Don
My 416 has the radius, a standard 416 Barrett which holds 25 less grains of powder has a standard shoulder.
If you ever get down this way let me know, if it works you can take a look and possibly send a round.
Didn’t mean to throw you off from a standard 416 Barrett
Jeff
A little ruff at the picture thing
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The big guns have more of a push versus a sharp kick, my 416 in which is a shortened necked down 50 cal pushes a 550 gr bullet at 3100 fps running 20N29 powder and the recoil is comparable to a 20 ga.
We get pushed out to 4029 yards now on the average and the rifle is very accurate. Usually you are allowed 5 rounds to hit the target and move to the next while under a time restraint so you have to have your act together. The wind reading is the biggest challenge especially in Kansas where the average winds a 35 mph
If you ever get down in the Marshfield area let me know
Pictured is the rifle and a loaded round next to a 260, we will see how I do at adding pictures
Very nice glad to see some stuff starting to be available again.
Cheers
JH
Good practice,very addictive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6VAyWZdNl8&feature=player_embedded
Cheers
Well said, some folks say it the way it is and some speak both sides of the blade. I prefer the good, the bad or the ugly it’s only one way.
If we didn’t venture and dabble with what folks say can’t be done with or without technology we may still be in the ice age. We only need to do it with respect to others and who or what we pursue.
I for one have only once, knelt beside a creature and appoligized for having to take a second shot with the highest respect for taking its life.
It’s very obvious that some folks just don’t fit in
Cheers
Quote:
I read what Grouse wrote and agreed with him. The pissing started with those who think because they can shoot Long Range, everybody can and we should keep our opinions to ourselves, because the anti’s will hear it ???
I can see where that was directed
It’s to bad I had the balls to get involved in this discussion. I never once indicated that if you where a responsible hunter you had to or should be at my or others level of long range shooting skills.
Yes I warned of internally breaking up a sport we all cherish.
Big-G I was ok with the response earlier and could see your point and reasoning, I didn’t think this quote was necessary when we all really do care about the sport.
Later
Cheers
Folks
Here again
Shooter skills
Shooters equipment
Shooters relation and respect for the game he or she is pursuing.
Anyone who is dedicated to the above is normally safety oriented in addressing the background and way points and reasonable distance they can shoot
Not at all…. are you saying shooting at a piece of paper at 500 yards, is the same as shooting at a live animal at 500 yards
To anyone that is serious about their shooting, yes the result and discipline as the result of the hit is the same.
If an animal of my choice would present itself in a relaxed position and in a shooting lane or area I have already deemed safe. Yes I would take the shot if I was confident with all the elements that will influence or affect the bullet flight.
Knowing your equipment. I would be aiming dead on and not guessing and I know at 500 yards – speed and energy at point of impact is 2169 fps at 3135 lbs of energy hitting the point of impact in a half of a second – 0.616 to be exact.
Paper does not matter if your off 6-8″… to that animal and to me as a hunter, it does. As a sportsman, unless I have 100% confidence in the shot, I do not take it…
The kill zone on a deer – 10” lung / heart area seems to do the job fine and seems to be acceptable in the Bowhunters game of thought as well as all the folks shooting 3D, so yes if you float anywhere in that zone with a rifle it’s a clean kill. Most of us all strive for a double lunger or heart shot.
In a controlled setting (range) you have berm’s or wide open cleared desert behind your shot. In the field, how can one know what is beyond their 500 yard shot ? Is it really safe ? Simple answer… no. their 500 yard shot ? Is it really safe ? Simple answer… no. I am sure we were all taught to know your target and what is beyond it…
I have seen more dumb [censored] happen at 200 yards and less, let alone the crap you hear from folks winging a luck shot hoping for a hit. This happens all the time no matter what folks are using and for what sport.
I can remember getting hit with birdshot while my father in-law and I were cutting wood with two chainsaws running on our land, seriously we can go on and on about this it happens in all sports of hunting. It should not matter if its 100 yards or 800 yards safety and responsibility need to be had, and there are a lot of folks that do try their best.
Ask yourself did you ever once take a luck shot hoping to connect, only a very few can honestly say they never did that.
Most folks who are at all responsible and skilled and have enough invested in their equipment and skills will pay attention to the fact of what’s behind their target seen and unseen.
