Why talk down magnums for hunting medium size large game?

Between working today, I’ve been strolling through some reloading options for a friend’s new 300 wsm. On Google searches, I see son many posts knocking guys using 7mm mags, 270wsm, 300wsm, and so on for whitetail. I guess after looking at our results amongst my friends, I question why?

For obvious reasons, a well placed projectile will kill an animal easily. Lung shots are probably the most common and usually the animal expires within 100yrds. But the difference in seeing the shock wave damage in addition to the impact has been what I consider very desirable.

As a few examples, olivias buck this year was hit in the heart. Yet the lungs still looked like they were smashed with a hammer. Her elk was a double lung shot and the heart was all bruised up. My buck was a lung shot and the liver and heart was like mush.

Now to be more accurate, we don’t use fragmenting bullets. After getting away from fragments and using solid copper Barnes TSX, I’ve seen a huge difference in the internal devastation with much less loss on the meat. But it seems to me the increase and transfer of energy does a more ethical job in a quick kill. So why the stigma on mag loads? Why the high volume of posts to down size for less recoil? It’s just a curiosity factor as I am not looking to change

My knowledge is no doubt out-of-date, but it seems to me that to maintain standard safe chamber pressures the additional powder in a magnum load has to be slower burning. To see any advantage from this additional slower burning powder, you need a longer barrel (if the bullet is out past the muzzle then any powder still burning doesn’t do any good). The last time I looked at a ballistics chart the 7mm Mag was published using a 26 inch barrel instead of the standard 22 inch barrel commonly found on a hunting rifle. You’re going to lose some velocity for every inch you chop off. By the time you get back to a 22 inch barrel there likely isn’t a significant difference between a 7mm Mag and a 30-06….. Except the ammo costs more, there’s more recoil, and a bigger muzzle flash.

Or I could be all wet

I’m headed the other direction. I really enjoy shooting my black powder double 12ga. I recently found a source of .715 round balls. They weigh about 550 grains and 100 grains of FF should push them down range about 1000 fps. If I an work up a load that holds any accuracy at all, Whitetails out to 50 or 60 yards wouldn’t get far.

SR

Any caliber will kill an animal when that perfect broadside shot presents itself. But say your in the final minutes of a once in a lifetime elk hunt or that trophy whitetail buck gives you at best a quartering away shot at maybe a longer range? The bullets path will have to penetrate the stomach and its mass of solid soggy contents, pierce the diaphragm, take out a lung with enough retained energy and hopefully at least destroy the opposite front shoulder. Standard calibers like 270 win 308 win and 30-06 will most likely not do the job. A properly selected weight retaining expanding bullet pushed at higher velocities has proven effective. I hand load and select magnum powders that are faster in burn rate that give me the speed in my 24″ barrel. Recoil is noticeable when punching paper at the range, pulling the trigger on a live animal you hardly notice it. At the end of the day I want a weapon capable of killing an animal under less than perfect circumstances rather than wound or slow death that same animal. Your rifle is a tool, make sure its the right tool for the job.

It probably surfaces with the issue of recoil management, some folks have a hard time controlling what they are shooting. This normally is the result of someone who does not shoot much or has to have a rifle larger then yours. The conversation surfaces when hunting guides, property owners and the general public hear stories of folks using a rifle caliber that they cannot manage thus flinching or aiming very poorly.

There are many ways of controlling the amount of recoil and blast on the magnums or even some of the other calibers.

The energy off of my most common go to rifle for deer and other animals hits with 1867 lbs of energy at a 1000 yards. The recoil is mild and hearing protection is not required but is always recommended no matter what you shoot. I carry this rifle using a shoulder strap for an average of 4 to 6 miles everyday during deer season.

So as a magnum and the way I have it set up, its not that loud, or heavy and is extremely accurate when having to deal with the elements of wind. So being responsible on my distance I have the odds of dropping animals doing damage to the organs from the shock on a well placed bullet without damaging a lot of meat.

One rifle I would like to have some day that would be a great all around purpose magnum would be a 300 Norma Mag. maybe someday.

