Wolf Map (2018 survey)

  • ClownColor
    Inactive
    The Back 40
    Posts: 1955
    #1868893

    https://files.dnr.state.mn.us/wildlife/wolves/2018/survey-wolf.pdf

    Did they get your area right? Our township, though indicated as a shaded area, had NO packs/single listed…we have two fairly large packs. Nearest pack per their data is 2 townships over. I really wish they’d ask for hunter help. We cover WAY more area as a group then the CO’s possible could. Not their fault as they are really understaffed but why not use the resources they have? Simple questionnaire when you buy a license could shine more light.

    onestout
    Hudson, WI
    Posts: 2698
    #1868900

    Because politicians don’t care about real data.

    blank
    Posts: 1775
    #1868902

    Do you really expect to get an honest answer from a hunter’s questionnaire?

    big_g
    Isle, MN
    Posts: 22410
    #1868907

    Camp Ripley deer herd can attest to the Wolf numbers in there… last I heard there a 2 healthy packs in there.

    ClownColor
    Inactive
    The Back 40
    Posts: 1955
    #1868913

    Do you really expect to get an honest answer from a hunter’s questionnaire?

    Data points my son…Data points. 12+ hunters claim to have wolves in that area, it would be easy for them to verify with boots on the ground.

    Nothing’s perfect…but it could give everyone a better idea. We use mass surveys in our line of work. There’s fudge factors built in. They DNR has s huge resource of hunters…why not use it?

    Tom Sawvell
    Inactive
    Posts: 9559
    #1868925

    A friend in Two Harbors swears there are three large packs in about a twenty square mile area around the town. The cabin is 10 miles from Two Harbors and hearing wolves howling is common….first one bunch then answered by another. Seeing wolves at woods edges and on the edges of fields and clear cuts is nothing at all unusual. I watched a yearling deer at a salt lick in the yard bolt like the fear of god was cast down on it only to see a wolf pass thru the lane twenty yards from where that deer was. We’ve had wolves in the cabin yard hanging around like it was a social spot. Seeing a wolf at the Two Harbors city limits is not at all uncommon. Duluth has urban wolf issues….as in dining on Moppy while she’s out for a tinkle.

    I understand the need for wolves to be a part of the food chain but I don’t understand the logic applied to protecting them. I think we have too many bleeding hearts that feel like they should be able to drive out in the country and hear howling…..at will. I feel we have about 3000 too many wolves to consider it a healthy number. I also feel that the only challenges that should come regarding the hunting of wolves should come from the state considering the hunt…..not from some chick judge in North Carolina that doesn’t know squat about wolves and their relationship to deer management.

    Wolf numbers in the far north where Canada borders Minnesota has likely got skewed numbers because there is no way to tell how many wolves from the Canadian side are here at any given time. Wisconsin has wolves…how many of those travel into Minnesota? Or vice versa. Wolves are such mobile creatures that I don’t think any serious numbers can be applied to any given area. A pack can travel 20 miles a day easily Here today, gone tomorrow but if the count was today it can’t be an accurate assessment because they are gone the next day.

    I say have about five years of serious wolf hunting allowed and monitor the deer herd sizes in those hunted areas. If the deer rebound, then you know the wolves were decimating the herds. I don’t see much of any need to have more than one wolf pack in any given county. Wolves are supposed to be mythical….keep their numbers low enough that they actually are just that, mythical.

    lindyrig79
    Forest Lake / Lake Mille Lacs
    Posts: 5775
    #1868945

    I think we have too many bleeding hearts

    Tom I agree with you on this. Most of our society problems can be attributed to the bleeding heart liberals.

    Pailofperch
    Central Mn North of the smiley water tower
    Posts: 2918
    #1868948

    This is fairly common at our property between Browerville and Cushing. Sorry for fuzzy pics.

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    Pailofperch
    Central Mn North of the smiley water tower
    Posts: 2918
    #1868951

    More

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    Pailofperch
    Central Mn North of the smiley water tower
    Posts: 2918
    #1868953

    Nother

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    buckybadger
    Upper Midwest
    Posts: 8100
    #1868962

    I agree and think the estimations are likely a very inexact measurement. I also understand their role in the environment and want MN to have a managed population. I have no problem with hunting them and hope to harvest one some day. Their population needs to be kept in-check.

