FLW Dead Fish Penalties, your $.02

Jami thats exactly what happened to me but I was one of the last to weigh, I could have see giving me a 2 fish penalty but not 5. The bump judge told me he keeps the the hawg trough @67-68deg. and the bump tank is a little cooler. Overall the only thing I see they have to do is keep the tanks cooler on those hot days.
Corey you are correct this is the only place we have this problem, and I will be fizzing my fish from now on, that is the only thing I didnt do sat. oh ya just for you

At least one source of info on fizzing and mortality:
Ontario fizzing

Good Post Gary.

It sounds to me… even some of the fish that were fizzed still died???

Gary is right I have not seen sufficient data of fizzing fish and the effects. Now you are talking about putting a Needle in a possible cold fisherman’s hands that possibly can not feel his hands in waves on Mille Lacs that can be 4-6 footers, bending over in a live well to puncture a fish’s belly??? So it can be “alive”(read: Swimming upright) at weigh in????? only to be killed after it leaves the tank????? Big Picture?? I’m all for dong what is good for the fish, but as I understand these fish were not released and yet putting anglers at risk on a wavy lake with a needle that most are not used to handling for what again????? So the fish can be swimming upright on stage for show????? Safety for the fisherman ????? I guess I’m not getting it???

FLW needs to look at the big picture, like Gary said. They know they have issues at this lake last year and this tourney was 3 weeks later this year. Water temps are going to be worse this year compared to last with this issue. Perhaps have an extra staff or 2 to make sure and control these bump tank and trough temperatures. I’m not saying it is easy, but it is probably the biggest Fishing Tournament holders in the USA. Hawg trough @ 68 and Bump tank cooler yet???? If I remember right there was readings of 74-76 degrees on the Bump Tank, hat is over 10% high. Many of these fisherman put in a lot of time and money to this tourney. They brought in money cashing, healthy bags of fish to weigh as directed by the Tournament Director. Transferred their catch into tanks supplied, operated & controlled by the Tournament Holder and it sounds like to me that the tournament holder did not hold up or maintain their end of the bargain and people lost fish. The way it sounds this is not one angry fisherman, but a pretty good group of people. Something does not seem right to me. I personally have no claim in this as I did not fish, but for the FLW to penalize people that had lively, healthy fish, until they took it from an environment they controlled into another one that they did not have control of and did not meet specifications. It just doesn’t seem fair.

I hope FLW does not continue to ignore what seems like a problem “THEY ARE CASUING” and adjusts in the future to make sure they hold up their end of the bargain. I have to say I think the FLW has a great thing going and I love seeing the weekend angler like myself, being able to do “real” tournament settings, like this, but think they need to look at this more closely.

Just my $.02

I did not read all that article,but I read enough that it appears Fizzing helps short term but actually increases long term mortality of the fish and the both Ontario and Ohio discourages Fizzing. They also stated there is little room for error on properly Fizzing a fish. Thanks for the link.

perhaps you guys should try a paper tournament…

jk

No we didn’t fizz the fish. I have the needles but they looked good. I didn’t even thinkl to do that. Next time I will.

I guess I have mixed feelings over this issue. I think it is important, even during kill tournaments, that fish come to the scales in the healthiest condition possible. I have two main reasons for my feelings on this.

The first is we need to dispel the false public perception that tournament fisherman are a bunch of slobs who are out to anihilate all of the fish in our lakes. We are all ambassadors for our sport, and the public eye is fixed firmly on us when we’re out on a body of water fishing. It is my opinion that lively fish on stage go a long ways to help foster a positive public image of our sport. A bunch of dead fish floating around in the box up on stage just doesn’t look all that appealing. (We do live in the land of ten thousand liberals.) For me personally I take great pride in bringing in my fish as healthy as possible. I run my aerators on manual continuously all day, use Rejuvenade, and run the recycling pumps when in the harbor. I did also ice the livewell, but I had no idea that they would be dumping five gallon buckets full of ice right next to me in the holding tank. Someone made a comment “don’t they know about shrinkage?” I would have cooled my water temperature down even further had I known this earlier, and probably avoided my dead fish penalty.

Secondly, I feel that requiring fish to be releasable also discourages cheating. I’ve heard a lot of stories of tourney pros purposely killing fish just over 20″ during tournaments on Mille Lacs so they shrink up and are legal. These slobs have no business fishing, as they clearly have no respect for the fish or the other competitors in the tournaments. This won’t stop them, but at least they have to take a half-pound penalty like the rest of us.