Of the three main rifles I use, the energy levels at a 1000 yards will range from 638 to 5654 lbs of energy.

I still think magnums get a bad rap because some folks cannot handle the gun or are scared of it from not being familiar with it thus having bad results, this is really no different then some shooting the standard calibers.

JH

Bring enough gun.

Jeff Heeg wrote:

The energy off of my most common go to rifle for deer and other animals hits with 1867 lbs of energy at a 1000 yards. The recoil is mild and hearing protection is not required but is always recommended no matter what you shoot. I carry this rifle using a shoulder strap for an average of 4 to 6 miles everyday during deer season.

Of the three main rifles I use, the energy levels at a 1000 yards will range from 638 to 5654 lbs of energy.
JH

What rifle are you deer hunting with that produces 1867 ft.lbs at 1000 yds?

With the .50 BMG tables showing 3231 ft.lbs at 1000 yards(out of a 29″ bbl), what rifle are you shooting to achieve 5654 lbs of energy?

T

Jeff Heeg wrote:

One rifle I would like to have some day that would be a great all around purpose magnum would be a 300 Norma Mag. maybe someday.

That .308 Norma is a nice caliber. I had an opportunity to run a couple rounds thru a custom rifle in that caliber loaded up for moose. It has some bump to it but not objectionable and the noise wasn’t near what I thought it might be with the slightly longer barrel of the gun. Covered the ears for the second shot though.

There’s a pretty wide spread of loads too if a guy reloads for the gun. Nice caliber but if you are looking at Gander for ammo you may find it hard to find. Its not a super common chambering.

I don’t want to derail the original question pertaining to Magnums and was using the capable energy in relation to recoil. Including the pros and cons of felt recoil and how it may influence the great majority as far as how it is excepted and or managed. Bullet placement with enough speed and energy behind it for the given purpose is the key.

Still one of my all time favorites for carrying around is my old trusted 35 Whelen.

Timmy
Here you are
338LM using a 300gr at 2748fps
375VM using a 414gr at 3350fps

JH

To answer Randy’s question, I think it comes back to old school. Bullets fragment, therefore more powder/power = more fragmentation and meat loss. Most guys still want the cheapest ammo they can find that will do “just as good” as the more expensive stuff. I’ve learned in very recent years that this isn’t the best way to look at things. My reasons are many and I’ll spare you all with that list but I have now witnessed first hand how newer technology bullets truly handle the task better. I still won’t state that magnum is necessary in closer range situations because it’s not. But with the new technology, we can now get away with “all-around” purposing a magnum caliber. Back in the day, it would turn your deer to hamburger and I think people are still hanging on to that. Change is always met with resistance.

I think it really comes down to the fact that the ideal choice in chamberings for a given species is not really about the cartridge at all. Asking “Why talk down magnums?”, isn’t, in my opinion, a fully-formed question.

Why talk down (or up) magnums for WHOM? That’s the fully-formed question, IMO.

As has been already mentioned, the issue of recoil-induced poor shooting is very real. As one of my favorite gun writers, Craig Boddington, very rightly observed, “Recoil sensitivity is like bad breath, it is very difficult to self-diagnose.”

Of course, nobody HERE is recoil sensitive…, but I’ve seen you guys at the gun club! Yes, I’m looking at you, with your scattered groups, good first shots followed by errant second and third shots, and your obviously tense grasp of the rifle.

An then enter the machismo factor. C’mon, who’s going to be the pansy-ass, girlie man that admits, “Ummm, I tried a magnum and it’s just too much for me?” Unfortunately, no matter how poorly people shoot, they tend to blame EVERYTHING except their own recoil sensitivity for the problem and they just keep on missing.

IMO, the cardinal rule is to start your consideration with the minimum gun suitable for the game, and then increase size only to the most gun you can shoot well.

This is very difficult for many to do, however! See also, above comment about the machismo factor. You have to have a lot of both self-awareness and self-confidence to be “that guy/gal” who shows up for an elk hunt with a plain, old, boring, “under-powered” non-magnum while all the other hunters are stroking their shiny new .300 Ultras and .338s, and there’s even that one guy who’s got a .375 H&H and he’s sneering at you and your wimpy rifle from across the campfire.

