What a bunch of bolony!

  • philtickelson
    Inactive
    Mahtomedi, MN
    Posts: 1678
    #1885520

    Those that choose to ignore history…
    …are doomed to repeat it.

    What are we doomed to repeat in this scenario? Oh no, if we were wrong about the climate crisis then we made the planet cleaner and converted to renewable energy sources for nothing! What a complete disaster! We’ll have created millions of jobs and made the world a better place for our children FOR NO REASON!

    This isn’t like ignoring warning signs of an impending genocide or something.

    Many more things happening within the white house today that fit your quote better than ‘climate crisis’.

    mplspug
    Palmetto, Florida
    Posts: 25026
    #1885526

    Created millions of jobs? You factoring the number of jobs lost? I’m going to take a guess that digging up and refining oil provides more jobs per kilowatt than engineers on a wind/solar farm.

    Like Andy said we are all for moving to cleaner energy and cleaning up our messes, but not because of a supposed “crisis” and not at the speed that it hurts our economy and standard of living.

    philtickelson
    Inactive
    Mahtomedi, MN
    Posts: 1678
    #1885541

    Created millions of jobs? You factoring the number of jobs lost? I’m going to take a guess that digging up and refining oil provides more jobs per kilowatt than engineers on a wind/solar farm.

    Like Andy said we are all for moving to cleaner energy and cleaning up our messes, but not because of a supposed “crisis” and not at the speed that it hurts our economy and standard of living.

    How many jobs were needed to build the infrastructure that supports our oil industry? The amount of work to build/maintain renewable energy as a primary source would be massive.

    And it’s not like they’d blow up all the oil companies, there will still be a large need for oil for years to come, so we aren’t talking about removing every oil job in existence, but they would likely be scaled back significantly over time.

    Oil companies are already scaling back their workforce, and more will be lost to automation. Even if nothing is done to move towards renewable energy, there will continue to be a loss of jobs due to other factors. There were 100,000 employees at Exxon/Mobil in 2000, that number is now 70,000.

    Jobs are already being lost, and will continue to be lost, regardless of what happens with renewable energy. It would likely be a significant net gain in jobs.

    biggill
    East Bethel, MN
    Posts: 11321
    #1885544

    Like Andy said we are all for moving to cleaner energy and cleaning up our messes, but not because of a supposed “crisis” and not at the speed that it hurts our economy and standard of living.

    100% agree but we just need to make sure that there aren’t any legal or political road blocks to do so. Typically the oil and gas industry gets significant tax breaks and subsidies which could make for a unethical playing field.

    The cost of oil and gas is extremely low and the cost at alternative energy sources need to be in the same ballpark or better for the entire country to get on board. There’s absolutely no reason that can’t happen.

    The jobs lost in oil and gas would be far reaching. Drilling and refining are the tiniest tip of the iceberg when you look at the impact that oil and gas has on jobs in this country. The company I work for made about 70-80% of its revenue on the oil and gas industry from 2014-2017. We make part for both subsea and topside drilling. I wouldn’t be surprised if 10% of jobs in the country would be directly affected.

    biggill
    East Bethel, MN
    Posts: 11321
    #1885547

    How many jobs were needed to build the infrastructure that supports our oil industry? The amount of work to build/maintain renewable energy as a primary source would be massive.

    One thing to understand is that the oil and gas industry is very heavily regulated by the American Petroleum Institute (API). This is essentially ISO certification on steroids and these requirements are passed onto their vendors. The reason for this is the extreme safety and environmental risks associated with drilling and refining. Jobs in this sector are very highly skilled. Something our country is well suited for. If you convert this manufacturing into something less skilled, I assure you a lot of those jobs would go overseas.

    Walleyestudent Andy Cox
    Garrison MN-Mille Lacs
    Posts: 4484
    #1885548

    I’ll stay away from everything else in this so called conversation, but wanted to point out this is terrible logic for not believing in climate change.

    But Phil ??