As far as the temperature in the holding tanks and bump tanks is concerned, I’m not sure what can be done. My five fish were all swimming upright and kicking when I brought them out of my livewell (in fact we couldn’t catch the darn things without a net because they were going nuts), but they instantly went belly up when they hit the cold water in the holding tank. Then just when we had them worked back to life in the cold water, they hit the warmer water in the bump tank and went belly up again. The fish just can’t handle that type of shock to their systems. The bump judge was fair, so I’m not faulting any decision on FLW’s part. He really gave our one fish every opportunity to come around, but it just wouldn’t stay upright for more than a few seconds. The only surprising part is all of the fish I caught earlier in the day were just fine, but one of the fish we caught at 2:52 ended up being ruled unreleasable. I do think it was the stress of two rather significant water temperature changes within a few short minutes that ultimately lead to this.

One question I would like to pose to FLW is why does the bump tank have to be a separate tank from the main holding tank? Can’t they do this right on the end of the main holding tank, so the fish remain in a constant temperature environment? Also I would like to see FLW publish what temperatue they will try to maintain the holding tank at prior to the tournament, so we can try to maintain our livewells at a similar temperature. I think this would help.

I won’t comment on fizzing since I don’t know much about it. The couple of times I saw it done, the people fizzing them received dead fish penalties. They either didn’t do it correctly or it didn’t help that much. I can’t see how it’s good for the fish though. I think it’s a bad idea in a live release tournament if these fish end up dying later. That’s just my uninformed opinion however.

Thier is a lot of discusion going on about this subject. Is their anyone sending this forum to Sonny too see if they will respond? It would be a good idea to bring this subject up during the Bemidiji Rules meeting. I have been fishing these events for five years now and have allways repected the discision that Rick makes at the bumptank. I dont argue with him because he makes the right call. Now on the other hand if their is something that can be done to make it better for our fish to survive we need to talk with the right poeple and see what can be done to improve on the conditions of the weigh in process. Our imput is very valuable and well repected by the FLW staff.

From my expeiance from last year on milacs, I was not happy with the out come for one reason. All my fish were properally cared for and were in perfect health. I feel all 5 fish would have swam away if I was to release them. I had to scramble around the livewell to catch them. When I got to the bumb tank all 5 went belly up . I felt the water and it was at least 10 deg. warmer than the lake. I did make a few comments to kevin and rick who seem to do an awsome job and did my fair share of complaining. I was maybe the 20th boat in and for the other half of the field they were to say the least very easy going on the dead fish penalty. I know of guy’s that went through the line after I did saying they should have got at least 1 dead fish but they got 0. So My complaint from last year was all were not treated equal. I will accept dead fish penalty as I have in the past but it needs to be fair. My fish were not fizzed and I dont believe for a min. that it would have mattered. I know this is about this year but I saw my name mentioned a few times so I thought you should get it straight from the horses mouth.

I just caught this thread today so……

Near as I can tell from all of the opin’s/comments…..is that the tank temps are to blame. That said….a five degree or so temp change, up or down, will NOT kill healthy fish. 20 degree…YES. Not the temp changes you guys are stating were at this scenario. My lake surface temps on Mille Lacs Saturday were in the low 70 range at weigh-in time. Did they have 50ish water temps in the tanks? Or high 80’s? I doubt it.

Bottom line…if the fish are fizzed correctly, immediately after being caught and placed in a livewell(that is running full bore ALL the time(not on a timer), hooks cut off if not in the fishes jaws, no matter the time of year and water temps, and the livewell overflow is plugged for the rides between spots and to the weigh-in, they will be just fine at the “bump tank”.

Do we need a fizzing seminar at/before your events? Let me know!

Proof is history. Several PWT veterans(me included) have only a handful of dead fish penalities in 18 years in the record books!! And those after 30-50 mile boat rides in huge waves—before livewells were what they are today.

Do all the boats having trouble have freshwater pick-ups for traveling?

Rarely is it anyones fault but the angler himself if there is a penalty issued of any kind. The key is to learn the game your in before it starts. DON’T BEAT YOURSELF.

