Walleyes/Saugers snagged below the jaw.

nhamm wrote:

Didn’t mean to offend ya Andy but very surprised in your fishing lifetime and on the forums this has never been brought up. Love the discussion.

No worries Nick. Perhaps I was being a bit overly sensitive being that it was “that time of the month” for me…

Yes…love the discussion. Good lessons learned here for me. What I have now realized from subsequent posts is that this seems to be a river phenomenon. Looks like all the posts are describing this on rivers. Which explains my never hearing of it since I’ve fished a river once, the Wisconsin River at the Dells. Always fished lakes (or ponds) my whole life and I’m guessing this is something exclusive to rivers or current? But who knows?
I agree that these fish are not being randomly snagged. There is likely as you say, “the fish isn’t one way or another interacting with that bait to get itself hooked as such.”
One thing to consider is that although walleye and sauger have highly sensitive vision is that they also rely on their lateral line more than many people know. Actually most all species rely on this “sonar” they have to hone in on forage. In total blackness, the fish first picks up the signal or vibration of the prey and moves in. It might only be with little or no vision that the fish strikes the bait. Wonder if something goes wonky under certain conditions that cause them to “foul the ball off”?
Anyway, I no longer believe in a conspiracy.

Having fished pool 4 quite a bit the last 5 years I strongly believe in the pinning theory. I do a lot of drifting and vertical jigging trying my darndest to the keep my line vertical. On some days with a very slow drop and a sensitive rod if you keep your line a tight as you can and the instant it touches bottom you will feel the fish pound it. Feels the same as any other bite except I know my jig is just barely in contact with the bottom. Most times the fish comes up with the jig right under it jaw, very close to the mouth. And I’ve noticed this is much more common with smaller fish in very large schools of fish. For those of you wondering how to increase hook up percentage, look for a semi-standup jig that will keep the hook point up when the jig is gently set on bottom.

To add to the theory which I observed last week during some morning coffee in front of the minnow tank after I feed the lil guys, fatheads will go almost vertical digging the flakes out of the rock. I could see this being a tough snatch for predators. Why not stun them a bit first by whacking em into the hard substrate as Gill mentioned, then gobble them up cleanly when they float off without sucking in a bunch of bottom crap, win win?

Thinking out loud….

Lastly, I’d like to add even if the fish are attacking your bait, if they are hooked outside of the mouth, technically you snagged it.

Pug, my understanding of the law is that catching a fish in MN with the hook on the outside of the mouth is legal, unless the angler is intentionally trying to snag the fish – then it’s illegal. So, if I catch a smallie on a jerkbait in the early spring with all the hooks on the outside of the mouth, that is a legal catch. Like with the walleye, you could say it was ‘snagged’, but not intentionally. Personally, I wouldn’t make the distinction.

As for hooking walleye under the mouth, we have this happen quite commonly with Jigging Raps, where the single tail hook will get them. Always assumed the fish were trying to pin the bait to the bottom, as others have said. The consistency in the location of the hook-up seems telling vs. unintentionally snagging fish around other parts of the body.

This happens to me alot on P3 and P4. Happened a bunch just this weekend. We were fishing blades a lot this weekend. You can argue that blades snag a lot of fish. 6 hooks, ripped up and down every few seconds. They DO snag alot of fish, and you would be right. Many times we would snag shad or suagers in the mid section. I always just toss these saguers back as I don’t feel they are attacking the bait.

However, when fishing blades, if you let your line fall on semi slack, a lot of the time after your blade hits the bottom you will feel a thunk when the fish “pinned” it to the bottom. This happened to me this weekend sometimes 2-3 seconds after I let the blade sit on the bottom. All these bites would yield a fish hooked under the jaw.

I am a believer in the pin theory.

BrianF wrote:

Pug, my understanding of the law is that catching a fish in MN with the hook on the outside of the mouth is legal, unless the angler is intentionally trying to snag the fish – then it’s illegal. So, if I catch a smallie on a jerkbait in the early spring with all the hooks on the outside of the mouth, that is a legal catch. Like with the walleye, you could say it was ‘snagged’, but not intentionally. Personally, I wouldn’t make the distinction.

Brian, I think you are correct here in what I have found. I was doing a little research after seeing Pug’s post. Minnesota and Wisconsin…different! And not just favorite sports teams.