I talked to one very experienced safari huntress about her choice of rifle and even SHE was almost apologetic about using a .30-06! Why? Well, it’s just not a “safari caliber”, of course. The fact that she collected dozens of species over multiple safaris I would think proves the point that using chambering that you can shoot well is what produces results.

I think the other principle knock against the use of magnums for whitetail is, really, about how much deader do you really need that deer to be?

Magnum devotees will point to the massive damage that a magnum hit produces as evidence of the benefits of a magnum, but there’s a lack of comparative evidence here. Would a plain, old, boring, non-magnum have dropped that same deer just as dead?

Of course, we’ll never know for sure, but that won’t stop people on both sides from answering the question and creating “evidence” that backs up their view.

Grouse

I wonder if views would be different if the word “mag” was omitted….. often think the Magnum designation is a sales tool.

Kind of like my thoughts on the 220 “Swift” The Swift is a very ironic way of saying screaming like hell. most 5ogr bullets are about 39xx to over 4000fps. Heck of a fast bullet. I’ve seen a lot of deer shot with them over the years and yet I don’t see many posts about why you would need such a fast bullet.

Interesting to see everyone’s thought process on this.

Randy Wieland wrote:

I wonder if views would be different if the word “mag” was omitted….. often think the Magnum designation is a sales tool.

Kind of like my thoughts on the 220 “Swift” The Swift is a very ironic way of saying screaming like hell. most 5ogr bullets are about 39xx to over 4000fps. Heck of a fast bullet. I’ve seen a lot of deer shot with them over the years and yet I don’t see many posts about why you would need such a fast bullet.

Interesting to see everyone’s thought process on this.

My swift is not a deer gun in any way shape or form. Now if you want to Jihadi John a fox, just put the X on a spot just below the ear. That’s out to about 250 yards. I load a 50 grain hollow point/boat-tail bullet [sierra] to around 4250 fps. On a deer that would make a super sized popped blister and a wounded animal.

I flinch…and after shooting my 7mm Rem Mag out of a super light Tikka too much, or shooting full loads out of my 45/70 guild gun even a little I flinch even more. My cure is both bench shooting and offhand plinking with my 22 rifle. It takes about a hundred rounds, OK in just having extra fun, to get my form, breathing, and overall precision back and loose the flinch. I spend alot of hours at the range, but always leave only after finishing up with the 22. Especially before a hunt.

As far as bullet selection, I’m a big believer in retained weight bullets like the Nosler Accubond, I stay away from the fragmenting bullets like Bergers. Elmer Keith wrote about Remington’s introduction of a 6mm caliber that used a fragmenting bullet that in his opinion resulted in wounding on deer if bone was involved. He did not like them…then again he also thought 30/06 was underpowered for elk, let alone 270 win, no disrespect Mr O’Connor.

Years ago I purchased a Weatherby 257 mag ultra lite stainless with factory installed brake. In the last 5 years I have sold or given away (grandsons)all but my praire dog gun. It shoots so good two of my hunting buddies also purchased one. Super flat shooting for out west. I’m very confident out to 550 yards. Groups around 1″. Only drawback is price of ammunition.
Rested on a tri pod mule deer don’t have a chance.

Randy Wieland wrote:

I wonder if views would be different if the word “mag” was omitted….. often think the Magnum designation is a sales tool.

Essentially, the magnum designation is a marketing gimmick.

The original use of the term “magnum” as applied to firearms/cartridges was to differentiate cartridges (mainly of British origin) that had a larger case capacities from other cartridges that had the same bullet diameter, but shorter cases. It must have struck someone that the situation was similar to wine bottles that had the same basic shape, but obviously a magnum is a much larger bottle.

The problem was, the originals quickly faded away leaving the “magnums” without anything to differentiate themselves from. It’s basically been a marketing term ever since.

And a damn effective one at that! I mean, really, who wants a .300 Winchester (boring!) when you could have a .300 Winchester Magnum?