Fizzing fish has been around for at least 15 years and preached by the top tours. NEVER has a DNR said to NOT fizz fish in release events. Anywhere. Shallow caught or deep caught…FIZZ the fish correctly and you get your optimum weight.

Like I said before this subject needs to be brought up at the rules meeting to be discused. The information needs to get out so people are informed. I stand by the FLW’s judgment. Coming on here and saying we need to be schooled on how to keep a fish alive is really childish Steve. I have heard the stories of Pro’s claiming their fish are allways alive. I have been to a fair share of weighin’s and seen those so called live fish. Statistics dont lie.

Lip, whether you believe in fizzing or not, a fish that can not “right” itself is dead for sure. Release them and they will be on the surface in no time. A fish that is fizzed a little and can swim back down to the bottom at least has a good chance to live.

I called the MNDNR to see if they had any scientific data in regards to “fizzing”.

In voicemail “tag”, I was able to collect some information from voicemail message. I spoke with “Al Stevens”. While we were not actually to converse on this subject yet and only he only left me a voicemail message, here is what he stated in regards to “fizzing”:
Currently, the MN DNR has a proposal to ban fizzing in tournaments. The proposal has not been made into law as of yet. The ban of fizzing would not be applied to recreational anglers, only tournament anlgers.

I will not be able to get in contact with Al Stevens again till after July 16th. In his final message to me, he stated he was going to be out of the office until that day.

The reason this popped up and I dug into it was due to the Canadian report posted above that held differnt states stance on the subject of fizzing.

Once I hear back from him, I’ll post more information.

It seems “Al Stevens”, while being a voice for the MN. DNR might have things backwards per what we’ve been told by the DNR in recent years about fizzing.

They have NOT told the tourney guys to NOT fizz….but do NOT recommend the recrecational anglers to fizz fish as they most likely will do it wrong more times than not and therefore potentially kill more fish in the process.

I will have a to date position from the MN. DNR Fisheries head on it personally in the next day or so to see if there is a change in the DNR thinking in this regard. (remember…fizzing came to us FROM DNR biologists!)

The fact is….without fizzing fish…the live-release ratio of fish at tourney weigh-ins will go WAAAAYY down if fizzing is dis-allowed.

“Rigging guy”…I come on here and am outspoken…no doubt. But I speak from experience second to none on the postings I reply to. I make every attempt to base my info on facts that are hard to dispute. If I am wrong…I will be the first to admit it…no doubt!

But if you’re gonna take a shot at me and what I say publicly, (which is fine), do it upfront…not behind some name and profile that has zero info regarding who you are and therefore not offering some insight as to if you have a basis for making a judgement/opinion on the subject.

With good intent, as veteran walleye tourney anglers from the highest levels, Scott and myself feel we could help out for the next time anyone has some “live-release” issues at a weigh-in and how you could avoid them and any questions relative to the subject. Maybe make you some more prize money in the end next time.

From now on…based on all the flack I’ve taken in the past few days about my posts via emails etc., as most veteran Pro Anglers have done in the past, I guess I will really think hard before I offer any help/advice or potential positive info on any message boards. But as usual…if and when I do, I will stand behind my postings with the REAL me…not some name/profile that could be “rigged”.

Steve,
If you read your post again you will see why your post can or could offend someone. My name is John Gildersleeve and I do not hide from anyone. I have fished my fair share of Tourney’s. I do have a idea on what goes on out their. I do get mad when guy’s talk down to us angler’s that cannot afford to fish the PWT or FLW. Since you did not fish the FLW League Tournament you do not know what these guy’s went through. The discusion should be made at the next rules meeting so both the FLW and the Angler’s can air things out. Frustration with dead fish is allways hard to deal with especially when your talking a few ounces for a check. If the answer was so easy to come up with to keep the fish alive do you think for a second that the U of M would be doing a ongoing study on the subject to help the DNR come closer to a system to help keep the fish alive? Their infoirmation along with the angler’s help will tell you what is going on. To sit back on the sidelines and say you will have too school us is upsetting as you have found out.
2005 Minnesota FLW League Angler of the Year!
John Gildersleeve

Steve,

I think the point John is trying to make is that the anglers fishing these events are very professional and do actually know a thing or two about caring for fish. Your post comes across as a bit condescending and mightier-than-though. John is a past points champion for the league events, so he’s definately an accomplished and respected angler. That being said, I know the feeling of misconstrued posts lately, and I’m sure your intentions were good. I do find it hard to believe though that every fish you have ever caught was released to swim off happily ever after. Hooking mortality is a fact of fishing, especially with those who like to rig or cork. It’s not right or wrong, just something we all need to be more aware of. This last tournament was the first time I’ve received a dead-fish penalty in my rather short tournament fishing career, and I do take pride in that. Did all of the fish I caught in other tournaments live to make it another day? I hope so, but it’s probably not likely. I do try my best though.

