Wisconsin – Spring Hearing Questions – Ban on Live scope and 360 Imaging

  • grubson
    Harris, Somewhere in VNP
    Posts: 1612
    #2258671

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>grubson wrote:</div>
    I’m not sure if I can get on board with a total ban. I’ll have to ponder that a bit more.
    One thing I know for sure. You can’t compare FFS to side imaging, mapping ,etc. Anyone who does loses all credibility with me. Apples to oranges.
    FFS is far more than just a sonar. If it’s not an easy street to catching fish you are bad at catching fish.
    It absolutely is an exceptional advantage over more traditional sonars.
    All but one time I’ve been involved in using one with friends this winter have been easy limits for everyone. It takes so much of the work out of finding fish is almost boring. Fishing becomes catching when FFS is used to it’s potential.

    Tell that to the questionnaire people. I can do the same thing with mega 360 that I can do with regular side imaging. Just a bit more work.

    Through the ice too?
    360 and side imaging tell you what was there. FFS tells you what’s there now, how many, how big, and what direction they’re going. Apples to oranges.
    For the record I don’t think 360 should be looped in with FFS

    ganderpike
    Alexandria
    Posts: 1095
    #2258674

    And who will enforce this virtuous FFS ban?

    For all the littering, overlimits, lack of NAV lights and other infractions I see on the regular, why would any forward thinking person think a tech limit is where we should start?

    The Dude
    Posts: 4
    #2258675

    Forward Facing Sonar is a cheat code… for finding fish. You still have to get the fish the bite however which is another story. Should it be banned? Probably not. The technology is only going to get better. You give the DNR an inch they’ll take a mile. Why not lower bag limits of fish drastically. They need to also focus more on predator fish aswell. Too many trophy pike lakes in Wisconsin now. Having a lake full of predator fish does a number on fish totals too. A lot of options outside of banning technology in my opinion.

    fishthumper
    Sartell, MN.
    Posts: 11917
    #2258677

    If it is not a big issue for you then why are you in favor of banning it?

    Is it simply you don’t use it so others should not?

    I have stated my reasons several times. It has nothing to do with if I don’t have one, Others should not. I do know if my whole goal every time I go fishing was to catch and keep limits of fish, you can bet I’d own one. It may surprise you but there are a fair # of fishermen who that’s their goal every outing.

    LabDaddy1
    Posts: 2440
    #2258678

    I’m not sure if I can get on board with a total ban. I’ll have to ponder that a bit more.
    One thing I know for sure. You can’t compare FFS to side imaging, mapping ,etc. Anyone who does loses all credibility with me. Apples to oranges.
    FFS is far more than just a sonar. If it’s not an easy street to catching fish you are bad at catching fish.
    It absolutely is an exceptional advantage over more traditional sonars.
    All but one time I’ve been involved in using one with friends this winter have been easy limits for everyone. It takes so much of the work out of finding fish is almost boring. Fishing becomes catching when FFS is used to it’s potential.

    X2

    fishthumper
    Sartell, MN.
    Posts: 11917
    #2258679

    Too many trophy pike lakes in Wisconsin now. Having a lake full of predator fish does a number on fish totals too. A lot of options outside of banning technology in my opinion.

    I will agree with you that to many large Predatory fish do and will also have an effect on other fish populations. As far as Wisconsin having to many trophy pike lakes, do tell. All I hear from both Minnesota and Wisconsin fishermen are where have all the large pike gone. Nothing in lakes these days but small hammer handles. I can probably count on 1 hand the # of what I’d call trophy pike being caught on Wisc. And Minnesota lakes each year. As least those I see pictures of.

    Joe Jarl
    SW Wright County
    Posts: 1926
    #2258681

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Joe Jarl wrote:</div>
    But it needs to be based on science like has been mentioned.

    So do you not agree that the science that goes into creating FFS, leads to it being easier to locate and thus catch more fish, Thus leading to more fish harvested, thus leading to a ever ending need to keep lowing daily limits? It all seems rather scientific to me.

    I get your concern. But, at this point we can only speculate that it’s resulting in higher harvest (keep) rates. Like mentioned above, I would much rather see current laws enforced before creating more. My opinion is that people already keeping more (regardless if they use technology or not) than they should is a much bigger problem that needs to be corrected.

