Wolf de-listing imminent

@slowpoke

I am extremely tired of the narrative that city people don’t understand what it’s like in rural areas. Most of us lived or have plenty of experience “in the country” but continue to get labeled in a certain way. I believe “Citiot” is the term thrown around here every once in awhile.

I don’t refer to rural folks in any sort of demeaning fashion so if you want to have a civil argument I’d suggest you change how you approach these discussions.

@Tom Sawvell

I am fairly certain the plight of the moose has more to do with disease than wolves. I thought the herds up north were dwindling for that reason and not wolves. Maybe that’s changed. Or, maybe the herd got too large and nature found equilibrium?

Also, from 2018 and 2019 the moose population has stayed steady or grown. The big reduction was in the early 2000’s.

I’m gonna be done with this thread now….I need to go shoot a bald eagle because one just grabbed my tiny dog from my man purse. You guys just wouldn’t understand what we go through here in the city.

Matt – absolutely agree with you about the “city people” crap.

My take on the moose decline is that it results from multiple causes. Disease is certainly a component, brain worms carried by deer have cut down a lot of moose. Climate change and the resultant increase in ticks is also evident. We see ticks in St. Louis County in numbers I could not have imagined 30 years ago. The change in habitat over time due to large areas of poplar woods resulting from logging over 150 years degrade the habitat required for moose to thrive.

I think wolves are a more localized phenomenon. We’ve had wolves near our hunting area since I started going in the 1970s, moose coexisted with them for most of that time. We typically sighted (eyeball and trail camera) as many moose as wolves until 10 years ago. At that time we had a second pack move in to the area. Moose sightings dwindled and wolf sightings increased significantly. Also, we no longer see fox or coyotes in the area. They are all dead, wolves do not appreciate competition.

I don’t advocate eliminating wolves, do think they have exceeded carrying capacity in some areas. Limited hunts, depredation control make sense to me.

All very valid reasons for having Wolves.

Then there are those who will take matters into their own hands. How many have you ever heard THE 3 S,s Shoot Shovel Shut Up.

Dutchboy wrote:

All very valid reasons for having Wolves.

How about this…because the population was nearly exterminated in the 1970’s. Reintroduction to keep the food chain in balance and ensure they weren’t completely wiped was determined to be the best course of action by federal wildlife managers. Complete removal of an apex predator is known to have catastrophic consequences for other non-predatory animals.

Now, here is what I think the best argument for a hunt is. The ideal wolf population, as determined by the recovery plan through the ESA, in Minnesota is 1250 to 1400. It’s now estimated close to 2400 are in Minnesota. Over time, that could be problematic for other animal populations and also wolf populations.

But what would I know, being from the city and all.

When competition is too great they will move south, hell they already are, more and easier meals down here.

30% of NE MN moose mortality in MN is by wolf.
https://files.dnr.state.mn.us/wildlife/research/studies/moose/moose_findings.pdf

And Matt, you are into torturing fish, so I feel like you’re being a little hypocritical. 🤣

P.s. Although I grew up rural and know what a citiot is, I’ve also lived in the concrete jungle long enough to resemble one…🤷‍♂️

Matt Moen wrote:

I need to go shoot a bald eagle because one just grabbed my tiny dog from my man purse. You guys just wouldn’t understand what we go through here in the city.

Me being in the “city” too the best out come if wolves make it down here would be the local cougars might get pushed out of downtown. Sneaky petes is packed full already. could displace some of them easily.

Me being in the “city” too the best out come if wolves make it down here would be the local cougars might get pushed out of downtown. Sneaky petes is packed full already. could displace some of them easily.

With those thick designer jeans and crop haircuts asking for the wolves manager it certainly wouldn’t be without a good fight

I didn’t read every post. Has the term citiots come up yet?

I don’t have an answer because I think wolf management could be quite difficult since they are pack animals with huge territories. You aren’t going to stop cattle or pets from being killed. Unless you are able to kill off an entire pack, I assume any wolves taken will have a temporary effect. Another pack will move in or the pack will eventually gain the numbers back. The argument could maybe be made where it keeps them from expanding their range. But I think packs have a natural limit to the numbers they will support. I do think that if you manage prey, you sometimes need to manage predators, however because wolves are a pack animal, that is not as simple as just opening a hunt on them.

