Windows in house icing up….

  • Chuck Melcher
    SE Wisconsin, Racine County
    Posts: 1966
    #1492615

    May be a dumb question… but we have a well built home, roughly 25 years old. As we get this cold snap… we get a good amount of window icing, on the north side more than anywhere else. Bedrooms are the worse. These are the big swing outs….with wood frames.

    Is this just a sign the windows are bad? Are the new ones that much better now? I’m guessing I have a chunk (big one) of change to spend in the future, but sure would like to know good windows would fix this winter long pain in the rear. I got a quote on wood window replacements a few years back and almost choked.

    Dave Lozier
    Amherst, WI
    Posts: 961
    #1492628

    Same thing happens here with really cold days/nights. The windows are fairly new (10 years or so) and the attic is heavily insulated. We run a whole house humidifier in the winter months so that makes things worse with the windows icing up in the corners where the glass meets the frame.

    My idea for a solution to this problem is to get some inside storm windows made out of plexiglass that can be clamped into place to further seal the windows off. At some point I would love to go to triple pane windows.

    http://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profiles/blogs/should-i-be-using-triple-pane-windows-for-my-retrofit-project

    A single pane window has an R-value of about 1 and a U-factor of 1. That’s easy to remember.

    A double pane window has a R-value of about 3.3 and an U-factor of 0.30.

    A triple pane window has a R-value of about 8.3 and an U-factor of 0.12

    Our double pane windows aren’t much protection against these temps but way better than single pane. I’m hoping to be able to cover each window with the plexiglass inside storms for less than $100 each. How quickly that pays for it’s self I don’t know but I’ll feel better about it and hopefully wont see as much frosting up in the corners. (if any)

    castle-rock-clown
    Posts: 2596
    #1492630

    If they are thermopanes and cloudy they are shot. Also whenever cooking or showering turn on exhaust fan to reduce moisture. One last thing…if your a heavy breather, try to control through meditation, but leave out the cleansing breaths.

    gregory
    Red wing,mn
    Posts: 1648
    #1492634

    I have the same problem and I was told a air exchanger would help and eliminate this problem, more then likely it’s a moisture problem.

    onestout
    Hudson, WI
    Posts: 2698
    #1492638

    We had a house with windows that used to ice up a lot, the windows were bad and drafty. Replaced them with the best window out there and it was all but eliminated. On cold days like this they would still get a little ice but not much. The other thing that helped was to watch the humidity level in the house, ours didn’t auto adjust. So watch the humidity with an auto adjust humidifier or manually and good windows should take care of it. Good windows are so nice but expensive, good luck.

    Chuck Melcher
    SE Wisconsin, Racine County
    Posts: 1966
    #1492651

    Yea, they are double pane… It sucks how wet they get. I’ve actually refinished the wood once as it stains and gets bad. Time to do it again. And those wood cross square things are terrible to do.

    I hate the idea of all the expense of replacing them, but what materials have most found to be good? We have a lot of wood in the house… and all wood windows. Stone, brick, and cedar out. I see they have fiberglass, wood, and vinyl. I’m not looking to degrade the house. Have thought about the inside plexiglass thing, just hate doing it… but maybe that is a first step for now. These windows do not seal well for sure.

    mark-bruzek
    Two Harbors, MN
    Posts: 3921
    #1492684

    What temp do you keep your house? Over 70 really exaggerates ice and frost.

    How much humidity? High humidity causes more issues.

    Is the air moving? Using a fan to circulate air in the room can help to reduce or sometimes eliminate the problem.

    asch
    Eastern Iowa
    Posts: 149
    #1492704

    If they are Anderson windows they had a problem with the seal letting gas out in the summer but not letting air back in in the winter sucking the panes together in the winter. They will fog up in the middle when cold. The have a twenty year warranty and Andersen will replace them. You can drill a small hole thru the edge of the pane (not thru the glass) and it will help.

