What would be your ideal MN Deer Season structure?

Pat McSharry wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>TheFamousGrouse wrote:</div>

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Pat McSharry wrote:</div>

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Pete S wrote:</div>
since I’m a simple guy, I’ll keep this simple – take the rifles out of hunters hands during the rut. I don’t know of too many big game seasons where they are allowed to use rifles during the peak of breeding

This is my only complaint. We all know that rifle hunting is a strong tradition in MN, and it has always opened the 2nd Saturday in November. If we changed the season to late November a lot more 2-3 year old bucks would live another year. I also would like to see a drawing for NR rifle hunters – they have to apply for a tag.

I’m not sure this is a given in the modern era that moving to the end of November would automatically get the bulk of the hunting away from the rut.

It is always speculative to say when the peak of the rut is, but IMO the rut activity that we see has been spread out over a much longer period of time and the intensity seems much lower and I wonder how much the warming weather trends drive this?

Deer hunting in Zone 1 especially used to be in what I’d call “early winter” and from when I first started hunting in 1983 to the late 1990s, we never went beyond the second weekend in my area of Zone 1 without having significant snowfall and the average daytime high was in the upper 20s to low 30s during the entire season.

Fast forward to the 2000s and we have rarely seen even passing snow and we routinely have daytime highs in the 50s or warmer for almost the whole season.

Is it the case that if the season were to open after, say, November 20, there is a high probability the rut is over in most places?

Grouse

Well that’s where things get to be kind of tricky. What most people classify as the “rut” (when you see the most daylight activity of bucks seeking does, checking scrapes, rubbing, fighting, even chasing) is actually the seeking and chasing phases of the rut and not the peak breeding time. The peak breeding time is not when you will necessarily see the most activity. It’s actually probably the hardest phase of the rut to hunt. Bucks can be locked down with does for up to 72 hours and will only move when they move.

Pulling the season further away from the seeking and chasing phase of the rut would definitely have a big impact. From my interactions with deer in the woods and the research I have done, the seeking and chasing phases of the rut are typically somewhere between October 25th to November 15th. So is the rut over after November 20th? Absolutely not. I would however say that the peak of the seeking and chasing phases are over.

The phases do overlap and a lot of it has to do with when the does in your area go into estrous so it’s not a fail safe rule of thumb by any means. My opinion is that peak breeding is usually always around mid November.

Please realize that this is my opinion as well. Their are a lot of different theories on this.

I like the idea of a drawing for NR gun hunters!

I would also like to see a quotain regards to anterless deer. For example deer permit area 343 is in a managed zone. Every resident in Rochester could theoretically purchase a regular and bonus tag. Set a quota for antlerless tags (like most other states do) permit area specific. Ex. Permit area 343 has a quota of 500 antlerless tags sold either first come first serve or through a drawing.

cboutdoors wrote:

I would also like to see a quotain regards to anterless deer. For example deer permit area 343 is in a managed zone. Every resident in Rochester could theoretically purchase a regular and bonus tag. Set a quota for antlerless tags (like most other states do) permit area specific. Ex. Permit area 343 has a quota of 500 antlerless tags sold either first come first serve or through a drawing.

I think this is already done for many of the MN permit areas based on the population estimates and goals for that permit area. I’ve hunted permit area 156 for 35+ years. Over that time period I’ve seen bucks only, to limited antlerless permits via lottery, to expanded lottery permits, to either/or (1 deer harvest per year), to OTC extra tags (2 deer harvest per year) and then back to limited antlerless lottery permits.

A lot of comes down to how fast is the deer population changing in that permit area and are the regulations adequately achieving the population target. The DNR is obviously using hunting as a population control tool. It may be more noticeable in Zone 1 because winters can be more of a wild card.

Don’t change a thing… Okay maybe change the number of does allowed to harvest or you will end up like Wisconsin where I moved from last year and have hunted for the last 35 years.

I moved from Wi last year and all I can say is that MN has things figured out when it comes to deer management. You actually get the best opportunities to hunt for trophy whitetail if you so choose. The number of deer is incredible and the number of trophy bucks is great. The ability to hunt with a shotgun during the rut is great. Why would you not want to opportunity to not hunt with a shotgun during the rut. The APR is great. It allows deer to at least possibly survive a couple of years. Yes their are deer that will never meet this restriction so that is one downfall.

The season structure is great. Long bow season. My favorite. Gun season during the rut. Late gun season if you choose and a long muzzleloader season.