I’ve often said that if it were possible to rebrand the .30-06 as the .30 Ultra Magnum, sales would double overnight. If Remington had added “magnum” after the ill-fated 6 MM Remington we’d have never heard of the .243 Winchester.

Grouse

Just to throw this out there, not all folks who shoot magnums portray Grouse’s camp comment.

There are alot of us out there that shoot multiple variations of firearms that serve a purpose in one way or another and will not belittle another shooter because of what they are using.

Yes there are ego trippers out there who have to have the biggest and baddest but when you look at the percentages they are few compared to the rest.

Some good stuff has surfaced so far
Pro’s
Con’s
General public responce
Rifle set up
Proper choice of bullets nowdays
Shot placement
The shortfalls for some folks shooting magnums
And marketing.

Grouse, I’m not picking on you I appreciate reading what you write. Just that there are a bunch of good magnum gun shooters in the mix as well.

Had the damdist thing happen with a primmer the other day if you folks want to chat on that, I can fire up a new topic on that venture.

JH

“The original use of the term “magnum” as applied to firearms/cartridges was to differentiate cartridges (mainly of British origin) that had a larger case capacities from other cartridges that had the same bullet diameter, but shorter cases.”

Isn’t this what they used to call an “express” load?

The biggest load I’ve ever shot is 300 WSM with 180gr. bullets. It’s a Tikka T3 Lite refitted with a Boyds Laminate stock, very thin standard recoil pad. I shot it in summer of 2014 in a t-shirt. 2 rounds later, I hung it up. I’ll shoot this when I need a jacket! This year, I also added a soft cell pad and with a jacket, I got back to where I was okay and shot a box down the range, keeping my shots within a 2″ group. But I’m not ashamed by any means to admit that I don’t care for the recoil of that gun, even compared to my 270WSM. My normal, most commonly used caliber is .308 and with the proper hunting/shooting skills, can be enough gun to finish off any animal on this continent.

TheFamousGrouse wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Randy Wieland wrote:</div>
I wonder if views would be different if the word “mag” was omitted….. often think the Magnum designation is a sales tool.

Essentially, the magnum designation is a marketing gimmick.

The original use of the term “magnum” as applied to firearms/cartridges was to differentiate cartridges (mainly of British origin) that had a larger case capacities from other cartridges that had the same bullet diameter, but shorter cases. It must have struck someone that the situation was similar to wine bottles that had the same basic shape, but obviously a magnum is a much larger bottle.

The problem was, the originals quickly faded away leaving the “magnums” without anything to differentiate themselves from. It’s basically been a marketing term ever since.

And a damn effective one at that! I mean, really, who wants a .300 Winchester (boring!) when you could have a .300 Winchester Magnum?

I’ve often said that if it were possible to rebrand the .30-06 as the .30 Ultra Magnum, sales would double overnight. If Remington had added “magnum” after the ill-fated 6 MM Remington we’d have never heard of the .243 Winchester.

Grouse

I think the problem with the 6mm Remington is the 6mm instead of .243, rather than the lack of being called magnum.
Remington also made a 6.5 Rem magnum that faded away.

To the OP.
I have nothing against magnums, but I’ve never been that mad at a deer, I just want to invite them to dinner.

pale ryder wrote:

To the OP.
I’ve never been that mad at a deer, I just want to invite them to dinner.

In comparing deer (whitetail) shot with my daughters .270 WIN and my 270WSM with similar impact locations/pathway , we have less meat loss with the WSM. Cleaner flesh channel and blown up organs. Her 270 WIN seems to leave more bruised up meat. More meat for me at the dinner table

Re: Grouses comments about recoil sensitivity.

I bought a Tikka T3 Lite in 300WM last year. Shot it a bit and could not figure out why I could not group tightly with it. After much thought and trial/error(and questions/advice from here) I determined that I simply wasn’t comfortable or accustomed to the recoil. It flat out kicked hard and I didn’t like it.

I made my mind up to power through it a little at a time, and I am on my way to conquering the issue. I find that if I think it through, and really concentrate on doing it right, that my grouping has tightened considerably. Each range visit is showing better and better results, and I anticipate a sub-MOA weapon out of it in the future.