    Just couldn’t help yourself, could ya? doah

    Hey…Friday night tonight, what will you be pouring?

    I need to stop at the booze store on my way home. Any scotch recommendations for anything less than a $ grand? wink

    biggill
    East Bethel, MN
    Posts: 11321
    #1885549

    I need to stop at the booze store on my way home. Any scotch recommendations for anything less than a $ grand?

    I’m perfect happy with a bottle of Jameson. wave

    philtickelson
    Inactive
    Mahtomedi, MN
    Posts: 1678
    #1885563

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>philtickelson wrote:</div>
    I’ll stay away from everything else in this so called conversation, but wanted to point out this is terrible logic for not believing in climate change.

    But Phil ??

    Just couldn’t help yourself, could ya? doah

    Hey…Friday night tonight, what will you be pouring?

    I need to stop at the booze store on my way home. Any scotch recommendations for anything less than a $ grand? wink

    Haha, hey I really did try!

    What’s your budget for a scotch recommendation? Do you like light and fruity, briney, or smokey/peaty? Now’s the time to buy before the 25% tariff goes into effect at the end of the year.

    As for me, well I will probably start off the night with a bourbon cream + root beer(phenomenal! Find Ezra Brooks bourbon cream for ~$12, no need to pay $25 for Buffalo Trace), then I will probably move onto something else.

    I just opened a bottle of Glenfarclas 105 that’s I’ll probably dip into, although I had a dram of Ardbeg Uigeadail earlier this week and the smoke/sherry combo hit the spot pretty good!

    Steve Root
    South St. Paul, MN
    Posts: 5623
    #1885566

    “The cost of oil and gas is extremely low and the cost at alternative energy sources need to be in the same ballpark or better for the entire country to get on board. There’s absolutely no reason that can’t happen.”

    One reason it isn’t happening sooner is that we don’t have any practical way to store energy. Right now we store energy in the chemical bonds in fossil fuel molecules. You need more energy to get the truck up the next hill? Step on the pedal and burn more fuel. Coasting down the other side? Burn less. The same thing applies to electrical power distribution. When everybody turns on the air conditioners, the power company burns more fuel to meet the demand. When demand drops, they burn less. You can’t do that with wind or solar power. You can generate electricity when conditions are favorable, when the wind is blowing or the sun is shining. We have no way to store any excess energy for later when the sun isn’t shining or the wind isn’t blowing.

    Battery technology isn’t there yet. Right now no matter how you look at it (by volume, by weight, by expense) petroleum based fuels contain much more energy than any battery. In addition, a lot of the newer battery technologies rely on exotic materials that aren’t found in the US. We’d be replacing “dependence of foreign oil” with “dependence on foreign metals”. Not the best plan.

    In the foreseeable future we have no choice but to use fossil fuels and augment that with “renewable” energy on the side.

    What we can do is conserve.

    S.R.

    mplspug
    Palmetto, Florida
    Posts: 25026
    #1885568

    The other thing about replacing jobs I always think about is you are replacing actual jobs with jobs that don’t exist which can be a risky proposition. And this is why we need a cautious and measured way of moving as much off gas as we can to other sources of energy and fuel.

    biggill
    East Bethel, MN
    Posts: 11321
    #1885569

    Battery technology isn’t there yet. Right now no matter how you look at it (by volume, by weight, by expense) petroleum based fuels contain much more energy than any battery. In addition, a lot of the newer battery technologies rely on exotic materials that aren’t found in the US. We’d be replacing “dependence of foreign oil” with “dependence on foreign metals”. Not the best plan.

    I definitely get all that but the point of my post was that there are clearly unnecessary hurdles in the form of tax breaks and subsidies in favor of the oil and gas industry that are counter productive in developing alternative energy sources. It’s a great way to slow development of competition.

    Steve Root
    South St. Paul, MN
    Posts: 5623
    #1885572

    Good points.