    The Dude
    Posts: 4
    #2258682

    It also depends on what you consider a trophy pike. In alot of states outside of Minnesota and Wisconsin pike are considered invasive. You see quite a few lakes in Wisconsin with 32” limits on Northern Pike. In my opinion they should be treated like any other game fish. Limit of 3 with either a slot or no limit at all. Sure you might not see 50s but the lakes are trending that way with 32” size limits.

    mnfisherman18
    Posts: 378
    #2258685

    Yes, I would support a ban, but its a tough call for me. I brought it up in another thread, but the impacts on muskie fishing are not as often talked about here, but are fairly significant IMO.

    I don’t think it will ever happen, but I could foresee a world where its banned on certain lakes.

    Stanley
    Posts: 1064
    #2258687

    I vote no on a total ban. I don’t have ffs and I’m still undecided how I feel about it or if I will get it at some point. I would say yes to a total ban at the semi pro/ pro level. If you’re getting paid to fish it should be because you’re that good at fishing not just better at watching a screen or have more money than the next guy to buy you all the advantages. I think it would make a more even playing field where skill and experience wins. Also like mentioned would be more interesting to watch and maybe the average guy could learn something by watching.

    bigstorm
    Southern WI
    Posts: 1454
    #2258695

    Just wondering if they is why WI just introduced the lower daily bag of walleyes and saugers to 3 from 5 on most inland lakes?

    I dont have FFS and have never used it – I can see where and how it is an advantage, but you still have to get the fish to bite. Lowering the daily bag to a point where people may think the cost of FFS is not worth it if they are just looking to catch and keep fish is an option

    Beast
    Posts: 1123
    #2258700

    let’s ban something worth it, how about all the weed killers that’s being dumped into the lake, or wake boats that tear up the vegetation down to the 20′ depth.

    gimruis
    Plymouth, MN
    Posts: 17348
    #2258701

    let’s ban something worth it, how about all the weed killers that’s being dumped into the lake, or wake boats that tear up the vegetation down to the 20′ depth.

    There will be more restrictions on wake boats coming. The erosion alone on some shorelines is catastrophic.

    But that’s a completely different topic than this one.

    icefanatic11
    Nelsonville, WI
    Posts: 576
    #2258702

    I think this question has so much nuance to it. As a FFS owner, I personally love learning more each time, perhaps more importantly being able to study fish behavior, I’m a nerd in that regard I guess. I also am very cognizant of the fact that if used to the limit and improved, which it likely will be, severe consequences to fisheries will be coming. And speaking primarily as a crappie fisherman, the species I love dearly will be significantly impacted due to their basic nature. I for the record do keep fish to eat but am very conscious of not abusing bites, and lakes when I do decide to keep with selective and smart harvesting.

    I’ll be the radical and advocate for the ban and reduced bag limits, I’d be content, not necessarily happy, but content with both. And yes, I would give up my FFS for an overall improvement in the quality of WI fisheries. Losing the money would suck but if it would mean a return to the “normal” but also romanticized stories of how fishing was in our state 30 to 50 years ago, I’ll happily sacrifice my investment in the technology. That is a privileged take, and I acknowledge that, but I’d do it. I do not expect that others would do the same. I’m of the mindset that we live in a nation that preaches way to much, me, me, me, and not nearly enough we. If cooperation is what’s needed to work together in limiting the negative impacts of FFS and also reducing limits, sign me up. I’m sure that take will be an unpopular one, but I’m ok with that.

    But as others have mentioned where is the line? Then do we ban houses, gps, lake maps, lake-link, ido, information sharing? Because I don’t need FFS, if a friend dials me up a text that says, “hey they are biting on lake X we always fish out by that weed edge in front of that one yellow boat house.”

    As far as the regs go, I’m in favor of managing lakes in a variety of ways, have certain lakes be catch an release only maybe for a few years on a few targeted species. I know property owners wouldn’t love that but if it improves fish quality and health it may be worth it. Drop down significantly other lakes and if they lakes get too jammed with fish gradually bump the limits up.

    One final thought, how does reducing FFS and technology impact the recruitment of future anglers? I know of some younger kids, as I am a teacher, who have become more interested in fishing after being shown how a livescope works. I think the basic video game nature is appealing to some who otherwise are not the outdoorsy types. As someone who has had so much joy over the years in fishing, I’d also hate for new limits on tech. to discourage younger people who might miss out on the true joy and passion that I associate with fishing.

    Granted, that may be a small number of people, but I’d bet many of you would say that fishing has truly changed your life for the better. And maybe worse too on those rough days, but even then on those days that make ya want to quit, fishing teaches so many lessons and values. I think of the days of freezing cold on the ice for a few bites teaching me resilience, and patience that I probably would not have acquired doing other things kids tend to do in the world today. I know I care so much I’m willing to sacrifice on some of these things even if my experience becomes a bit less successful and more inconvenient for the sake of fisheries, but likely I’m in the minority.