As far as deer killing, my 30-06’s will continue to see woods time, as I can not envision an ethical situation in my area that the ’06 will not kill a deer that the .300 will.

I shoot a .270 Win. IMO the popularity of this cartridge is largely due to the perfect compromise achieved between killing power and recoil. Unless I knew the shots could be over 200 yds I fail to see a reason to punish myself with more gun for deer. At the range, once I verify sight in I often continue to shoot pop cans or offhand shots at stationary clay targets. I enjoy target shooting the .270. How many magnum users can say that? I recently reloaded a batch of 7 mm Rem. mag for a friend. I did enjoy shooting those test loads only after placing 3 layers of carpet pad under my coat over my shoulder.

Don and others that have commented about the recoil I guess I’m opening my eyes more two more people being affected by the recoil I personally enjoy shooting and the recoil has never been an issue or an effect to me something I just never really given much thought to so after reading multiple replies about the recoil I am opening my eyes more to how some people are affected by that and can definitely understand and respect it

Randy – I find it somewhat humorous about the recoil. I know a man who’s daughter has accompanied him all over creation in the pursuit of big game. She has taken moose, elk, grizzly, red stag, a couple species of sheep and multiple other exotics (yes….the family is quite well off….). She currently does not hunt at all, as it just doesn’t appeal to her any more. In all the years she was tagging along with dad, she toted a .300 Weatherby Mag. She shot the heck out of that gun – and very effectively. She is about 5’4″ tall and 115lbs. Kind of makes me wonder what kind of wimp my momma raised when I don’t like the recoil of my 300WM……lol.

I think there are more guys that are affected by it than will admit to it though. I also think that conditioning and practice will overcome the issue for me, as I can already see the results of disciplined focus at the range.

Steve Root wrote:

“The original use of the term “magnum” as applied to firearms/cartridges was to differentiate cartridges (mainly of British origin) that had a larger case capacities from other cartridges that had the same bullet diameter, but shorter cases.”

Isn’t this what they used to call an “express” load?

“Express” was actually a pure marketing term that one of the London (or maybe Birmingham) gunmakers came up with. I believe it was Purdy, but I don’t have my books to look it up right now.

I do recall it is frequently referenced in ad and magazine copy circa 1880. “As powerful as an Express train.”

Unlike the use of the term “Nitro” that often preceded “Express”, the Express part had no functional meaning. It just added marketing muscle.

Grouse

Timmy wrote:

Re: Grouses comments about recoil sensitivity.

I bought a Tikka T3 Lite in 300WM last year. Shot it a bit and could not figure out why I could not group tightly with it. After much thought and trial/error(and questions/advice from here) I determined that I simply wasn’t comfortable or accustomed to the recoil. It flat out kicked hard and I didn’t like it.

I made my mind up to power through it a little at a time, and I am on my way to conquering the issue. I find that if I think it through, and really concentrate on doing it right, that my grouping has tightened considerably. Each range visit is showing better and better results, and I anticipate a sub-MOA weapon out of it in the future.

While I commend you for putting in the range time, the sad reality is you’re doing what the vast majority will NEVER do. First, you’ve correctly diagnosed your own problem. Secondly, you’re willing to put in the work to try to correct it.

Also, you have to keep in mind that American guns and American game in general is at the very low end of “magnum” territory. In Africa the .300 Win Mag is considered a fine cartridge for casual Sunday plinking and perhaps light, thin skinned plains game. It is certainly not a rifle one would take it into the bush where there was a chance of bumping into something nasty that required sorting out post haste.

The hill becomes increasingly steep as one moves past the usual sub – .35 North American territory. You will often hear African guides reference “the thirty line”. It becomes more and more difficult for the average hunter to shoot well as the caliber moves north of .30.

The largest rifle I have shot is a .416 Rem and I can tell you that it would certainly take a dedicated effort to learn to shoot something of this level well. The common saying that it’s more of a push than a kick is complete cobblers, it’s a push like having an freight train push you out of the way while you were standing on the tracks.