The bottom line here, folks that are capable, responsible are very accurate, also consistent with their shooting and hunting skills are very safety oriented as well, knowing their equipment, their target and beyond. Most will set themselves up so that their vantage point allows for the bullet going through the animal or missing will land in a natural backdrop with the ability to see that no one is in that zone , this backdrop would be a natural gully, a bluff or hillside etc.
Those who depend on using a wood line as a bullet trap – which is common in many back yards are only asking a sad day, Growing up as a kid on a farm in the country I know for a fact that kids love to explore and don’t know better as far as trespassing let alone the adults that will stray. These are the concerns I have with all that use a wood line or brush beyond their practice targets.
I see/hear it too Grouse… in fact I was ELK hunting with a guy talking about the wind in the mountains and 600 yards shots… some of the stuff he said was shocking/scary to me.
Comes back to this
Shooter skills
Shooters equipment
Shooters relation and respect for the game he or she is pursuing.
Shooters common sense
There are a lot of good human beings out there that really try to do it all right be it with a rifle or bow, just because of the hype and drama kings that want to act cool, brag about what they done and dwell on attention well, those are the fools that will [censored] and blame everyone else for why they could not hit a simple target on a given day versus the folks that really do represent the better half of our great sport.
In any thing you always have the bad apples to deal with, just don’t get caught up in breaking apart something that we all cherish.
A few excerpts from the past here that kind of contradict all the concerns about safety and principles and knowing your equipment.
There were VERY few coyote signs in the open woods and other “backcountry areas” with the snow being very deep. The coyote movement appears to be concentrated near the cattle and farm areas where the walking is easy and the birds and rabbits are gathering. Prime movement areas included on frozen creeks, snowmobile trails, and there were tracks and doo-doo everywhere just out on the county roads. Basically, like everyone else, the coyotes are looking for easy walking.
Nice. Man, I LOVE putting the smackdown on pasture poodles.
Not sure if the ones shown represented the average size in CO, but if they did, those are HUGE compared to the average size I’ve hunted in SD and western WY. A lot of those looked more like groundhogs than p-dogs. All the better for the big splat.
A comment on the rangefinder. Nothing and I mean NOTHING messed up my ability to hit a p-dog worse than starting to use a rangefinder. It was a huge mistake because I was constantly catching myself second guessing and third guessing and forth guessing myself and making wild corrections or waiting too long to take the shot. Suddenly, I couldn’t have hit a bull in the [censored] with handful of rice. Even if the rangefinder told me the bull was well within rice range. Now I only take the rangefinder out to officially range a long hit. I didn’t even take it out of the pack on the last trip
My wind was blowing right to him, he just came out of some thick brush and was heading into some other thick stuff. I had no idea which direction he was going to take once he was in there and I was standing there talking to myself in awe over this thing. I finally came to my senses, rested the 30.06 on a limb, settled the crosshairs and fired away. The deer never knew what hit him and I finally got my wide one
Hope I was able to make a few viewpoints on your concerns Big-G take care
Shoot safe folks – let’s all stay aware and promote a safe sport around us
Cheers
A debatable but damaging subject to deal with
History has proven times over when a sport starts to turn against itself, folks that have no clue will take in what has been spoken as the facts and run with it. Good and Bad
Seriously there are folks that never shoot past 200 yards, in their minds anything beyond that is very un-sportsman like, a black eye to the sport. In this group as like the others there will be the folks that practice hard and those that don’t.
Distance really does not matter it could be 100 or 800 yards why? The problem and what what really pisses me off are the folks that will take a 200 yard shot as well as folks taking a 800 yard shot at a animal and the animal does not drop – I guess I must of missed since it did not drop and they are TO Dam Lazy to go look to see if there is any blood or signs of a hit let alone remember way points as to the location of the animal when shot. These are the folks that Black Eye the sport. It doesn’t have to be a long range shot.
The lay of the land and shooting habits sway from the east coast, mid-west states to the open west and south they are all different.
The bottom line is
Shooters ability
Shooters equipment
Shooters relation and respect for the game he is pursuing.