Whether or not you agree they should be hunted, trapped, or managed in some way I think we can all agree that they should be removed from the Endangered Species List now, right? The Obama Administration removed them from the list and now the Trump Administration is trying to as well. Just because they haven’t re-established an area they used to be present in when the settlers came to this country doesn’t mean they are eventually going to. There is only a very specific habitat they can occupy and everything the biologists and science says indicates is that they’ve already done that. They aren’t going to re-establish in downtown Minneapolis, Chicago, or other major metropolitan areas. And they aren’t going to re-establish in the flat plains country either because there’s no cover left.

I say leave the judges and politicians out of it and let the scientists and biologists make the decisions that they were trained to do. That means Walz needs to stay out of it.

Dutchboy wrote:

Did somebody post the reason for having Wolves? If so I missed it.

Because they eat the deer sick from the coronavirus. At least that’s what I read on Facebook.

Feathers wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>suzuki wrote:</div>
It doesn’t seem that large of an apex predator should be tolerated in populated areas. I don’t think there’s room anywhere in Wi and very little of Mn. Even more so with cougars. Bounty on both. Wipe them out.

My as well get rid of the black bears while you’re at.

Wipe out all the sharks, sting ray and jellyfish along the coasts.

Kill all the polar bears and grizzlies in the US.

I’m all for a wolf season but this line of thinking is over board. Maybe you were joking?

FWIW I live and hunt in wolf country. I can hear them howling close to my house often. Plenty of deer around here too.

Im not joking at all. Why do we need them in this region?? They have been gone for a long time with no adverse effect. Man has taken their place around here.
To put up with their problems just to make “some” people happy is ridiculous.
Tell me why we need them or even why they are a good thing around here.

Dutchboy wrote:

God also said, thou shalt not kill.

Hows that working out?

Better start reading your bible to understand that commandment

suzuki wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Feathers wrote:</div>

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>suzuki wrote:</div>
It doesn’t seem that large of an apex predator should be tolerated in populated areas. I don’t think there’s room anywhere in Wi and very little of Mn. Even more so with cougars. Bounty on both. Wipe them out.

My as well get rid of the black bears while you’re at.

Wipe out all the sharks, sting ray and jellyfish along the coasts.

Kill all the polar bears and grizzlies in the US.

I’m all for a wolf season but this line of thinking is over board. Maybe you were joking?

FWIW I live and hunt in wolf country. I can hear them howling close to my house often. Plenty of deer around here too.

Im not joking at all. Why do we need them in this region?? They have been gone for a long time with no adverse effect. Man has taken their place around here.
To put up with their problems just to make “some” people happy is ridiculous.
Tell me why we need them or even why they are a good thing around here.

How about this….you make a sound and logical argument for not needing them? They are here and are going to stay whether there is a hunt or not. The reasons to completely remove a wolf, or any animal, that is native to an area is beyond me. Maybe you know better but the only point you have made is “we were fine without ‘em.”

We were probably ok when bald eagles were almost wiped out but that didn’t make it ok they were gone…..

mplspug wrote:

I don’t have an answer because I think wolf management could be quite difficult since they are pack animals with huge territories.

Here’s an interesting graphic of GPS radio collared wolves movements within their pack territories. Notice how disciplined they are in staying within their own pack territory.

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That’s really interesting Andy. Huge territories, no doubt about it. Definitely a “moving” target.

We’ve had wolves in our family property area since sometime in the 1980s. I never recall much of a presence until I started putting out trail cameras and spending more time up there in the winter. They seem to come and go. I’m not sure how many packs are in the greater area. I do still see other predators on the trail cameras: fox, coyotes, bears, wolves and an occasional bobcat. Smaller animals like fishers, skunks, racoons and an occasional badger as well. There doesn’t, however, seem to be an overabundance of any one predator. The fox/coyote/wolves seem to be equally consistent as there is both wooded and more open areas. I even have trail cam photos of all three from the same camera.

Deer populations seem to ebb and flow. I have to bet fawn mortality if definite with the variety of larger predators in the area. We’ve found adult deer kills as well not to mention winter severity is always a wild card. So far the deer are still there and I’ve just come to the conclusion I’m not going to compete with the Saturday morning tv shows in my little slice of zone 1. I’d like to think zone 1 may have a built in check to help slow the spread of CWD. If I comes to wolves or CWD I’ll pick the wolves.