    Chuck Melcher
    SE Wisconsin, Racine County
    Posts: 1966
    #1492709

    Original windows, not sure what kind. Rooms are at like 65-68 (upstairs bedrooms). Humidifier is set pretty low, I think. What is norm? We leave the furnace fan run on medium all the time to keep air moving, and keep house a little more confy.

    flatfish
    Rochester, MN
    Posts: 2104
    #1492713

    I have the same problem and I was told a air exchanger would help and eliminate this problem, more then likely it’s a moisture problem.

    Check you humidity inside your home. Likely, if higher than 36% and with these sub-zero temps, you’ll get inside condensation which can and will freeze inside on your windows and sills….lower the humidity inside your home and that will solve a bunch(but maybe not all) of that problem…

    311hemi
    Dayton, MN
    Posts: 742
    #1492749

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>gregory wrote:</div>
    I have the same problem and I was told a air exchanger would help and eliminate this problem, more then likely it’s a moisture problem.

    Check you humidity inside your home. Likely, if higher than 36% and with these sub-zero temps, you’ll get inside condensation which can and will freeze inside on your windows and sills….lower the humidity inside your home and that will solve a bunch(but maybe not all) of that problem…

    I agree, first thing I would be looking at is humidity levels. I just built a new house with Marvin integrity windows and get condensation in the corners of the windows if I let the humidity get to high. I turn on the air exchanger and it takes care of the issue.

    TheFamousGrouse
    St. Paul, MN
    Posts: 12343
    #1492757

    Original windows, not sure what kind. Rooms are at like 65-68 (upstairs bedrooms). Humidifier is set pretty low, I think. What is norm? We leave the furnace fan run on medium all the time to keep air moving, and keep house a little more confy.

    What do you mean “set pretty low”? What is it set at?

    I very STRONGLY suspect that your issue is not bad windows, but simply having too much humidity in your house. Keep in mind, you need to vary the setting of your humidistat with the relative temprature. It’s not set/forget like a thermostat.

    I would get an accurate humidity gauge so that you know what your humidity really is and then work backward from there.

    Grouse

    carver
    West Metro
    Posts: 613
    #1492773

    So i have the same issues. House built in 98-99. Anderson double hung windows everywhere. Happens more on the then the picture window and sliding glass door.

    I was told that i cant get anything from them as I’m not the original owner.

    Anyway these windows are wood and the previous owners and ones before that did nothing to help these windows.

    Right now the humidity in the house is 34% and the temp is 68.

    Wanted to get new windows but got a new boat instead…..

    Randy Wieland
    Lebanon. WI
    Posts: 13929
    #1492811

    These frigid temps will bring out the worst in windows and other issues in a home. Been dealing with this for a lot of years as customers bring up complaints as stated above.

    Here is a few things to keep in mind

    RH (relative humidity) in a home is is generally kept at 25 to 30%. Non-heating times of the year will require a dehumidifier to reduce the RH. Heating periods will most often use a humidifier such as an Apriaire. When selecting these units, the home owner should verify a few things.
    1. The unit is sized according to the volume of their home.
    2. Most modern units will have “auto” setting to adjust to the RH to the temperature variance. A huge mistake is often made by the homeowner continually changing the settings in an attempt to get a more intimidate result. Not good!
    3. Verify the unit is functioning. Hard water deposits, clogged filters, or failing parts will result in the unit failing. Typically resulting in no moisture or way too much. Do an annual inspection.

    Windows – By far are the most common failure in many homes. Unlike an air-sealed/insulated wall, the R values of windows are much less. The R value is just the resistance factor to heat loss. Probably the most over looked aspect of windows is the air infiltration. ALL window frames will have some infiltration. The key is to have the least. Sounds like common sense, but nearly no one ever compares this rating. Low end window manufactures will make it more difficult to locate these numbers.

    Your windows are the weakest link and will generally be the coldest part of the exterior envelope. If your getting condensation on your windows, you need to look at a number of factors combined to identify the real issue.
    1. Failed frame seal – allows air to infiltrate from exterior to interior or reversed based on the pressure within a home. Some manufacture will sell replacement seals that can be easily and inexpensively reaplaced. Others will have a molded system and the frame seal is not able to be replaced without replacement of the window unit. You will often see condensation or frosting along the edge or in a corner near the frame at the piont of the air leak

    Failed gas seal of the window panes. Most commonly a visual trait is fogging or skewed vision through the glass. A commonly unknown situation is the implosion that can happen with these. In extreme cases, the vacuum in the winter time will increase so much that glass will shatter as if someone or something went through it. Most common on a gas leak is condensation developing anywhere on the window. Top, center, sides…. the resistance factor is gone and the cavity between the panes allows for both interior or exterior air to enter.