    I’d like to see the competition come in the form of recycling and conserving. I think there’s a huge potential savings there if we figured out how to use less stuff in the first place.

    biggill
    East Bethel, MN
    Posts: 11321
    #1885574

    Good points.

    I’d like to see the competition come in the form of recycling and conserving. I think there’s a huge potential savings there if we figured out how to use less stuff in the first place.

    Totally agree there too. I quit buying water. I am now reusing glass bottles to carry my water if I need it. I’d love to see a massive reduction of single use containers. I grew up in the 80’s and 90’s so I never really got to see what I was like in say the 40’s and 50’s before widespread use of plastics. I really wish I could have seen how we utilized things back then.

    moustachesteve
    Twin Cities
    Posts: 540
    #1885575

    Sorry if I’m being obtuse but do we really not have the ability to store energy for “passive” periods? Isn’t that what capacitors are for? Genuine question; not looking to poke the bear.

    biggill
    East Bethel, MN
    Posts: 11321
    #1885580

    Sorry if I’m being obtuse but do we really not have the ability to store energy for “passive” periods? Isn’t that what capacitors are for? Genuine question; not looking to poke the bear.

    I don’t have a confident answer but my understanding is no. I read that in AZ their sun farms are paying to offload their energy during times of surplus. That tells me they don’t have any way to efficiently store it.

    On the flip side, I get emails from Connexus Energy Coop boasting their technology to store energy. I’m not really sure what to think here. I’m guessing not on a large enough scale yet.

    http://www.connexusenergy.com/blog/2018/december-member-newsletter/

    Eelpoutguy
    Farmington, Outing
    Posts: 10436
    #1885582

    I ain’t to interested in the energy storage, but this sure caught my eye.

    December Member Newsletter

    Brandy Pumpkin Cheesecake
    Co-op Cuisine
    Brandy Pumpkin Cheesecake
    Ingredients:

    1 c graham cracker crumbs
    ¼ c sugar
    ½ c butter, melted
    20 oz cream cheese
    1 c sugar
    1 14 oz can pumpkin
    4 eggs
    2 ½ tsp ginger
    1 tbsp cinnamon
    ½ tsp nutmeg
    ¼ tsp cloves
    ⅓ cup brandy
    Preparation:

    For crust, combine crumbs, sugar, and butter. Press mixture into bottom of spring form pan. Bake at 350 degrees for 10 minutes.
    For filling, beat together cream cheese and sugar. Add eggs, one at a time, beating well after each addition. Add pumpkin, ginger, cinnamon, nutmeg, cloves, and brandy. Mix well until blended.
    Pour cheese mixture into crust and bake at 325 degrees for 50-60 minutes or until well risen. Turn off heat and let cheesecake cool in oven. Cool in fridge overnight before eating.

    BATTERY STORAGE CEO GREG RIDDERBUSCH CLEAN ENERGY CO-OP CUISINE RAMSEY MINNESOTA RAMSEY SOLAR RENEWABLE ENERGY SOLAR SOLAR ENERGY SOLAR-PLUS-STORAGE

    Reef W
    Posts: 2743
    #1885584

    Sorry if I’m being obtuse but do we really not have the ability to store energy for “passive” periods? Isn’t that what capacitors are for? Genuine question; not looking to poke the bear.

    There are lots of ways to store energy being tried. Besides the issues of cost compared to on-demand generation there are also issues like the resources to produce enough batteries or physical space used by some other methods. Not saying any of these can be widely deployed but just as examples of things that are being tried here’s some links:

    Xcel tested sodium-sulfur batteries 10 years ago, don’t know if it’s still around: https://www.xcelenergy.com/staticfiles/xe/Corporate/Environment/wind-to-battery%20fact%20sheet.pdf

    Molten salt uses solar energy to superheat a liquid salt mixture that is then used to create steam to power a turbine during periods without sunlight. A solar farm in Spain produced power for 24 hours a day for 36 days straight with this which was the record in 2013: https://torresolenergy.com/en/gemasolar-celebrates-its-second-anniversary-with-an-excellent-operational-record/

