Some guys posted some pictures of trout they caught in the WWon this board on the opener: http://driftless-skies.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl

Here is some new information will hopefuly clear up the debate/arguements about the DNR’s New regulation proposal.

I just got off the phone with Vaughn Snook DNR Area Fisheries Supervisor. I wanted to get a few things clarified about THEIR NEW TROUT REGULATION proposal. Below is what I found out!

1.Bait angling is proposed to be ALLOWED for ALL the C&R Seasons Including: Sept 15th thru Oct 15th, State Parks Season Oct 15th thru Dec 31st and the Winter Trout Season Jan 1st to the General Trout Opener. The General opener is always the Saturday closer to April 15th.

2. Under DNR’s proposal all C&R seasons will allow bait angling BUT NO HARVEST WILL BE ALLOWED DURING THOSE C&R SEASONS!

It appears there won’t be any regulation limitations for anything or anyone that I can see! END of arguement!

Post Extras:

Just got off the phone with Vaughn Snook DNR Area Fisheries Supervisor. I wanted to get a few things clarified about THEIR NEW TROUT REGULATION proposal. Below is what I found out!

1.Bait angling is proposed to be ALLOWED for ALL the C&R Seasons Including: Sept 15th thru Oct 15th, State Parks Season Oct 15th thru Dec 31st and the Winter Trout Season Jan 1st to the General Trout Opener. The General opener is always the Saturday closer to April 15th.

2. Under DNR’s proposal all C&R seasons will allow bait angling BUT NO HARVEST WILL BE ALLOWED DURING THOSE SEASONS!

It appears there won’t be any regulation limitations for anything or anyone that I can see! END of arguement!

I JUST called Vaughn Snook the DNR Assistant Fisheries Supervisor to run down a number of questions I had about the Hay Creek Electro-fishing data.

What I found out is quite a bit different than what was said in the original post.

1. The area the DNR electro-fished was not in the NEW H.I. area that the original post made it sound like it was.

2. The area the DNR did electro-fish was also NOT in the protective slot regs area of the stream.

3. The area they did electro-fish had some old H.I work but was managed under General Regulations. Which means the regulation allows all methods of angling and harvest.

4.The DNR wondered why someone would purposely try to drive anglers to the NEW H.I area on Hay Creek by making up false electro-fishing data. They thought it was alittle funny someone would do that especialy since that area has protective slot regulations. I wonder why someone would do that?

Below is the REAL Electro-fishing data collected on Hay Creek by our DNR. I couldn’t send the 2008 electro-fishing data along because it is locked in a PDF. However, Vaughn said the data from 2008 was about the same as 2009 maybe aliitle less 12 inch trout per mile.

Vaughn told me the DNR hasn’t electro-fished the area the NEW H.I. is in for YEARS.

Tom,

Here is what we have for estimated numbers of brown trout in the Hay Creek LTM station from October 5, 2009…

Adults/mile = 440

Recruits/mile = 689

Total estimated numbers of BNT’s = 1,129

Within the adult population above there is an estimated…

BNT’s >12 inches/mile = 65

BNT’s >14 inches/mile = 11

BNT’s >16 inches/mile = 5

These numbers have not been error checked and the official assessment is not completed and signed…so they could change somewhat….but not by much.

GPS Coordinates for the downstream end of the 975 ft station are Northing 4927798, Easting 534688

This station is NOT in the protected slot water.

The assessment from last year (2008) is attached.

Vaughn

The group that is responsible for sneaking in legislation to allow bait angling during the C&R NON HARVEST seasons was the MTA back when they were just another fishing club. However, the MTA is now a conservation group which NOW puts the resource first when making decisions that effect our trout resouce.

DNR Metro Area Fisheries proposed the regulations on the Vermillion, NOT TCTU. The only reason some special Regs allow bait angling is because other game species are present in those streams and SOME anglers fish for those species also. Remember the Vermillion is C&R No Kill JUST for trout, you can harvest pike and the other species.