There is a reason that people from out of state would die to hunt MN. A true trophy potential state with a ton of deer.

Thanks,

RVRDUX

RVRDUX wrote:

Don’t change a thing… Okay maybe change the number of does allowed to harvest or you will end up like Wisconsin where I moved from last year and have hunted for the last 35 years.

I moved from Wi last year and all I can say is that MN has things figured out when it comes to deer management. You actually get the best opportunities to hunt for trophy whitetail if you so choose. The number of deer is incredible and the number of trophy bucks is great. The ability to hunt with a shotgun during the rut is great. Why would you not want to opportunity to not hunt with a shotgun during the rut. The APR is great. It allows deer to at least possibly survive a couple of years. Yes their are deer that will never meet this restriction so that is one downfall.

The season structure is great. Long bow season. My favorite. Gun season during the rut. Late gun season if you choose and a long muzzleloader season.

There is a reason that people from out of state would die to hunt MN. A true trophy potential state with a ton of deer.

Thanks,

RVRDUX

I can’t tell, was your tongue firmly embedded in your cheek when you typed this? when you say people from out of state would die to hunt in MN, what’s stopping them? maybe your job title has the initials D-N-R in it somewhere??? No offense, no one that I know that hunts WI ever says “boy I wish our deer herd compared to MN” Iowa and Illinois yes, MN-sorry.

I can’t tell, was your tongue firmly embedded in your cheek when you typed this? when you say people from out of state would die to hunt in MN, what’s stopping them? maybe your job title has the initials D-N-R in it somewhere??? No offense, no one that I know that hunts WI ever says “boy I wish our deer herd compared to MN” Iowa and Illinois yes, MN-sorry.

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No it was not tongue and cheek at all. Maybe it is different in certain areas of the state but southeastern MN is incredible. Western WI. used to have great hunting but no more. The deer population has been pretty much eliminated along with the trophy potential. Yes Iowa and Illinois are great also. But southeat MN is surely a sought after destination for whitetail hunters.

Pete S wrote:

I can’t tell, was your tongue firmly embedded in your cheek when you typed this? when you say people from out of state would die to hunt in MN, what’s stopping them? maybe your job title has the initials D-N-R in it somewhere??? No offense, no one that I know that hunts WI ever says “boy I wish our deer herd compared to MN” Iowa and Illinois yes, MN-sorry.

Before we go too far down the “Woe Was Us” road, I have to ask: Do you currently hunt in any of the states the you point to as Deer Nirvanas?

I personally know a LOT of northern Wisconsin wishes that they HAD a deer heard. At all. Weather it compares to Minnesota, Mississippi, or Michigan, matters not, anything would be an improvement over the crashes they’ve had in some areas in northern WI. So while things aren’t perfect here, it could and is worse in some other states.

Sure, we’d all like to hunt the monsters in IA, IL, IN, etc, but the one thing holding most people back is that it’s all well and good to have huge deer, but unless you own a private farm down there or know somebody who does, it can be a LOT harder to actually HUNT anything, especially as a non-resident in those states. It certainly is nowhere near as simple as in MN where even a non-resident can buy an OTC tag.

So many people in MN have vastly more land to hunt available to them due to our large amounts of public land here in MN. It does you no good to have huge deer and good numbers if you can’t get access to an land to hunt them.

I was not trying to ruffle any feathers here. I was simply pointing out that I feel that MN is doing things right from what I have seen now and in the past from people who have hunted and lived their for many years. It is just nice to hunt and see deer and quality deer at that. It is just relaxing to hunt here.

Now to answer the OP question I would have the number of antlerless deer allowed reduced otherwise MN will end up in the same situation as WI is currently.

Thanks,

RVRDUX

TheFamousGrouse wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Pete S wrote:</div>
I can’t tell, was your tongue firmly embedded in your cheek when you typed this? when you say people from out of state would die to hunt in MN, what’s stopping them? maybe your job title has the initials D-N-R in it somewhere??? No offense, no one that I know that hunts WI ever says “boy I wish our deer herd compared to MN” Iowa and Illinois yes, MN-sorry.

Before we go too far down the “Woe Was Us” road, I have to ask: Do you currently hunt in any of the states the you point to as Deer Nirvanas?

I personally know a LOT of northern Wisconsin wishes that they HAD a deer heard. At all. Weather it compares to Minnesota, Mississippi, or Michigan, matters not, anything would be an improvement over the crashes they’ve had in some areas in northern WI. So while things aren’t perfect here, it could and is worse in some other states.