    Just my three cents.

    Ripjiggen
    Posts: 11586
    #2258703

    Let’s ban fishing. Then there will be plenty of fish and open limits.

    buckybadger
    Upper Midwest
    Posts: 8163
    #2258704

    Ban it, or don’t ban it. It really doesn’t matter. The first generation or 2 of FFS is nothing compared to where the sport is headed with regards to technology and finding fish. Hell, 2 nights ago my wife and I ate at a small town restaurant in a SE MN town of 2500, and our food was brought to the table by a robot that also busses the table afterwards – I’m not joking.

    People are going to have to take a long hard look in the mirror as technology continues to evolve. I don’t go “fishing” because it’s easy. If I caught crazy numbers and trophy fish every single outing, the hobby would lose its purpose for me. It may not ever get to that point in my lifetime, but technology isn’t going to stop making fishing easier. There’s likely going to be a day where fishing is so far removed from what it was in my youth or even today, that it’s no longer a hobby of mine. I’ll cross that bridge when the day gets here regardless of a government law on technology.

    If it’s ethical to have no technological limits or regulations on technology associated with fishing, why shouldn’t hunting be the same? I can’t imagine it’d be that far fetched to track and locate groups of deer or large game via remote drone in the year 2024. Let the drones fly!

    Ripjiggen
    Posts: 11586
    #2258705

    Through the ice too?
    360 and side imaging tell you what was there. FFS tells you what’s there now, how many, how big, and what direction they’re going. Apples to oranges.
    For the record I don’t think 360 should be looped in with FFS

    Nope but I also can’t sit with lines in the water for 48 hours straight in open water either. Fairly easy to come up with tech like 360 which is old tech and be able to do the same thing.

    FinnyDinDin
    Posts: 807
    #2258706

    FFS, people want to ban FFS? lol

    I find it interesting this is where some draw the line. I remember the days when flashers were supposedly going to decimate the fish populations. And gps with lake maps too.

    I know a lot of people who own livescopes including me and I don’t know any of them who are game hogs. Most of them are catch and release fisherman a majority of the time and keep fish occasionally. They don’t keep any more than they used to when they were using flashers. I’d be willing to bet the vast majority that are willing to spend the money on FFS aren’t doing it to fill their freezer. They are doing it to have more fun.

    I was in favor of reducing limits, specifically panfish, before livescope and still am. If your concern is protecting fish populations lower limits are a better answer than banning technology.

    I have talked to quite a few people who are opposed to FFS and I have always got the sense that they are opposed because they either can’t afford it or don’t want to spend the money for it. If they can’t have it, they don’t want others to. Same as it ever was. A poor trait in human nature.

    27eyeguy
    Posts: 308
    #2258710

    I have mixed feelings on FFS. Maybe they could have an electronics stamp added to a fishing license.

    gimruis
    Plymouth, MN
    Posts: 17348
    #2258714

    I was in favor of reducing limits, specifically panfish, before livescope and still am. If your concern is protecting fish populations lower limits are a better answer than banning technology.

    I have talked to quite a few people who are opposed to FFS and I have always got the sense that they are opposed because they either can’t afford it or don’t want to spend the money for it. If they can’t have it, they don’t want others to. Same as it ever was. A poor trait in human nature.

    Kinda how I feel too. Banning equipment is a slippery slope. Reducing limits seem way more logical to me because it has and can be done again. Eventually the bag limit will be so strict that there will be no limit because it’s zero.

    I could put it on my boat next week if I wanted to. There’s a decent chance I will add it in the future but for now I am fine without it. For now.

    I feel like panfish and crappies in particular are the species that is taking the biggest hit here with this technology because the season is open year round and they are generally considered a fish sought after to keep.

    FinnyDinDin
    Posts: 807
    #2258715

    I have mixed feelings on FFS. Maybe they could have an electronics stamp added to a fishing license.

    Stamps and licenses are just another form of taxes. We pay enough friggin taxes. I am sure the government would just love to add more. Where does that end? Tax (stamp fee) on FFS, another lower tax on flashers and gps, another tax on live bait?

    If they want to lower limits for those who use FFS, fine. I’d rather see lower limits for all but if they really believe fish populations will get hurt from the technology (I have my doubts) then lessen the limit for those who use it. I don’t think most of the FFS users would care. I wouldn’t.