    HVAC supply air – This is a tricky one with new built homes that are well sealed and insulated, but has junk windows. A home with a good R-value will naturally have a furnace that doesn’t cycle as often. Supplies should be placed to the furthest points out in a room, and commonly beneath or near window openings. So as conditioned air travels out, it exchanges with the worst part of the walls (windows) and heats the glass – causing the “dew Point” to be reached at an exterior point rather than interior. Also critical with this is the air exchange. Because the RH can be higher in the more dense cooler air near a window, it needs to be exchanged with the other air of the room to maintain consistency. A solution for this is to set the furnace fan setting to manual or run and allow the fan to operate 24/7 du7ring extreme conditions. This maintains a steady air flow and more consistency in a home.

    As mentioned above, cooking, amount of people, pets, all contribute to how much moisture is in the air. During periods of high moisture exchange, run exhaust fans to remove air from the home. In cases when the exterior temps are below zero, the exterior RH is very low, often below 10%. By drawing this air in through your fresh air intake, you will draw the interior RH down. In extreme cases of bioling water for cooking, showers,…. open a window or door for a short period of time. Allowing the super low humidity air in will help reduce the moisture rapidly.

    In a case of older homes with poor placement of air supplies, run a ceiling fan or oscillating fan on low to improve air flow/exchange. Open blinds, curtains or other obstructions that prevent warm air from heating the first pane of glass.

    Bob Carlson
    Mille Lacs Lake (eastside), Mn.
    Posts: 2936
    #1492812

    I have a air exchange and with this cold weather I have 22 percent humility in our home….with zero ice or frost on the windows. Anytime its over 30 percent we see ice/frost in the corners.

    Dry air is good for the home…but sucks for humain beings!!

    dry skin…….

    Trent W
    Chatfield, MN
    Posts: 186
    #1492837

    Very good post Randy! I will add a few things. Most likely, your Andersen windows have a U-Value of around .29. The lower the U-value the better. This translates to an R-Value of a little over R3, which obviously makes your windows the weakspot. Even some of the best triple pane windows will only reach R6 or R7 insulation. The coldest part of any window is near the edges of the glass and at any air infiltration points. Unfortunately, double hung windows and sliding patio doors are the worst when it comes to air infiltration. Casement windows are by far, the best.

    Now consider the dew point in your home. Basically, the dew point is the temperature at which condensation forms. If your house is 68 and humidity is 34%, your dew point is just under 39 degrees. If you have ice on your windows, it is obvious that the temperature on that surface is below 32 degrees. Now look at the the humidity in Bob Carlson’s home…22% at 68 degrees would give a dew point of around 28 degrees. It would have to get that cold on the glass surface before he sees condensation or frost.

    Another thing to consider is the use of blinds. Blinds will hold cold air and humidity behind them. Now you have colder air and moist air that does not circulate being trapped against your windows. Keeping the blinds open as much as possible in the winter will help reduce condensation considerably.

    Short term solutions are to lower your dew point in your home to a level that stops the majority of the condensation by lowering the humidity, lowering the temperature or both. Keep your blinds open as much as possible. Longer term, replacing your windows would be a good idea. As a person who works in the window industry, I would highly recommend for northern climates a casement window, triple pane glass and a vinyl window frame with foam insulation.

    Chuck Melcher
    SE Wisconsin, Racine County
    Posts: 1966
    #1492903

    Thanks for all the info guys!

    My humidity setting on thermostat isn’t given in a percentage, but a setting the system is suppose to maintain. I’ll pick up a gauge and look into it more.

    suzuki
    Woodbury, Mn
    Posts: 19078
    #1493006

    I have yet to see a home where windows didnt occasionally frost up with intense cold. The other day most of our windows on the ground floor had frost near the bottom couple inches. Today, nothing.

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