The DNR implements “Artifical Lures & Flies Only Regulations” during NON Harvest Seasons or on CERTAIN streams they are trying to manage DIFFERENTLY to attain different goals than General Reg streams would allow.. This is done to provide diverse angling opportunities for anglers who don’t all want the samething for trout management. Excessive hooking mortality is taken into account when the DNR is trying to provide those different angling opportunities.

Your idea that fishing pressure is declining is true, However, That is true in every state and has NOTHING to do with different angling regulations. Your comment on that is just an assumption nothing more.

I really don’t get where your coming from with this idea that certain angler aren’t allowed opportunities to fish in the fall or winter. They are ALL allowed those opportunies, they just have to use different gear on SOME streams.

The excuse that one can’t fish simply because they can’t use bait is a weak excuse and getting VERY old. Even kids can learn to fish with lures and flies quite easily! I would severely question someones IQ if they can’t lean to fish by using other methods. Personally, I don’t know of anyone that just fishes using one method all the time!In other words there is NO excuse for not trying winter season fishing because the opportunity is there for everyone!

Here is another way of looking at it.

Lets look at the DNR’s proposed NEW seasons/regulations changes.

Sept. 30th to Oct.15th C&R Non Harvest Season. This is a totally new season which creates added opportunities to fish later in the fall with no lost angler opportunities.

Oct.16th to Dec 31 State Parks Only C&R Non Harvest Season.

This is another totally new season which creates added opportunities to fish later in the fall with no lost angling opportunities.

Jan 1st to to The General Trout Opener – Non Harvest C&R Season. ADD more Angling opportunities by opening ALL SE MN streams to the Winter Trout season. This INCLUDES allowing C&R Bait angling on 90% of the streams.

Change the current trout regulation to allow barbed hooks during ALL seasons. This eliminates the barbless hook rule.

This simplfys the regulations for ALL trout anglers.

The EXTENDED C&R seasons are NON HARVEST SEASONS. The DNR is allowing anglers added angling opportunities while still protecting our fisheries which means the gear used during those seasons should to be the kind that provides the lowest hooking mortality possible. That is why the NON HARVEST C&R SEASONS should be Artificals Lures & Flies only seasons.

ANYONE including kids can fish with lures or flies. The excuse that one can’t fish simply because they can’t use bait on every stream is a very weak excuse.

The General Harvest Season for regulations stays as is with the only exception being barbed hooks are now allowed for ALL seasons.

My brother In law is on the DNR electro-fishing crew I talked to him last night about where the electro-fishing was conducted on Hay Creek. He said, it was done on the old H.I project the trout groups and the DNR designed cooperatively together about 12 years ago. That area is downstream from the NEW H.I. area about two miles. I’m not surprised the old H.I. area had good numbers of trout in it. So actually they did shock in an H.I area on Hay Creek just not the NEW H.I. area!

Actually knowledgable trout anglers DON’T take it out of hand. WHY, because SE MN trout fisheries aren’t a stocked trout fishery any longer, they are WILD natural self sustaining fisheries with LIMITED numbers of large spawning size trout.

Our trout fishery is fragile. Why, because if you added up ALL the miles of trout water in SE MN and re-calculate the miles into acres, all we have in acres would be LESS than ONE 600 acre lake.

The other point is it easily predictable where the fish are are going to be in the stream, which makes it very easy to catch them, even if your a relatively poor angler.

A stream 15.3 feet wide and one mile long equals one acre.

If you read (or ask the DNR)the DNR’s electro-fishing data that they collect EVERY YEAR from their long term monitoring stations (I beieve those stations are on 26 different streams) you would know that on the AVERAGE there is only about a 100 trout per mile over 12 inches on most SE MN trout streams. Too successfully spawn, adult brown trout need to be approximately 12 inches in lenght or at least three years old.