    Now on a completely different note, can people stop using “dog attacks” or “injured dogs” as a justification for lowering wolf populations? If you live in wolf territory and let your dog roam freely, you are the problem and not the animals involved. If a hunting dog is injured or even killed running well known wolf territory, the same can be said. It’s a decision made by the dog handlers understanding the risks involved. If one cannot comprehend that, they are just as much of an uneducated problem as a bleeding heart liberal protecting wolves at all costs.

    mplspug
    Palmetto, Florida
    Posts: 25026
    #1868978

    I wanna know how people know they have more than one pack in an area?

    Tom Sawvell
    Inactive
    Posts: 9559
    #1868981

    I wanna know how people know they have more than one pack in an area?

    While wolves are social animals and like to communicate by howling, howling also helps them keep track of who’s who on their marked territory. Members of one pack are together, not spread all over. So howling is one way to determine both pack size and numbers of packs within a four to five mile area. Their howling can be heard for several miles. I’ve heard three distinctly different packs howling at one time at the cabin.

    Visual sightings are another way, but maybe not as accurate as those doing the studies think. Like any alpha predator, if they don’t want to be seen, they won’t be… meaning fly overs alert the dogs to what’s coming long before the plane or helicopter gets remotely close and they disappear like magic. It would take a very concerted effort of many seriously good spotters to coordinate a grid to be covered simultaneously by driving and counting locations of sightings within that grid and noting the exact time said sighting occurred. BUT, this would have to take place in one day, statewide for accuracy….remember that these packs can travel a long ways in a 24 hour period: 20 miles is nothing and 50 miles has been reported.

    Lack of game is perhaps the best indicator. A pack of 6 wolves with 4 pups will have to kill a deer every 2-3 days….throughout the entire year. Greater pack size, greater the need for more deer to be killed. Areas where deer populations were normal and healthy have seen near decimation inside of a year when two or three or more packs encompass that area. At our cabin last year we had no trouble seeing perhaps thirty deer in two days in the yard thru the daytime. We’ve seen three deer in the yard so far this year, one right along with a wolf sighting within a minute of each other.

    Bucky brings up another very valid point on the dogs. Last year a report of a guy grouse hunting with his dog having a run-in with a wolf near Isabella. In my opinion if people are going to use dogs to hunt in wolf territory they had better be very ready to break the law if they want their dog to survive an encounter because they’ll likely have to shoot the wolf, which at the time is a federal offense. Be appraised that the only time one can justify shooting a wolf out in the wilds is when a person is in eminent danger, not a dog. A bit different if one is at home and a wolf enters property and threatens livestock, which can include a dog.

    Personally I think the federal protection order placed on these animals has outreached its intent, across the nation as a whole. What was established as a way to help get the species back on its feet is now run afoul. Way too many wolves. Wayyyyyyy too many. If this isn’t turned around very soon I’m sure people will start enforcing the 3S management plan a bit more rigorous than it already is and I don’t dunn this at all.

    To support my bleeding heart comment, I’ll use an example from two years ago. Ma and I drove to Brimson just for a drive and to stop and have a cold beer. While there a DNR officer came in and was cussing like crazy saying he just ticketed a Twin Cities couple who were feeding “the wolf pups up the road” Apparently a wolf pack stashed the pups near a nearby road and they’d wander out and snoop along the shoulder. People driving would see them and start feeding them. The DNR had warnings against doing so on local tv/radio stations as well as signs warning against doing so posted in three directions. People still fed the darn things. After a while I’m sure the wolves could smell human on the pups or too close to where they were dumped and decided to move the drop site…yes people were handling the damned pups. Lots of these do-gooders were calling in to the dnr saying the need to do something with these cute little abandoned puppies located at such and such location. When they checked they found food wrappers all over left after the pups gnawed thru the plastic and found pup feces with plastic in it. The dnr had a heck of a time, not keeping the people safe, but rather the wolf pups. Idiot bleeding heart people.

    tegg
    Hudson, Wi/Aitkin Co
    Posts: 1450
    #1868991

    I see the estimated wolf range now includes pretty much all of Chisago and half of Isanti Co.

    gimruis
    Plymouth, MN
    Posts: 17204
    #1868993

    I think radio collared wolves also play a role in tracking specific animals, as the link says by the OP. Remember, this is a population estimate, not an exact population number. They roam huge areas and attempting to track them on a regular basis is virtually impossible.