I’m not sure why it matters if I’ve ever hunted other states? I’ve never fished in Ontario, does that mean I can’t say it’s better fishing than the metro lakes where I have fished? You’re absolutely right about N WI, the herd is decimated in areas.

As for the public land and access, it does no good to have land to access if there are no deer. I like WI’s recent approach to tags being administered for private and public land separately, time will tell if this enables the population to expand in those areas.

RVRDUX wrote:

I was not trying to ruffle any feathers here. I was simply pointing out that I feel that MN is doing things right from what I have seen now and in the past from people who have hunted and lived their for many years. It is just nice to hunt and see deer and quality deer at that. It is just relaxing to hunt here.

Now to answer the OP question I would have the number of antlerless deer allowed reduced otherwise MN will end up in the same situation as WI is currently.

Thanks,

RVRDUX

I’m curious, you say you moved from Western WI where there are no deer. Which county were you hunting? I hunt several counties in West and SW WI and the herd and trophy potential are doing well.

Pete S. Jackson County..

RVRDUX

TheFamousGrouse wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Pete S wrote:</div>
I can’t tell, was your tongue firmly embedded in your cheek when you typed this? when you say people from out of state would die to hunt in MN, what’s stopping them? maybe your job title has the initials D-N-R in it somewhere??? No offense, no one that I know that hunts WI ever says “boy I wish our deer herd compared to MN” Iowa and Illinois yes, MN-sorry.

Before we go too far down the “Woe Was Us” road, I have to ask: Do you currently hunt in any of the states the you point to as Deer Nirvanas?

I personally know a LOT of northern Wisconsin wishes that they HAD a deer heard. At all. Weather it compares to Minnesota, Mississippi, or Michigan, matters not, anything would be an improvement over the crashes they’ve had in some areas in northern WI. So while things aren’t perfect here, it could and is worse in some other states.

Sure, we’d all like to hunt the monsters in IA, IL, IN, etc, but the one thing holding most people back is that it’s all well and good to have huge deer, but unless you own a private farm down there or know somebody who does, it can be a LOT harder to actually HUNT anything, especially as a non-resident in those states. It certainly is nowhere near as simple as in MN where even a non-resident can buy an OTC tag.

So many people in MN have vastly more land to hunt available to them due to our large amounts of public land here in MN. It does you no good to have huge deer and good numbers if you can’t get access to an land to hunt them.

Great comment by Grouse. I grew up in Iowa and have hunted there for many years. The area that I grew up in had small wood lots, little public land, and smaller size farms relative to the larger parcels in the southern part of the state. Iowa is the mecca of deer hunting for many hunters, but the entire state of Iowa does not have 150″ bucks behind every tree. In fact, within my family and a combined 50 years of whitetail hunting between 4 people 149″ is the best deer any of us have ever harvested. With any game species the top end trophy animals relate to ideal habitat and management practices. The largest deer I have ever seen on the hoof occured the first year I moved to Minnesota on a small chunk of public land in Olmstead Co. With some slight changes to the season structure (moving the gun season out of the seeking and chasing phase of the rut) I think we can have our cake and eat it too (improved buck age structure, that are accesible to the majority of hunters through the fast public lands of MN.

cboutdoors wrote:

Iowa is the mecca of deer hunting for many hunters, but the entire state of Iowa does not have 150″ bucks behind every tree. In fact, within my family and a combined 50 years of whitetail hunting between 4 people 149″ is the best deer any of us have ever harvested. With any game species the top end trophy animals relate to ideal habitat and management practices.

That isn’t just Iowa either. I have no expectations of a weekend deer hunting outdoors show coming to my little neck of the woods in NE central MN anytime soon. I would say there are opportunities for 130-150 class deer but you need far more commitment than I have and you may need to hold out multiple seasons for your chances. There’s plenty of cover but we simply lack mineral. Sure, we have iron, copper and nickel but I don’t think those are the ones that improve antler growth. There’s no agriculture to speak of other than a little beef cattle. No shortage of meat hunters including humans, wolves and the bear varieties. You also have the potential for periodic winter kill. I would say we’re in year 3 of the “recovery”. Looking at the 2014 WSIs for both MN & WI it doesn’t surprise me northern WI is also seeing similar effects. Not sure how you can manage for Old Man Winter.

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Pete S wrote:

I’m not sure why it matters if I’ve ever hunted other states? I’ve never fished in Ontario, does that mean I can’t say it’s better fishing than the metro lakes where I have fished? You’re absolutely right about N WI, the herd is decimated in areas.