I surely see a place for management. I’d like to think the number of different predators is a good sign and some kind of balance is likely good for the area.

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Ofcourse we all know that WS has to trap and kill in MN on average of 225 problem wolves a year.

Matt Moen wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Dutchboy wrote:</div>
All very valid reasons for having Wolves.

How about this…because the population was nearly exterminated in the 1970’s. Reintroduction to keep the food chain in balance and ensure they weren’t completely wiped was determined to be the best course of action by federal wildlife managers. Complete removal of an apex predator is known to have catastrophic consequences for other non-predatory animals.

Now, here is what I think the best argument for a hunt is. The ideal wolf population, as determined by the recovery plan through the ESA, in Minnesota is 1250 to 1400. It’s now estimated close to 2400 are in Minnesota. Over time, that could be problematic for other animal populations and also wolf populations.

But what would I know, being from the city and all.

There is your argument right there for wolf control.

Humans have had too big of impact in natrual areas to just let nature runs its course, so that is out the window. Hell the environmentalists tried it for years up on Isle Royale, and then they just HAD to go a Fack with it, so that is no longer a natural area with natural ebbs and flows.

The argument that ranchers should’ve known what they are got into is complete BS too. How many NEW ranches and cattle farms are there? Most if not all the farms were established many years ago before the ESA and Feds decided to bring wolves back into the area. So technically, the ranches and cows were there before the wolves.

How about this, the folks in the cities can borrow some wolves from up north. Like 40-50 of them, from competing packs. Transplant them into the parks and along the rivers downtown. We can all take bets on how long before they are asking to return the borrowed wolves.

My buddy and I both drew tags a few years back when they had that season. We were all setup to hunt, had pictures of wolves on our baits. Morning we were supposed to leave we checked the quota and it said it was full. Day later the DNR comes out and says it was a computer “glitch”. Haha BS. We never were able to get out and hunt.

Walleyestudent Andy Cox wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>mplspug wrote:</div>
I don’t have an answer because I think wolf management could be quite difficult since they are pack animals with huge territories.

Here’s an interesting graphic of GPS radio collared wolves movements within their pack territories. Notice how disciplined they are in staying within their own pack territory.

Looks like my GPS tracks on the boat after a long weekend on my favorite lake

MNBOWHUNTIN wrote:

My buddy and I both drew tags a few years back when they had that season. We were all setup to hunt, had pictures of wolves on our baits. Morning we were supposed to leave we checked the quota and it said it was full. Day later the DNR comes out and says it was a computer “glitch”. Haha BS. We never were able to get out and hunt.

That sucks. The hunter success rate when we had an open season was like 5% so its not like hunting anything else.

Today the US Fish & Wildlife/Trump Administration removed the gray wolf from the Endangered Species Act.

DT

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Lock n Load!

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This is the end of 3S Management

Shoot.

Shovel.

Shut up.

I wonder if they even found the skinny, runty wolf the son of a cousin of my wife shot thinking it was a coyote in eastern Ottertail Co. When they walked up to it it had a tracking collar soooooo onto a slow moving west bound freight it got thrown in the Staples BNSF yard.

The people in favor of criminalizing the taking of wolves need to personally fund any damage Wolves might do out of their own paychecks.

“It is so easy to be wrong — and to persist in being wrong — when the costs of being wrong are paid by others.” – Thomas Sowell

Finally!

Everyone just keep in mind, the decision doesn’t go into effect until January.

I’m curious to see what MN’s wolf plan will be and if the DNR/legislature intends to revise it.

Everybody should also keep in mind, when the wolf becomes state-managed, it will be a game species, and killing one out of season / without a license, etc means big fine and possible confiscation of equipment used in the process including guns, etc.

IMO, the better route toward population control will be establishing a trapping season.

Grouse

TheFamousGrouse wrote:

IMO, the better route toward population control will be establishing a trapping season.

Not only the better route, but the proven more efficient route. When we did have a limited lottery quota based season for a couple years, the trapping success rate was more than double the hunting success rate.