It does not matter if it is a 200 yard shot or an 800 yard shot
The majority of folks feed off of the marketing and hunting shows and everyone and their brother wants to ride in the fame, remember not all of what happens in the field is presented to the audience the way it really went down, be it a rifle hunt and or a bow hunt. I have seen both sides of the camera and know better. Media is good but it also miss leads many that don’t know any better, retail manufacturing only keys in on the flow with the trends and cash flow, what’s hot is hot, all driven off of marketing with the media.
So be careful what you express as you debate and pick things apart, never assume or go off of hear- say. You are only trying to tare apart a sport that you have just because it doesn’t drop in your favor.
Again I will state there are a lot of hunters in this country that shoot 1000s of rounds at extended ranges in their Comfort Zones. That will exceed any distance that you may be comfortable. Only because they do have the lay of the land to do so and with the respect to the animal that they intend to hunt, because they developed the skill level and have the equipment to accomplish this task.
And a peace of mind you do NOT need a fancy bench and shooting rest to shoot extend long range targets with accuracy and repetitiveness.
Just an example, last weekend a youth shoot held at a local club
Not the greatest picture sent to me but you can get the idea on the impacts, a fun shoot I was there to watch.
16 kids shot a rifle that they never seen before, they were only allowed one shot at a target at 425 yards
The rifle was an off the shelf store bought 30-06 Tikka rifle with a 3×9 Leupold scope
16 kids age 12 to 17 shot at this target only having one chance and shooting off of sand bags
The closest to the center won the gun
15 shots would have killed a deer at 425 yards – this was about the possible shooting skills that can be had, not about shooting a deer.
Wind conditions steady and pushing an average of 10” at that distances that day.
The kids had a separate target to look at prior to shooting, showing the target dot and the bullet impact of a few rounds that I had test fired prior to the event that morning to give them an understanding of what the wind was doing to the bullet.
The rest was up to them.
Cheers
It’s been a really long day, I just came across this thread and a good discussion started. I may add to this later.
Shown is how 98% of my long distance shooting takes place, off the bi-pod prone, probably the most stable and accurate position unless you are a F-class shooter using a bench and a F-class stand/bi-pod system.
Cheers
There are a many theories on resizing and reloading
My only opinion is that as long as every piece of brass is resized the same with no shortcuts, then prepped and reloaded the same. The end result will be the same as far as accuracy.
All my ammo is full length sized with neck bushings used for the proper neck tension I need
All brass after being sized will be trimmed for length – thus being the same for a consistent release under pressure.
Folks can load and take many shortcuts or get lazy with the process with good success yet will have fliers that the wind must of pushed or the yardage was off a little or the scope, the rifle, and on and on, some will have a lot of reasons if they have to print it on a paper or steel target. Sooner or later it catches up. Some just get lucky. But in time it weeds out, and the folks who are a little picky about the process have less issues.
Annealing? – every time a piece of brass is fired in a rifle and then the neck is resized for another bullet be it full length resizing or only neck sizing the neck area of the brass gets harder –more brittle and less responsive to sizing with this an inconsistence tension upon release.
The annealing process which I do every round softens the neck and shoulder area to extend the useful life of the brass, maintains a more consistent neck tension while seating bullets as well as upon release while building pressure. It pays for itself big time with consistent accuracy down range when depended on, less time and money spent with load development maintenance and saves money when being able to stretch out the useful life on expensive brass, heck any time you can save a little it adds up, doesn’t have to be high-end brass.
It may be that some folks except a rifle that shoots 2 moa or even 1 moa at close ranges and figure it’s the rifle or shooter that opens up when at 300 yards or more and that is just the way it is. These folks would not really care about all the tech info for the most part.
I run into many farmers in my job that bring up the shooting subject and when you mention to them that you shoot at small targets at 500 out to 2000 and beyond they think you’re a whack. For the most part most folks think 300 yards is crazy. So here again they may be right because of what they have to work with. Yes we have some expensive rifles some not some more, but with that most of you know that there are a few factory off the shelf rifles that won’t break the bank that shoot lights out.
I probably have rambled on to long again,. Hope some of this helps
Cheers
Jeff
You have to be careful with your statements
Faster twist
Long barrels
Because a faster twist stabilizes a heavier bullet…a good thing…more energy, less windage issues and a longer effective useable range.