    KP
    Hudson, WI
    Posts: 1365
    #1869006

    Some really good insights and some great information.

    Thanks Tom Sawvell!

    hop307
    Northern Todd County
    Posts: 609
    #1869007

    This is fairly common at our property between Browerville and Cushing. Sorry for fuzzy pics.

    Your property cant be too far from me, I am between Browereville and Staples. I have not heard any wolves but have had some pretty large dog tracks on the gravel road, bigger than my 100lb labs.

    hop307
    Northern Todd County
    Posts: 609
    #1869008

    double post

    mplspug
    Palmetto, Florida
    Posts: 25026
    #1869014

    Tom, I am talking about anecdotal reports of multiple packs in an area, observations people here are giving.

    Wolves have territories, so there shouldn’t be a lot of overlap with packs. There are also lone wolves kicked out of packs.

    I’m not trying to be argumentative as much as I am curious.

    lindyrig79
    Forest Lake / Lake Mille Lacs
    Posts: 5775
    #1869018

    Have to disagree somewhat about the hunting dog comments.

    Yes, if you let your dog roam free, you are at fault. But while hunting in “well known wolf territory” would be like saying if a guy went grouse hunting anywhere in the northern half of MN he should know better.

    This tells me there are too many wolves. And better believe I would have no problem shooting one if they were attacking my dog.

    MNBOWHUNTIN
    Posts: 158
    #1869020

    The DNR continues to be a laughing stock. According to their map, only 1 wolf resides where we rifle hunt south of Solway, MN. I have hundreds of TC pics of wolves, and multiple sightings of them while hunting. Crazy how insufficient the DNR is.

    Bottom line is: With as much human influence as there is now, there is no such thing as balance between deer/wolves. The DNR manages the prey (deer), so they need to manage the predators(wolves) as well.

    mplspug
    Palmetto, Florida
    Posts: 25026
    #1869023

    The DNR should have a way to contact them or you should send them in with date, time and location. I’d think the DNR or whoever is studying the population would welcome observations from the public?

    MNBOWHUNTIN
    Posts: 158
    #1869032

    Waste of time IMO.
    What would they do? Give me a pat on the head and say thanks for the pictures? How does that go over for folks reporting mountain lion sighting? They basically get told they are liars.

    Somebody mentioned the liberals. I think that is a big part of the problem.
    So you want to work for the DNR? Look at all the colleges that provide an Ecology or Environmental degree, all of them are liberal colleges. Taught by liberal professors. I went through 4 years of it at Bemidji State. The science and boots on the ground work is often placed second behind the liberal politics of entities like DNR or USFWS. You’d think a person in a scientific field has an open mind about things, not the reality in most cases.

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    Tom Sawvell
    Inactive
    Posts: 9559
    #1869038

    Tom, I am talking about anecdotal reports of multiple packs in an area, observations people here are giving.

    Wolves have territories, so there shouldn’t be a lot of overlap with packs. There are also lone wolves kicked out of packs.

    I’m not trying to be argumentative as much as I am curious.

    I know you’re not arguing Pug.

    Most definitely wolves have territories. Howling lets neighboring packs know where each is at and is a social type of thing. Territories are well marked with pi$$ and scratch patches in the dirt much like domestic male dogs make. These scent borders are seldom crossed and well respected. Those solo male dogs are perhaps the most maligned of the wolves because they don’t belong to any specific pack and are not welcomed by any pack as an add on.

    The comment on human influence is a good one because wolves are losing some of that inbred fear of man, so the animal that the dnr is attempting to understand, the wolf, is a whole new breed of cat and not a whole lot has been observed inside that realm of man/wolf-of-the-new-order.

    What is known is that wolves have two primary dishes on their menu: deer and moose. To some extent carrion is on there too. Somewhere along the line the dnr is going to have to start realizing that balancing deer/moose with wolves is going to be a losing proposition unless they start bringing wolf numbers into reasonable and realistic numbers. We do not need 2000 wolves in Minnesota. 500 is plenty. In my opinion if people want to see wolves they can go to Yellowstone.