Grouse

Recoil affects everyone different, I really don’t have any issues with it but then again I shoot a lot, the felt recoil is also a result of the rifle setup.

My worst case scenario was 43 rounds fired from the 338LM in a 4-1/2 minute drill, thats a lot happening fast, targets ranged from 100 meters to 1000 meters. This was in August with a light shirt on and the weight of rifle 16 lbs.

Rifle set up and what can dampen the effect of recoil is

The stlye of butt pad used.

Rifle properly set up to be comfortable while in a shooting position – if your not comfortable while aiming and shooting it will react different.

Weight – Light guns are easy to carry. But a little extra weight that is user freindly on the stalk or walkin to the stand pays back ten fold as far as absorbing recoil.

Muzzle Brakes – defiantly help but also induce noise back to the shooter, if the shooter wears hearing protection anyways then it’s not a issue. Muzzle brakes if ordered correctly really do make a difference.

Better then a muzzle brake and legal in most states with the right paperwork Suppressors which are gaining popularity, they combine recoil reduction with noise reduction.

So a person can take a few steps and greatly change the effects of the felt recoil.

Last week at camp we let a few folks shoot a new rifle we just built, a 375 Snipe Tac. This rifle pushes a 350 grain bullet at 3200fps with the energy at the Muzzle 7933 lbs. which in case anyone want to compare would be 3096 lbs at 1000 yards.

The whole reason here is to mention that we told the folks it kicks less then a 6.5×47 that they were used to shooting, their first shot was tense then in awe relizing we were not BSing. this rifle had a very good brake, recoil pad and weighed in a 25 lbs.

The whole reason for what I have stated is (little things a person can do really can help) Magnum or not rifles should be fun to shoot and NOT beat the heck out of you especially new shooters. Fun guns to use and shoot = happy hunters and shooters that will be enjoying the sport for and be around for a while.

Just a note. I only reference equipment, FPS, energy levels and whatever in order to show hard facts and true information. Not stuff that I found off of the web or charts or assuming. Don’t take this the wrong way, I more then likely gave out more info then needed to help, Not to brag but to help, a few here may know me and would have to agree.

JH

JH, I couldn’t imagine lugging around a 25# set up for hunting.. but I know that isn’t your application. Appreciate your insight. You’ve helped me a lot in the 700 to 1000yrd shots. My goal is now set for a 2000 yrd shot…and a little luck.

This brings up an interesting point. Personally I think stock design has a lot more to do with perceived recoil than caliber. For example, my 30-06 is a Ruger M77 with a Les Brownell designed stock. I can shoot it all afternoon and not feel any wear and tear. The recoil pushes straight back into my shoulder. On the other hand, I have a terrible time with a Winchester M94. No way that 30-30 is a bigger round than an ’06, but when I shoot the little lever gun it smacks me right in the face every time. It’s all about stock design.

I’m willing to bet a lot of guys had their first experience with magnums fired from a Weatherby. A lot of those rifles had the high comb, raised cheek piece style of stock which I personally find miserable to shoot. It would be less painful if somebody grabbed the thing and hit me in the face with it like a baseball bat. Again, not the caliber…..it’s all about a gun that fits you and you’re comfortable shooting.

Totally agree, Steve.

I would throw in another factor: Weight.

In the US, many have become obsessed with super-light “mountain” rifles and while these are terrific to carry, their lack of mass means they are punishing to shoot. A sub-7 (or even a sub 6.5) pound rifle in a >.30 magnum chambering is going to kick like a mule, there’s no two ways about it. Obviously, these guns are designed for hunting, not shooting, but to get to the hunting, you’d better have practiced the shooting or you won’t be doing any hitting.

I love Sako’s Finnlite in .300 WSM, but it was only “lite” until I felt the recoil. That smarts.

There’s a good reason why there are no lightweight safari-class magnums out there. Yikes! Who wants to be the first to shoot my new .375 H&H “mountain rifle”? Only 6.5 pounds. I’m flinching just thinking about it.

On first blush, people may wince at the idea that an 8 or even a 9+ pound rifle might actually be a good thing, but as they say, size matters.

Grouse