    Helsinki is storing heated water in caves: https://www.helen.fi/en/news/2018/gigantic-cavern-heat-storage-facility-to-be-implemented-in-mustikkamaa

    Hydrostor has a few projects in Canada that use compressed air: https://www.hydrostor.ca/

    There’s gravity systems like a giant weight in a mine shaft that gets lifted with excess energy. Or the craziest thing I’ve seen, but also the one that could be built anywhere relatively easily, is a tower with cranes on the top that would be built in a wind farm. The cranes build a tower of concrete blocks around themselves when the wind is blowing and then lower the blocks back down during off-times: https://energyvault.com/

    biggill
    East Bethel, MN
    Posts: 11321
    #1885585

    It begins with bolony and ends with cheesecake. Nicely done.

    mplspug
    Palmetto, Florida
    Posts: 25026
    #1885586

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Steve Root wrote:</div>
    Battery technology isn’t there yet. Right now no matter how you look at it (by volume, by weight, by expense) petroleum based fuels contain much more energy than any battery. In addition, a lot of the newer battery technologies rely on exotic materials that aren’t found in the US. We’d be replacing “dependence of foreign oil” with “dependence on foreign metals”. Not the best plan.

    I definitely get all that but the point of my post was that there are clearly unnecessary hurdles in the form of tax breaks and subsidies in favor of the oil and gas industry that are counter productive in developing alternative energy sources. It’s a great way to slow development of competition.

    I always hear oil companies get subsidies, but are they much different than normal corporations who get tax breaks for lost value on equipment for example or exploration? Like R&D costs usually is deductable because you aren’t getting revenue from it…I think.

    David Anderson
    Dayton, MN
    Posts: 506
    #1885654

    Interesting but long. Whether you a believer or not, the numbers are quite interesting and puts things into perspective…like the reference numbers. It brings to mind my theory on this, if we want to be successful with climate change, we need to get rid of 50% of the people on the earth. Enjoy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZlICdawHRA

    biggill
    East Bethel, MN
    Posts: 11321
    #1885678

    I always hear oil companies get subsidies, but are they much different than normal corporations who get tax breaks for lost value on equipment for example or exploration? Like R&D costs usually is deductable because you aren’t getting revenue from it…I think.

    I did a little digging yesterday about this and there are widely contrasting viewpoints. You can find any number of articles that shoot pretty far left so I won’t link any.

    This one is pretty far right. It aligns with what you are saying.
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/drillinginfo/2016/02/22/debunking-myths-about-federal-oil-gas-subsidies/amp/

    This one seems nearer the middle.
    https://www.eesi.org/papers/view/fact-sheet-fossil-fuel-subsidies-a-closer-look-at-tax-breaks-and-societal-costs

    It’s a pretty complicated subject and it doesn’t take much to fudge the numbers and construct a story that fits any narrative. With an industry as powerful as oil and gas, they will have a lot of influence on our lawmakers. Especially when the lawmakers hands are in the pockets of the oil industry.

    Eelpoutguy
    Farmington, Outing
    Posts: 10436
    #1885680

    One thing I learned after reading that is My friggin head is spinning and the tax laws are just idiotic.
    They give you huge subsidies on the front end then tax you on the back end but it’s so convoluted nobody can figure out if it’s good or bad. That way the Politicians can line their pockets and us dumb voters keep putting up with it.

    guthook1
    Lake Nebagamon Wisconsin
    Posts: 409
    #1885684

    Hopefully this will go through as my comment.Too old and not too good with this internet crap and don’t really much care.

    VID-20190924-WA0000.MP4
    5.77MB

    Walleyestudent Andy Cox
    Garrison MN-Mille Lacs
    Posts: 4484
    #1885701

    Hopefully this will go through as my comment.Too old and not too good with this internet crap and don’t really much care.

    VID-20190924-WA0000.MP4
    5.77MB

    Good you don’t care much about this internet “crap” because it didn’t come though… coffee

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