The reason it matters is that it does no good to know where better hunting is in terms of animal numbers or attributes if one cannot actually hunt there.

Using your example of Ontario and fishing, should Ontario decide to stop allowing all non-residents to fish, then NO, you can’t say it’s better fishing because you and I cannot fish there. Ontario might have greater numbers of fish, it might have better fishing for residents who are allowed to fish, but for you and I, Ontario would have NO fishing.

I was pointing out that in MN our deer hunting culture is built around a lot of expectations, one of which is that everyone gets to hunt via OTC tags even for non-residents. Relatively speaking, MN hunters have traditionally been concerned mainly about deer numbers. We have weapon options that include rifle in some zones at least. This is all coupled with a large amount of public land as compared to many other states.

I would agree that there are certainly states with more mature bucks, etc, but these states came to this result via a direction that would be anywhere from difficult to impossible to replicate in MN. And that would only come after the Minnesota hunters answered “yes” to the question of do we even want to try?

Grouse

Not going to beat around the bush. I’m a trophy hunter and landowner in Zone 241(3rd highest permit area for deer shot per square mile(8.6 per square mile) and 4th highest hunter density(14.9 hunters per square mile)).

Here is my ideal season:
1 buck per year. Bonus doe tag if the permit area supports it.

Youth Gun: Mid-September opener to Oct 1., MEA weekend, etc.

Archery: September 1st opener!!!! to Dec. 31

Muzzeloader: First Saturday in December to the 2nd Sunday in December.

Gun: (using 2016 dates)

All zones pushed back 1-2 weeks. For the people that say a lot of people from WI(or other states) hunt MN, I find that theory to not be true. Only 3.63% of firearms tags sold last year were from non-residents(most probably hunted SE MN-I’d like to find the data to support this). The state is simply not a trophy destination(except SE MN since the APR’s).

APR’s in zone 3 and the next 10 highest deer densities in Zone 2. (Public land is exempt).
I don’t understand land owners in high deer density areas that don’t support APR’s. If you own 600+ acres, than you can truly manage your ground the way you want. If you don’t then you are at the liberty of your neighbors not shooting small bucks. A bucks home range is roughly 1 square mile(more during the rut).
APR’s would increase the age structure and more mature bucks would be around. It would also increase your property values and put the state back on the map as a destination state. I usually hunt one or two other states per year for the trophy potential. MN is Sooooooo far behind compared to IA, MO, NE, SD, etc.
Hopefully at some point in my lifetime things change. In the mean time, I’ll be forced to buy more out of state tags.

Ranger I agree with everything you said EXCEPT APR’s. I too am a trophy hunter and hunt for big horns on mature deer. That being said I don’t expect or want to require everyone else to be a trophy hunter. My take is if you want to hunt big deer with big horns, then buy your own land. Enough to manage it for trophy hunting. BUT I don’t believe we should force the entire hunting population of MN to be trophy hunters or manage the entire state for trophy hunting.

Another point to APR’s is they don’t necessarily create big deer. I have walls full of racks from when my brothers, Dad and I were younger and shot the first buck we saw. I would be willing to bet less than 10% are more than 1.5 years old and a minimum of half of those are 8 point or better, in fact I bet 75% are 8 or better. I could shoot a 1.5 year old buck every single year on our farm and still be within the APR’s. Trophy bucks come from age structure not the number of tines on the rack.

@grouse – point taken.

Sticker-You can’t manage the heard as a landowner unless you own at least 600 acres of contiguous land. You can definitely make an impact by trying to hold and grow bucks on your farm with less acreage, but you can’t stop them from jumping the fence to the neighbors. Have you talked to all your neighbors and know what their goals are?
I believe studies have shown that APR’s would protect 50-70% of 1.5 year old bucks. I’ve talked to numerous people that has hunted SE MN since the inception of APR’s and the buck hunting now is unbelievable. You can also look at studies in MO in area’s that implemented APR’s and hunter satisfaction went from 30% satisfied to 70%-85%. Same can be said for areas in MI, PA, NY, and NJ.
Check out this article by Jim Brauker(from MI). If you’ve researched deer habitat, you probably know who this guy is.

APRs: Why Do So Many Michigan Hunters Like Them?

Take a look at the harvest chart for yearling and 3.5 year old bucks. The statistics are pretty impressive.

APR’s would also help balance the buck to doe ratio. I would be willing to bet in our area that the ratio is 4/1. APR’s would decrease doe numbers, which clearly needs to be done in our area and likely in yours.