A longer barrel allows for a better burn/usable pressure range thus giving the shooter the ability to use the above application to its full potential.
A good example will be my 38” 9 twist barrel using H50BMG and pushing a 414 grain 375 cal. bullet which will run 3250 fps without any pressure issues.
With a stepped down BC grid, I still will only have to dial around
44.4 mils at 3520..dial and hold hash marks
10.2 mils at 1760..dial
4.3 mils at 1000..dial
That being zeroed at 100
Stuck in a snow storm, hopefully not to technical here
Cheers
With the complete white out Blizzard and winds we have here, I would suggest getting together for a few beers and a burger and talk guns.
Hook
Sometime on my travels to and from my trusted smith in Nebraska we should get together in Rochester for such a thing.
Cheers
Quote:
Jeff, thanks for putting this together!
Exactly what I was looking for. Couldn’t believe how many cordless drill/socket videos i saw on youtube. I could never imagine that they would get great consistency with that.
Interesting point on the heat paints. I wouldn’t have thought that they would vary as much.Besides the cost of the machine, any accessories that need to be considered?
Just a couple of propane tanks and something to ignite the flames, an old fashion cutting torch lighter works better than a cig lighter.
cheers
Annealing can be another controversy subject but at the end the basics needed are easy to accomplish.
Why anneal?
First it – Saves brass
For folks that tend to shoot a lot and reload annealing extends the life of the brass. Every time we resize and or fire the round we are work hardening the brass. As this process happens the shoulder area become harder and does not set back as easy from one loading session to another, in turn your process of maintaining 1 to 2 thousands set back for your head space becomes more difficult to maintain.
The other, is as the work hardening effect takes place your necks will start to crack or split from resizing and firing, then you now have a piece of worthless brass, (save these for your test pieces) for setting up your annealer.
Second it – Improves consistency in accuracy.
Pretty much what it states, being able to have brass that resizes from one piece in the batch to another almost identical and being able to see what your small adjustments make while working your brass.
The benefits that also can attribute to annealing is what folks will see when seating their bullets, the neck tension will be very consistent through the whole batch, as you press the bullets they will all feel the same and with about the same amount effort as when the brass was new, think about this the same reaction takes place as pressure builds on the release side when firing. This is the reason some folks lube their bullets or inner necks on the brass prior to seating bullets so as the pressure builds they can get a more consistent group down range – bullet to case lubing is another subject on its own
This in turn allows the shooter to have a batch of bullets that will group within a given area as long as all steps of loading and as well shooting follow through as well – accuracy in a rifle is only as what can be achieved by the rifle, load and the person pulling the trigger, let alone have to deal with the weather conditions as well.
Annealing brass
This is heating the area where the neck contacts the shoulder, in turn softens the area of the neck and the shoulder area. This is your area to focus on nothing else
The sides of the brass and especially the case head area (the bottom area that holds the primmer) need to stay hard. Repeat you do not heat or anneal the sides or base (case head area) of the brass.
As stated by Randy there are a lot of computer key board annealers in this country, some mean well and some go off of my biggest pet peeve, (passing on info only on assuming, heard from a friend who heard from a friend and key board freaks after a few drinks)
I keep it very simple
Focus the flame in the correct area
Use a few damaged or aged pieces of brass for test purposes when setting up
Make sure your outside and inside of you necks are cleaned up – for consistency again
A light polish on a rag will clean up the outside neck area
A brush used in your prep system will do a fast cleaning of residue on the inside
The cleaning process should already be done while cleaning and resizing your brass prior to annealing.
Setup your system with a test piece and fire up the system — shut off your lights pull the shades whatever but get the room fairly dark, as you apply the flame to the correct area watch from the top side and keep it in the flame until you see the inside of the neck area starting to turn a dull red- burgundy color its done.
At this point mine drop into a cardboard box to cool down. Some folks say water, none of us around here use water. With that said the two common annealer companies do not require water either.
I keep records with mine on what each caliber averages, speeds up the setup time later on, I mark my info right on the box that catches the warm brass (average seconds needed) 338LM, 260, 6.5×47 etc.