If you look at the AVERAGE number of brown trout over 16 inches PER MILE in MOST trout streams in SE MN it is only around 5 PER MILE. Trout that are 16 inches are at least 4 years old and there isn’t many per mile on AVERAGE in most SE trout streams.

Now, if your a knowledgable DIE HARD trout angler you would be pretty protective of our SE trout fisheries too!

That is why dedicate trout anglers that are knowledgable about our SE MN fisheries are different than people who fish for warm water species.

The streams that have protective regulations designed to increase the numbers of trout per mile over 12 inches and have had stream restoration work completed on them often have over 300 trout per mile over 12 inches, with 25 per mile over 16 inches. That should give you a good idea why knowledgable trout anglers are different!

Just Saying

Under the DNR’s proposal there would be no lost opportunities for any trout anglers in the Fall. The reason for that is those opportunities don’t exist now! The DNR’s proposal is for increasing non harvest angling opportunities for anglers who want to fish later in the season. Their plan is geared at ADDING recreational angling opportunities but without allowing harvest. That means those who want to fish that season must fish with gear that severely reduces hooking mortality. A number of studies have shown hooking mortality with bait can be as high as 50% with lures and flies it is normally under 10%. Many times with flies it will be less that 5% and with certain single hook lures (small jigs) it can be that low too.

So, really what the DNR is doing is providing anglers the opportunity to catch fish later in the season but only with fishing gear that reduces hooking mortality. At the sametime the DNR is making sure our trout fisheries are protected from high hooking mortality problens that the use of other gear would create. So really the DNR is ADDING NEW opportunites not taking existing ones away. However, the choice of whether anglers want to fish the NEW extended season or not,is up to them.

If you want pigs you need to fish the mouth of Hay Creek where it dumps into the Mississippi. Besides, if you fish the new H.I area you will have LOTS of company!

When looking at DNR trout population data/figures you don’t add the numbers of trout over 12″ with those over 14 inches and those over 16 inches to give you a total. Example: if the DNR’s electro fishing data says there is 332 trout per mile over 12 inches that mean it INCLUDES ALL trout past 12 inches on up to whatever the largest size trout is they captured. in this case the total of all sizes of large trout over 12 inches is 332.

I should mention that for years the number of trout per mile in ALL streams in SE MN the DNR sampled by electro fishing AVERAGED TOGETHER was LESS than a 100 per mile over 12 inches. So when you start getting 300 + per mile over 12 inches that is considered EXCELLENT large fish numbers. Not poor, or average but way above average!

SE MN C&R Winter Trout season History In a Nut Shell!

(some might find this interesting)

The DNR implemented the original NON HARVEST C&R Winter Trout Season in SE MN back in 1985 or 1986. The DNR opened only two streams at that time to try it as an experiment. The first two streams opened were the Middle BR & South Br in Whitewater. The DNR had some worries about hooking mortality so they imposed “Artificial Lures & Flies Only” restrictions for Winter Season angling. They also implemented a two year research study that fishery Biologist Mike Hayes from Lake City Fisheries was in charge of. The study was initiated to see whether or not anglers were going to negatively impact natural reproduction and adult trout abundance. At the conclusion of that study the DNR found there was no evidence of any adverse effects from opening a C&R Winter Trout season. Once the study was completed the DNR decided to open more streams to winter angling. The expansion of opening more streams to winter angling has occurred at least three times since and has brought us to where we are now, which is thirty two streams.

The change to allow bait angling during the Winter Season occurred some time in the early to mid 1990’s the exact date I’m not sure of. The DNR did not propose or were they in favor of that change. The change was FORCED on them by legislation. A group that wasn’t a conservation group at the time had a legislator draft a bill which he attached to another bill as a RIDER and got the change done under the radar before the DNR could have a chance to publically oppose that legislation.

The current Winter Season regulation that allows bait angling isn’t something the DNR wanted, so just for the record I wanted to make sure people knew that!