This is all I could find in the Minnesota reg booklet regarding “snagging”…

What fishing methods are illegal?
• Intentionally fishing for a species during its closed season.
• Using an artificial light to lure, attract or spot fish. However, you may use a lighted
artificial lure. Batteries used in lighted fishing lures must not contain mercury.
• Leaving your fishing rod or any type of line with hooks attached unattended.
• Using explosives, firearms, chemicals (not including a scented bait), spring devices
or electricity to take fish.
• Taking fish by hand (noodling) or by snagging.

Wisconsin reg booklet…
IT IS ILLEGAL —
• to fish by snagging, foul-hooking, or attempting to hook fish other than in the mouth.
• to keep foul-hooked, snagged or any fish not hooked in the mouth.

Evan Pheneger wrote:

I am a believer in the pin theory.

Okay…I may be buying into this now. Sounds like it is a “river thing” though.

Walleyestudent Andy Cox wrote:

Okay…I may be buying into this now. Sounds like it is a “river thing” though.

I’ve had lake fish do this with jigging raps and some while snap jigging

Come on kids, I was joking.

now how do you get them to come by the lure?????

How about they just miss the sweet spot when they hit the lure or jig. Maybe their hitting the lure and one of the hooks gets imbedded outside the lower jaw, I’ve seen it happen in the upper jaw too, or outside the mouth and just about anywhere around the mouth area.

I think you can pretty much assume any fish hooked in the head when you aren’t literally trying to snag a fish, is not a snagged fish.

I see Wisconsin specifically says foul hooked. I always assumed a foul hooked fish is not legal to keep. I am not saying that if I was fishing for food and I foul hooked a fish I would not keep it.

My definition of foul hooked is a hook not in the immediate or general vicinity of the head.

Could it be over shooting when they strike?

start watching around 7:40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUZpkZni-sk

He says anything “gills forward”

Not just a river thing, happens on lakes too, just depends on the pattern and mood of fish.

Matt Ny wrote:

Could it be over shooting when they strike?

Maybe? Possibly something that is affecting their lateral line “sonar” that all fish use to sense prey or predators? Even in daylight.

Dusty Gesinger wrote:

Not just a river thing, happens on lakes too, just depends on the pattern and mood of fish.

Just when I thought I was convinced, now I am not so much. Been fishing lakes for a lifetime and not witnessed this occurrence. Now the merry-go-round has brought me back. Is this theory? Or has anyone actually have some video evidence of walleyes pinning bait fish to the bottom. Do bluegills or perch do this? How about catfish, they seem suspect of this since they lay on the bottom anyway. Now I am back to “this is true because some people say so” is not quite enough for me to buy in. Show me the money!!

Personally, I don’t really care. As long as someone doesn’t say I think it justifies a snagged a fish, it doesn’t really matter.

I just don’t see how understanding the behavior really has that much benefit. If they were doing it on any particular day, I can’t imagine I’d change anything at all.

biggill wrote:

I just don’t see how understanding the behavior really has that much benefit.

Well…okay? Seems though that we all collectively are trying to better understand fish behavior. So…? You’re saying that there is not much benefit in trying to understand fish behavior?

Bluegills, perch, even catfish you’re now reaching to to convince yourself of your own doubts.

Last thing I’ll say on the subject is there are plenty of old timers and some young fellers as well out there who fish just a handful of different ways their whole life on limited bodies of water who’d never experience this bc of those facts. Not saying you are one, but would seem silly for any of those people to start guessing as to fish behavior that very well could be going on without their knowing.

Walleyestudent Andy Cox wrote:

You’re saying that there is not much benefit in trying to understand fish behavior?

That’s correct. Not this one. I think sometimes people get too caught up in a single detail that doesn’t make much if any difference. It causes someone to ignore more significant details.
This is one of those that a guy just needs to let go.

If I don’t like the way they’re biting it I’ll change. If I can’t get an improvement I’ll go back to what works.

I always attack a walleye fishing trip in this order.

1. Check weather conditions and pick a wind blown structure or a weather favorable area.
2. Check the map and pick a bunch of likely locations and rank them mentally.
3. Get on the water and find fish on the sonar. If I’m not finding fish, find bottom changes. Transitions and weed edges.
4. Find bait. No food, no fish.
5. Start with search baits and use that time to further search for fish. Move up and down the structure. If I’m marking fish but no bites, I’ll change bait profiles until I find success.

If I don’t do this every time out, even to well known bodies of water, I don’t have success. If I catch a few hooked in the outside of the jaw, I’ll try to explain it in my head but if I’m catching fish, it’s tough to make a change. If I let it bother me I might as well go home.

