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Hi Guys,

I just ran across this discussion on your new Gen 2 Touch. Note the training videos on the first page.

Here is the link:

http://www.thehulltruth.com/marine-electronics-forum/457309-hds-gen2-touch-first-impressions.html

Enjoy (note: I am NOT a LOW guy anymore) .

Roger

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Thanks Roger …

This shot is too big to post here, it is the full 1280 x 800 resolution on the new HDS Gen2 Touch. I took this screenshot on Saturday on Inanda Dam, KZN, South Africa.

http://www.fishtec.co.za/fishtec%20lowrance%20john%20easton%20104.jpg

Sounds Exciting! We having huge problems with the i-Pilot here in the Southern Hemisphere, so a link between HB & MK will be awesome.

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Doc here is what Humminbird told me on this question when I asked about my 987csi.

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“Denny O,

Just like the other Si units we have or have built; the Di sonar comes from the Si sonar so it would be the full width of the SI sonar if set to the Wide mode. I don’t know what the width would be when on the other Down Imaging Beam Width menu settings.

_________________

Greg Walters at Humminbird”

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100%

The Humminbird and Lowrance units are quite different in their respective performances using these 2 frequencies. The Humminbird is best in on the 455kHz (unless very shallow), and the Lowrance is best on 800kHz.

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BTW, you didn’t answer my question why you have both mounted on the same boat????

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I own FishTec:-

FishTec S.O.S (School of Sonar)

Doc,
The structure is basically a whole lot of ‘little white dots’ making up the tree in this case. My rule of thumb is if the little white dots are suspended, then there is a good chance that it is fish. If your tree seems to look like its got a whole lot of Xmas lights in it like mine in the standing tree example, the first step would be to turn the contrast down to about 60. If they all diappear, then they are probably not fish, but if some little lights remain, then those are probably fish.

I troll a lot too, and since I’ve had DownScan, I won’t even attempt a run with lures out unless I’ve checked it out first with DownScan and 83kHz split screen. It works!

My last camera, the Pentax Optio W20 is only meant to go to 6ft, but after several years of abuse at +40ft it has finally packed up. I now use the Canon PowerShot D10.

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Interesting speculation above, that’s for sure.

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I see my transducer like a directional microphone, which it really is if you come to think of it.

If I was standing in the wide open great outdoors (deep water), pointing my microphone at lets say a bird in a tree, that microphone is designed to concentrate primarily on the bird. Of course it’s going to pick up other noises too, but the bird is the target and that should be the ‘loudest’.

Take the same directional microphone and use it in a subway tunnel (shallow water), and I think you are going to hear all sorts of noises from all over the place.

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My information, direct from the engineers, is that the quoted sonar cones are all measured at the (industry standard) -10 dB level, and that there is useful, usable information outside of those quoted cones.

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Like this image explains Jason ……….. sorry for the repeated image gentlemen.

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I think a more appropriate term instead of “gap” would be the sonar beams for side imaging are weakest directly under the boat.

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I agree with you, but Humminbird themselves say that they only have 84 degrees from the surface down.

Strengths and Coverage:

Most of us anglers are pretty much up to speed on how the conventional 2D cone shaped sound wave works. I.e 20° @ 200kHz, 60° @ 83kHz, stronger in the centre and weaker around the edge. This is why we get an arc with thin tails on either end. The other thing we know about these ‘cones’ is that the transducer listens to a lot more than what is labeled as 20° @ -10dB, and these outer ‘areas’ are called the ‘outer lobes’. It is these outer lobes that generally cause all the clutter seen on your screen. Humminbird’s technology filters this clutter, but can be switched on or off with the SwitchFire feature.

When it comes to high frequency sonar, we are generally not all that clued up on the inner workings due to lack of transparency by the manufacturers for obvious security reasons. And therefore opinions and presumptions become the only source of information like this one I’m feeding you right now.

This diagram below is taken from the Humminbird 1197c SI user manual page 53 under the heading ‘Understanding Side Imaging’. (2009 model)

Like the 83kHz and 200 kHz I believe the 455kHz too has a higher and a lower strength area. I have added shading to demonstrate the 455kHz beam’s higher and lower strength areas as I have come to understand them.

From the top of the side beam (closest to the surface) to lets say in this example, an angle of an estimated 45°, the beam strength will slowly increase from lets say 5/20 to 20/20, like an eye test. After all, sonar is really just our ‘eyes’ under the water. From this angle to nearly directly beneath the boat, the strength of the beam decreases rapidly once again. This is why I believe Humminbird say 84° coverage in the 455kHz, and not 90°, due to this rapid drop in strength.

This is however not a constant angle to the left and right, but rather one that changes depending on depth. The sound wave, being a mechanical wave, and will bounce off objects, especially big objects like the sea bed or bottom of the dam especially in the shallows.

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I think Fishton’s apolgy on BBC on this issue is a good start. There are many images showing the SI beams looking straight down with mirror images on both right and left sides.

web page

Or the apolgy he made to T Mike on the Humminbird forum here about the “gap” on the down imaging.

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I am busy working on an article at the moment that will incorporate all our ‘views’ (T Mike, Doug and myself) as I see it.

I need to use diagrams to explain myself better, and this takes time and effort. Coming soon to a forum near you! lol

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So when imaging using the LSS-1 at 455khz or 800khz there isn’t any other frequencies being transmitted at all (if you turn off 2d?) Both the side and down crystals use those two frequencies only?