    As far as observations and studies go what’s needed is a very specific wolf numbers study to done by a 100% unbiased group using several forms of wolf counting. Winter is the best time to look for them and actually see them and then a plan to bring any numbers over 500 under control by live trapping and relocating [fly them to the artic circle and release them] or, better yet, thru controlled hunting where license fees let the department make some bucks off them.

    The first step in realistic wolf management is to get some laws passed at the federal level that hands the management of the dogs back to individual states, laws which cannot be challenged again and then allow the state’s dnr specialists work out a plan to balance lobo with bambi and Bullwinkle. Notice I said to balance the wolves with the deer and moose, not the other way around. Too much protective bs has been applied to the wolf and he certainly has shown he does not need that much help.

    mplspug
    Palmetto, Florida
    Posts: 25026
    #1869046

    Waste of time IMO.
    What would they do? Give me a pat on the head and say thanks for the pictures? How does that go over for folks reporting mountain lion sighting? They basically get told they are liars.

    Or not.

    I just thought if people had sighting that were verifiable and offered without attitude, they might be able use it in their research. If they said no thanks and sent you one your way, then you have a legit beef if they are under reporting an area you use.

    xplorer
    Cloquet, MN
    Posts: 680
    #1869047

    Here’s a cool visual and article, about tracking done up in and near Voyageurs Nat’l park regarding pack dynamics.

    http://timberjay.com/stories/a-picture-tells-the-tale,14665

    Did they get your area right?

    Its hard for me to tell cause even when I zoom in as much as possible, there are still too many triangles and spots on top of one another to tell them apart, just outside Cloquet/Carlton whistling
    DNR here said that the pack just WSW of town is one of the largest in MN, has gotten to 20+ animals after pups are born.

    basseyes
    Posts: 2504
    #1869054

    Got banned from another fishing forum by an over zealous moderator after posting a bunch of wolf pics and videos, after he wasn’t convinced mn had a lot of wolves and thought most hunters were embellishing their claims of wolf numbers. Great thing about trail cameras now is date/time stamps and pic/video clarity for ID’ing different animals. People can lie, over exaggerate and inflate numbers. But when tcam pics and videos pile up lots of different animals in lots of different area’s, hard to dispute that after a while. The trust factor with the dnr is how they tell half truths and tend to seemingly try to mislead the general public for perceptions sake. We don’t have mountain lions was their stance to the general public, but what they really meant was we don’t have a known breeding population, when in all actuality we do have mountain lions, just not confirmed breeding pairs. We all aren’t idiots and know there is a text book different between a breeding population and a stray one here or there, but they start loosing their footing and credibility with stances they take without full frontal disclosures on their language and verbiage. Wolf numbers are skewed imo and prepup on the sole purpose of trying to keep that number as low as possible to keep the general public at bay, or hopefully a touch ignorant on actually wolf numbers. I get that, but…. the dnr will highly inflate deer numbers to sell licenses. So there becomes a disconnect, inflate one critters population numbers to sell licenses, deflate wolves to ease fears. For me personally, I start to develop trust issues with scientific people or organizations that manipulate facts for agendas.

    There are lots and lots of great people in the dnr who do tremendous work for all our resources. Sometimes the facts just seem to get muddled.

    tangler
    Inactive
    Posts: 812
    #1869060

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>MNBOWHUNTIN wrote:</div>
    Waste of time IMO.
    What would they do? Give me a pat on the head and say thanks for the pictures? How does that go over for folks reporting mountain lion sighting? They basically get told they are liars.

    Or not.

    I just thought if people had sighting that were verifiable and offered without attitude, they might be able use it in their research. If they said no thanks and sent you one your way, then you have a legit beef if they are under reporting an area you use.

    I think he’d rather just complain about the DNR on the internet. Let’s not complicate his feelings now, he seems pretty attached to his opinion of this agency.

    Red Eye
    Posts: 943
    #1869071

    Just don’t forget the MN DNR has no control over the wolf right now. They are federally protected because of one judge that was tired of listening to the hippies in her courtroom.

    Ranchers can’t even protect their cattle in Minnesota. The one good thing is they don’t all have gps chips. There have been plenty that take a nice float down the river or a beautiful train ride across the country.

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