I just think it is interesting behavior. Nothing more than that.

Two years ago, on New Years Eve, I went below a local dam to pitch some jigs. I proceeded to catch 5 walleyes in 5 casts, they thumped my jig, hard, and every one of them had the jig under it’s jaw. I know I didn’t snag them with my 1/8th ounce jig and ringworm. I’d be holding my jig, and then BAM, crank in, there the jig would be, securely in the bottom of the jaw. I don’t care, I know I am not snagging them. I have seen it plenty of times on the Mississippi too, fishing a bucktail jig vertically, holding it right off the bottom, get the tell tale tink, then when the fish gets in the net, the jig is under the tip of it’s jaw. One of life’s great mysteries, I guess.

nhamm wrote:

Last thing I’ll say on the subject is there are plenty of old timers and some young fellers as well out there who fish just a handful of different ways their whole life on limited bodies of water who’d never experience this bc of those facts. Not saying you are one, but would seem silly for any of those people to start guessing as to fish behavior that very well could be going on without their knowing.

Ah ha!! I have finally seen the light here. Thanks Nick, you have convinced me of something by using a different approach rather than continuing to claim this “occurrence”. I will announce that it is good many times to question or challenge something, otherwise the learning or info sharing stops. This here got me to look in the mirror…”there are plenty of old timers and some young fellers as well out there who fish just a handful of different ways their whole life on limited bodies of water.”
You nailed it there Nick. Yep, that does describe me and now I understand that because I have not seen or heard of it does not mean it doesn’t exist. I can’t see air, but I do believe it exists.
Biggill, what you said here is something I can’t always get around and it does cause me to sometimes keep myself in a box. “I think sometimes people get too caught up in a single detail that doesn’t make much if any difference. It causes someone to ignore more significant details.
This is one of those that a guy just needs to let go”.

Thanks guys…it’s never too late to teach an old dog new tricks.
Edit: Sorry, I accidentally posted my comment in bold. Was not my intent.

Steven Krapfl wrote:

Two years ago, on New Years Eve, I went below a local dam to pitch some jigs. I proceeded to catch 5 <strong class=”ido-tag-strong”>walleyes in 5 casts, they thumped my jig, hard, and every one of them had the jig under it’s jaw. I know I didn’t snag them with my 1/8th ounce jig and ringworm. I’d be holding my jig, and then BAM, crank in, there the jig would be, securely in the bottom of the jaw. I don’t care, I know I am not snagging them. I have seen it plenty of times on the Mississippi too, fishing a bucktail jig vertically, holding it right off the bottom, get the tell tale tink, then when the fish gets in the net, the jig is under the tip of it’s jaw. One of life’s great mysteries, I guess.

what if they are not pinning it to the bottom, but nipping at the head of the jig? this could cause a hook in the underside of the jaw…..

Jeez Andy. Don’t have to yell.

Details are very important except when they’re not.

Mike Martine wrote:

I’ve never really bought the theory of fish ” pinning ” the bait to the bottom , thus being hooked under the jaw . I’d love to see some underwater footage of this . I think these fish are laying on or near the bottom , facing into the current , boats drifting downstream jigging, on the upstroke they get hooked.

we’ve had days where we’ve caught 50-60 saugers, half of them hooked like this. if your theory were true we’d also hook them in the tail and belly. we never do. always under the chin.

we’ve seen evidence of other fish do this type of behavior. I think thats why people assume thats why saugers might exhibit the same behavior.

biggill wrote:

Jeez Andy. Don’t have to yell.

You should hear me when I’m all alone in a fish house…

biggill wrote:

Details are very important except when they’re not.

Best lesson I learned all year.

Fish face upstream. Your jig will move downstream and settle near the head of a resting fish. Details are very important except when they’re not.

Seth F wrote:

Fish face upstream. Your jig will move downstream and settle near the head of a resting fish. Details are very important except when they’re not.

Perhaps but I have had it happen while dragging jigs upstream.

Jonesy wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Seth F wrote:</div>
Fish face upstream. Your jig will move downstream and settle near the head of a resting fish. Details are very important except when they’re not.

Perhaps but I have had it happen while dragging jigs upstream.

And I catch plenty of walleye trolling against river current. Probably an over-generalization on seth’s part, fish do all sorts of stuff and aren’t quite that predictable in my experience.