Thanks for your time. Would love to see some more of the Lowrance lss-1 images if you get a chance.

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That’s right fishwater.

No problem, I will post more screenshots.

fishwater,

The Lowrance works different to the Humminbird in that it is using Broadband technology in the 50/83/200kHz range, depending on the transducer. The LSS-1 High Frequency Side and Down Scan is a totally independant unit with it’s own unique transducer using seperate crystals for left, right and down. Whereas the Humminbird currently is only using left and right crystals and using software to try cover the gap directly beneath the boat. Keep in mind too that all the Lowrance HDS units with the LSS-1 use 455 OR 800kHz for super sharp high contrast and definition images. The 798cSI for example only has 455kHz.

I got to see Humminbird’s Down Imaging directly under the boat today! I jacked my sensitivity right up to 20 (MAX) and there it was, you are quite right. Apologies go out to T Mike.

My GPS receiver and SI Hi-Def transducer are within very close proximity.

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Just a quick question… Why do you have both setups mounted in the boat? I’m not trying to be contrary …

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Yes you are. LOL

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Well, you clearly have your Lowrance figured out, which isn’t surprising since you had your hands on that structure scan module for months in advance of its release over here. Enjoy it!

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I wish the guys who got the Humminbird DI software months ahead of the rest of us had done the same. Enjoy it.

Here is a smaller banner: –

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Jason Halfen:- One of the issues that you probably have missed, since you are just starting off with Humminbird’s DI, is the ability to change the Down Imaging width, or range (I can’t remember the term that is used in the menu structure). The DI range can be set to narrow, to focus on objects that are directly under the boat, or wide, to capture objects that are just off to the side as well. In fact, if I remember correctly, there are 3 settings: narrow, medium, and wide.

Fishton Reply:- – I tried the different widths, anything less than wide, when looking at a brushpile or tree in less than 100ft, gave absolutely no return whatsoever.

Jason Halfen:- If I had to guess, I suspect that you are collecting information on the wide setting, and have scanned a tree that is just out of the 2D cone, so it is absent in 2D but captured by DI.

Fishton Reply:- 100% correct, therefore this is not DOWN imaging.

Jason Halfen:- Humminbird is the only company to offer their users the ability to select their Down Imaging range, rather than being stuck with one single, factory determined setting.

Fishton Reply:-

I say this (and images) with a ton of respect for you Jason.

But I really need to wrap my mind around this whole ‘Down’ story.

Update:- HB’s Down Imaging is definitely NOT looking directly beneath the boat (see image). But I have no doubt that their engineers are working on it as we speak.

I tried some new settings today with some pleasing results.

Settings:

Unit: 1197cxSI
Frequency: 455kHz
Chart speed: 4
DI view: wide
DI Sensitivity: 17
Pallette: Brown
Speed: 2.1kph

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The higher sensitivity certainly makes a massive difference to the cover (trees). The ground however becomes a bit washed out.

Converting sonar logs to highly detailed charts using DrDepth is a major draw card, not to mention DownScan ……… WoW!

Thanks FDR, and I sure will.

*I never even put a line in the water yesterday, just fiddling with electronics. But the weekend is just around the corner …

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… My personal thought is that the HB was not dialed in… but who am I to say. Not calling the other poster a fake but just think maybe he was more framiliar with LOW products. No offence man.
–Mark

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The Chucker,

It was my first day out with the new software by Humminbird, and you are probably quite right – maybe I’m not running it at it’s optimum. Hopefully time on the water will get me up to scratch with this new upgrade.

Thanks Ruger2506

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I take Fishton’s pictures with a grain of salt. I’m not accusing anybody of anything. However Fishton could have easily posted pictures where the Lowrance images are completely optimized and the Humminbird images are not optimized. I would need to do a side by side comparison myself or see it done to know the authenticity of the images.

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Ouch!

I love my Lowrance HDS8 AND Humminbird 1197cxSI and have been using these brands on my boats for many years. (Side by Side)

The thread was created as a form of fun and education, not mud slinging.

I am sure with time we will learn how to use the ‘Down’ imaging by HB more effectively, but it is very important to understand that it IS the SIDE Imaging that is making up the ‘Down’ Image.

I love both my units (HDS8 & 1197cxSI), and have used Lowrance and Humminbird on my boats for many years.

If anyone has any tips or ideas on how to improve the Down Imaging, it will be appreciated.

This thread is not about mud slinging, its about all of us learning together.

I made this banner to add a bit of fun to the thread, so lets keep it light and fun. Thanks Guys!

640 vertical pixels is very nice!

Thanks Jason,

I know this is a real pain what I’m about to ask, but it certainly would answer a LOT of questions coming in at the moment.

Any chance of strapping an SI transducer to your trolling motor and doing a couple of Down Imaging screenshots for us?

Jason,

How is the transducer mounted on the trolling motor going to effect the DI readings? For SI I know it’s bad news unless looking under docks from the shallow side. But my gut feel is that the Down Imaging will not be affected too much.

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I installed mine “backwards” with the cable coming off the rear end of the transducer so I didn’t have to bend it tightly against the transom, then I used that menu selection to reverse left and right and it shows everything in its proper place.

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Hi Allan,

But I think cable aft is default – just double check when cruising along a steep drop off or jetty.

Thanks for the kind comments guys. I just love spending time with these new gadgets, nearly as much fun as actually catching fish.

I sometimes feel like an ex-bird hunter that has become a bird photographer.