    FinnyDinDin
    Posts: 807
    #2258716

    If it’s ethical to have no technological limits or regulations on technology associated with fishing, why shouldn’t hunting be the same? I can’t imagine it’d be that far fetched to track and locate groups of deer or large game via remote drone in the year 2024. Let the drones fly!

    It is illegal to use drones to take big and small game animals in MN and I believe in a majority of the other states as well.

    Many states it is also illegal to use them to find downed game. I am not so sure I support that but I can see that being tough to enforce between the true use.

    Comparing fish and big game is apples to oranges IMO.

    Don Meier
    Butternut Wisconsin
    Posts: 1659
    #2258724

    LOL blaming FFS for everything it sounds like ? Sounds like a powertrip for some jealous? misinformed ? Biased ? Based on what ? A feeling that someone is over harvesting ? Without any evidence ? News flash game violators have been breaking laws ever since they were written ! Maybe we ought to ban the books by Bill Binkelman and Buck Perry while your at ? Cause you know it might be used to someone’s advantage ? Im old enough to remember when compound bows became available and the same jealous , scared people cried about it ! Its going to ruin bow hunting ! Fast forward now crossbows are popular and the the same scared people claiming crossbows will ruin bow hunting ! Reality is nothing got ruined except some fragile egos along the way !

    Mike W
    MN/Anoka/Ham lake
    Posts: 13294
    #2258728

    Don’t get this one bit. usually need to talk myself into even turning mine on. I catch far more fish with side imaging than livescope. Then again the only fish I’ve caught with live scope is one that hit my line while hitting the buttons.

    OG Net_Man
    Posts: 594
    #2258729

    No, I would not support a ban.

    And if it was banned you had better offer a buy back program if you want me to stop using it.

    Ripjiggen
    Posts: 11586
    #2258730

    Don’t get this one bit. usually need to talk myself into even turning mine on. I catch far more fish with side imaging than livescope. Then again the only fish I’ve caught with live scope is one that hit my line while hitting the buttons.

    That’s awesome. jester

    Gregg Gunter
    Posts: 1059
    #2258754

    The cat is already out of the bag and has been since the days of the green box. Any technology from the last 50 years has improved fishing success. From Mister Twister to massive “fishing” boats. Super line, tungsten, graphite rods. GPS, Lake Maps, phone apps. Instant messaging and fishing forums. Population growth and the popularity of fishing. B-Man said “limit the kill” and that is the bottom line. Keeping fish in the lake is simple, take fewer fish from the lake. Fisheries managers know the issues and have the ability to lower the limit. But so does the guy in the mirror.

    Cw
    Posts: 110
    #2258755

    I think FFS is to blame for the declining deer herd in mn.

    Rodwork
    Farmington, MN
    Posts: 3975
    #2258762

    I feel this should be a 2-part question.
    #1 have you used or own a live scope style electronic?
    #2 Are you willing to band FFS or willing to lower bag limits?

    It would be interesting to see how many who own them are in support of the band since they have $$$ invested. I don’t have one but have used one multiple times. I found from my poorly controlled scientific study, man can they help. With the use of FFS I was able to get on the fish quicker. Applying more pressure on them for a longer time. Eventually I would have found them. Say I have 3 hours to fish and without FFS it takes me 2 hours to find the fish vs with FFS it takes me 30 min to find the fish. FFS add lots of pressure to muskies. Every time I used FFS I got on the fish faster and caught more fish. FFS has also taught me many things about fishing and fish behavior. Choosing to keep fish for dinner that night is a different story.

    Ice Cap
    Posts: 2161
    #2258764

    It’s like gun bans and restrictions. They do nothing to solve a perceived problem. Enforce what is already on the books. Who’s going to enforce a ban on electronics? Sad but true most guys I know are already bending or breaking the rules on bag and possession limits. Limit five crappies? Fine, go out catch five in the morning go in and clean them have lunch and go back out in the afternoon and catch five more. More people than what you care to know are doing this. Chances of getting caught are near zero.

    Having banned electronics would be easier to enforce but there just is not enough DNR presence to efficiently enforce it. A friend of mine had his live scope out on the lake a couple weeks ago. I was watching it with him and he seen a fish twenty feet behind us. Popped a hole there dropped his line and caught it. I instinctively called him a cheater. Without even thinking about it it was a total honest reaction. So I can’t deny that’s how I feel about it. He had his limit in a couple hours while we sat in the skid house all afternoon with our FFS and didn’t even limit out. It is a definite advantage that cannot be denied. But even at that I don’t think I would check the box that would vote for a ban. Policing bag and possession limits is the starting point and make it hurt when you get caught.

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