I don’t recommend that APR’s be implemented in all parts of the state, but it would sure work in areas with higher deer densities. It would only take one year for the hunting to go from good to fantastic.

Sorry, but I wouldn’t believe a single word I read from QDMA. I have zero faith in that organization. I can’t open the article by clicking on the qdma logo, I just assumed that is where it came from.

As for having to have 600 acres to manage the herd, I really don’t buy that either. Maybe half of that and you would be surprised at the impact you can have. They are wild deer so not even 600 acres is enough to keep them inside your boundaries.

In any case, that is not the point I am trying to make. My point is not all hunters in MN want to manage the herd for trophy deer, and I for one respect other peoples choices. I don’t see how we as trophy hunters can tell Bob next door he has to let small bucks go on his 40 acres of land he bought with his own money so I can trophy hunt. Again, I am a trophy hunter too, but I will not tell my neighbors they have to be also.

We have talked to the neighbors and asked if they were interested in letting the young bucks walk. Some of them are on board, others are not. I am ok with that and I definitely don’t think the DNR should step in. Just my opinion.

If MN would move the gun season out of the seeking and chasing phase of the rut we would not need APR IMHO. The proof is in the record books, all one needs to do is look up how many more mature bucks are taken in Iowa then MN to know that Iowa does a much better job at managing there deer herd. Don’t get me wrong I like what APR has done for SE MN I see way more 3 and 4 year old bucks now then I did just a few years ago, but it could be so much better, APR is not the cure all fix for MN. If I had my way I would love to see the gun season moved to the first week in Dec but that would make allot of gun only hunters very unhappy so I think a good compromise would be to have one shot gun season, the dates would be the same as the 3B season now. I am only talking about SE MN and not the rest of the state, I really do not have an opinion on the rest of the state nor do I feel that I am qualified to give one as I only hunt in SE MN, but I will be bow hunting NE Iowa this year for the first time ever and I cannot wait!!!

Here is my ideal SE MN season:
1 buck per year per hunter, no party hunting for bucks, Bonus doe tag if the permit area supports it.

Archery: Same as it is now.

Youth Gun: Same as it is now.

Shot Gun: One season same dates as 3B season is now.

Muzzeloader: First Saturday in December to the 2nd Sunday in December.

I would also love to see MN bring back the ALL SEASONS LICENSE one license for bow, gun and muzzle loader, you get two tags with this license and can hunt the whole state if you wish.

Sticker agree with everything you said great points.

Hoyt4 wrote:

Sticker agree with everything you said great points.

x2.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder is the key here. The original question was what your ideal deer season structure would be and I for one, went into “how to manage the state for trophy deer” mode. If your goal is to manage the state for trophy potential then I think it will take a generational shift in the way people approach their deer hunting. If people want to fill their freezer then the current system probably suits them just fine.

Pete S wrote:

If your goal is to manage the state for trophy potential then I think it will take a generational shift in the way people approach their deer hunting. If people want to fill their freezer then the current system probably suits them just fine.

Funny you never see a thread about harvesting pheasants with tail feathers longer than 22″ or turkeys with spurs longer than 3/4″.

I suppose people can try to slice it anyway they want but every animal harvested thru hunting is going onto the plate or into the freezer. Or… at least that’s what people have done for their entire history.

Pete S wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Hoyt4 wrote:</div>
Sticker agree with everything you said great points.

x2.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder is the key here. The original question was what your ideal deer season structure would be and I for one, went into “how to manage the state for trophy deer” mode. If your goal is to manage the state for trophy potential then I think it will take a generational shift in the way people approach their deer hunting. If people want to fill their freezer then the current system probably suits them just fine.

Pete S wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Hoyt4 wrote:</div>
Sticker agree with everything you said great points.

x2.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder is the key here. The original question was what your ideal deer season structure would be and I for one, went into “how to manage the state for trophy deer” mode. If your goal is to manage the state for trophy potential then I think it will take a generational shift in the way people approach their deer hunting. If people want to fill their freezer then the current system probably suits them just fine.

It is kind of the same thing Pete, if you have a healthy and balanced deer heard you will have more mature bucks, if MN would move the gun season out of the seeking and chasing phase of the rut like Iowa then MN could do away with APR and let everyone shoot any buck they want, it would be the best of both worlds.

STOP shooting DOES in the 3A season.!! Go back to the BUCKS ONLY season with APR. … rrr