If you have large amounts of brass that when weight sorted for loading purposes with a wide range in the weight of the brass then run a test piece through to make sure the very light pieces don’t have a chance of turning bright orange on the inside versus the heavy brass – this only becomes an issue when there is a huge spread in brass weight due to multiple manufactures or of the sort. This does not have to be rocket science or technical just a little common sense as far as weight differences and batches, just watch the color
I bought a Bench Source for all of my work –works great
My shooting partner has a Giraud annealer – works great but the Bench Source has it beat a little
I use a homemade powered arrow spinner / holder and a hand held torch for doing the 50 BMG
We have come to the point that we anneal every time after sizing the brass, just another quick step in the process of accuracy and fun stuff shooting
Pictures shown
My annealer with a few pieces of 338LM test brass
Flame position aiming to the area of the neck and shoulder, when in the flame the brass spins on the Bench Source – nice
In the dark, looking from above checking my time setting and watching for the dark red burgundy color inside the neck area as its heating up – my 338Lm brass averages 3.8 seconds flame time with the two torches
A finished piece of brass — a special note annealing is not about the color change on the outside, pay attention and watch for the dark red – Burgundy color when in the flame on the inside of the brass neck area, then you have it right. This is a lot easier and more accurate than using temp paints that melt and change color due to heat changes but also as the flame hits them. That’s why I prefer the simple tell all signal and that’s the Dark Red – Burgundy color signal. Not bright orange before pulling out.
Hope the info helps
Cheers
Jeff
Quote:
What is an acceptable level of tolerance when it comes to OAL? 50 thousands is a pretty small number in reality.
When speaking of what tolerances are acceptable, you then are better off paying attention to your COAL, thus using a comparator and measuring off of the ogive versus the tip.
This will give you a true indication on how your factory or custom reloads are as far as consistency in one bullet from another of the same brand or profile in relation to the distance to the lands for consistency.
Mine stay within 0 to 3 thousands for the majority, annealing helps maintain neck tension which in return gives a consistent seating and release under pressure as long as you are picky and consistent with everything else
Watching only you’re over all length – OAL.
The problem with over all lengths – OAL,
Is the Meplat (tip) can be damaged and easily throw you off a few thousands from one bullet to the next (when measuring)unless you are using tipped bullets such as the Hornady amax or of the like.
Cheers
Jeff
Tom
I take it you read the article on Parallax vs Focus on the Long Range Hunting site and seen the segment from CatShooter and Dave King, they had some good input on the subject.
Defiantly a good read, glad you passed it on.
http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f18/parallax-vs-focus-1988/
Cheers
Jeff
Jake
Didn’t mean to stall out your thread as far as ideas for doing your own fletch work, I’m not really sure why but this tends to happen at times when I post.
Anyhow I hope folks will continue to give you advice as far as ideas on fletching equipment and setups.
Take care to all folks and family at IDO and Merry Christmas as well
Cheers
Jeff Heeg
Jake47
Bitzenberger
Pm me your address and I will send you one.
100 Gr. Sierra Gameking
Lapua Brass
36 gr IMR 4064
Federal GM 210M primers
2.658 OAL (.010 off the lands)
.271 bushing (.002 nk tension)
Shot in a stock Remington 700 SPS with a 9 1/8 twist barrel
105gr AMAX
47.0gr Retumbo
CCI 200 primers
Lapua brass
2.284 to ogive,
0.12 in. jump
9 1/8 twist
Cheers
You can always add an adjustable cheek weld pad to your stock.
Karsten makes a model that is used on a lot of rifles as well as getting a sleeve model that you add foam layers to until you get just the right amount of height preferred these usually have ammo storage or a pouch for distance info etc to be stored in.
Cheers
Quote:
Quote:
It must be nice to be able to shoot suppressed.
This is on my list of thing to do now that I’m in Wisconson. I like that Accuracy International rifle in the 3rd pic. Or looks like one anyway. I’d love to have that if it is.
6.5×47 Lapua
A very repeatable tack driver for sure, a Savage LRP action on a Brux barrel mounted in a Mcree chassis with a Night Force scope on top and a SRT suppressor up front wearing a TAB Gear anti mirage cover.
Running Lapua brass, RL15 powder pushing 139 gr Lapua Scenar bullets
A great day for shooting, a few pics from the Ft. McCoy shoot
Another great day for shooting, plenty of wind with gust hitting the 30s, alot of very good shooters from WI. IL. MI. MN.
With all the wind targets were still dropping all the way out to 1000 meters under a time restraint.
Congrats to all
Cheers
Quote:
Heavy fog here this morning for the WI youth duck hunt
Sure glad you were not anywhere near town Saturday morning, I ended up pulling a large piece of farm equipment from Marshfield to Watertown and was thinking how nice it was out and why I wasn’t in a tree yet, fog sucks pulling large heavy equipment.
Cheers
I know it sucks and can wreck a good weekend and or lifetime investment, but sometimes we bring this upon ourselves by leaving things exposed in our vehicles. I know this is not the case always but it is for the majority and sometimes for strutting our stuff or bragging rights that tend to back fire at times.
Sorry to hear the news
Cheers
I checked what my supplier; they had on hand in 9mm
124 gr Hornady XTP 25 rds $18.00 – 124 boxes
147 gr Hornady XTP 25 rds $18.00 – 207 boxes
limited to 10 boxes of any one kind per customer
shipping – flat rate of $7.95
So I guess there is some ammo around for some folks
Cheers
Folks
Just in case you did not see the change, Fort McCoy will be shutting Rifle Range 2 down for Sunday’s event. Once in a while this this can happen do to priorities within our system.
So here is the change within the events:
Friday
Located at Hand Gun range 1
Pistol round 7 – 30 meters
Note: weather permitting after the hand gun events are done they will move to the Rifle Range 2 and allow folks to practice and confirm impacts in the afternoon.
Saturday
Located at rifle range 2
First match event
Can be shot standing in a pit, kneeling or prone – most folks go prone
100 to 500 meter short course 40 targets individual shooter event — can have a spotter
Each individual shooter will have 40 targets and allowed 80 rounds
A great time
Then the second match event
Most folks go prone
2 man team event 20 targets 500 to 1000 meters
Each shooter will have 20 targets and 40 rounds of ammo allowed
Also a great event as well
Then the Zombie
2 man team event Zombie Chaos run 100 to 1000 meters 64 targets total possible
Shooters have unlimited rounds
16 targets stand up until hit for a total of 3 minutes
Then they all stand up again
16 targets stand up until hit for a total of 2 minutes
Then they all stand up again
16 targets stand up until hit for a total of 1 minute
Then they all stand up again
16 targets stand up until hit for only a total of 30 seconds
A Blast!
Safety meeting for Friday’s handgun round, paperwork, and entry fee at hand gun range 1 will be at 9:00 am sharp- if anything be a little early.
Safety meeting for Saturday’s rifle events, paperwork if not done yet, and entry fee will be at 7:00 am sharp -here again if you have not taken care of the paperwork yet try to show up a little early.
I will say that the sweet part about shooting here is everything runs smooth and fast, be it a beginner or experinced, you will do well, there are plenty of folks willing to answer any questions you have for a good day of shooting.
After each event is finished the results are on paper and ready to annouce before most folks have their equipment packed up. The complete range is divided into six identical ranges that have targets stand up, drop if hit and lay down if the alloted time runs out for a hit. This is all done by a computer programed system. After the last shot is fired they just hit print and the results are listed by hits and time- very fast results.
Hope to meet some new folks and see some old friends.
If you know you are for sure coming let me know, Nick prefers to get an idea as far as possible shooter numbers.
There is a designated bleacher area behind the hot line/shooters area for folks that are not shooting any of the events and want to come and watch.
Safety is always stressed here but not to the point being over excessive.
But with that said, please keep any alcholic beverages off the base
On Saturday, unless something changes, we will have a truck show up around noon with hot & cold food and drinks for lunch. Gut truck with actually good food.
As stated earlier membership and shooting fees cover misc. insurance, and base fees.
But all in all its cheap entertanment and fun, and a bunch of us have walked away with table prizes for finishes that supersede any fees.
Here is a link for more info
http://www.northcoastshooters.com/index_files/Page2858.htm
$50.00 rooms at the Super 8 in Tomah a few minutes away from base
Cheers
Jeff
Attention
Range 2 will be shut down Sunday.
Sundays 500 to 1000 meter event will be shot on Saturday.
Cheers