I would like to know more about those who use the Oxygenator, and whether it truly works. I asked the DNR guys at the docks if they felt Rejuvenade works when they were taking oxygen and temperature measurements in my livewell, and they indicated that they felt it doesn’t help much, if at all. That response really surprised me considering that FLW really markets this stuff. I will continue using it, since it doesn’t seem to hurt them. I would like to explore other options for keeping fish healthy, so any comments Steve or any others have on the Oxygenator would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

How many guys had dead fish at Bemidji? We only had 4 fish to weigh one did not make it almost right away because it was gut hooked but the other three went belly up in the bump tank

We worked our fish really hard… and ended up with 1 dead fish penalty. Honestly, we had a few that kept going belly up.. but they were fighting to stay down… so they seem to give them to us.

0 dead fish at Bemidji. The Oxygenator works great, I know I will have one when I am a boater.

We lost one fish and took the hit of half pound, we fizzed our fish and all were looking pretty healthy but out of all five a smaller one took the belly up position. Would have thought the 27 plus incher would have bellied since it was with us from a half hour into the tourney thru the entire day..

We had 3 of the 5 , they where alive but took a beating coming accross the lake, we had the Oxygenater and the DNR said my liveweel had the highest DO he tested I think it 7.4 if that sounds right. Our 2 fish that did not get bounced around where perfect.

Does anyone here use “Snap Weights” on there fish?

I fizzed all my fish and had one die. That particular fish dies 5 minutes after it was caught. It was weird no bad hooking or anything it just died. Another fish did the same. I think they were from the same school of fish. I chated with the dnr for awhile trying to get answer’s and they think that the particular school of fish might have come from real deep water and were on their way up to feed when I caught it.

Anyone else using an Oxygenator have poor DO readings? My DO readings were only 4.8, which is not good at all. I had my pumps running all day so I’m still scratching my head a bit. How do I know if the darn thing is working, other than trusting that the LED indicates it is working?

Funny thing is I know of one guy who had DO readings of 1.2 and his fish were all deemed releasable.

Kirt, I tried using snap weights on one of my fish, the snaps kept popping off, so I grabbed a couple of ounce jig heads, since I didn’t have the ice fishing weights in the boat, or atleast I couldn’t find them…..

Jami

Quote:

---

Kirt, I tried using snap weights on one of my fish, the snaps kept popping off, so I grabbed a couple of ounce jig heads, since I didn’t have the ice fishing weights in the boat, or atleast I couldn’t find them…..

---

I was going to make a run to Gander for ice fishing weights on Fri night, but the IDA GTG got in the way.

I only had a few snap weights (the red snaps work fine, the black ones are crap) so I made some other balance weights using a cross lock snap and a 1 oz bell sinker. Open the snap on both ends, put the sinker on the small end and close it, and then put the other (open) end of the snap through the tough tissue in the pectoral fin, right near where the fin joins the body. If you go too far down the fin, the tissue is too fine and the snap will just rip through it. I balance weighted all of my fish, I didn’t fizz anybody.

Worked great for me, all of my under 20s were happily swimming in the bump tank, even one that was hooked deep and just had the line cut. My floaters were a 23 and a 20.5, both of which were total sissies and croaked within 20 minutes of hitting my livewell. I filled the well first thing in the morning when surface temps were 66. I threw 10 lb blocks of ice into the well, one after another, during the day as one would melt. I ran the livewell pump for one minute every 5 minutes. And I had an oxygenator going.

The DNR guy who checked me said I had the best temp he had seen so far (60) and had a DO measurement of 5.2. He said that the DO was reasonable, and the thing that helped me more than anything was the low temp.

I had a DO Reading of 7, and a temp of 65. 4 fish deemed “Unreleasable.”

My DO was 5.7 and temp was 67. I had 5 good fish, After finding good fish the weekend befor we worked most of the week putting fish in the box and making sure we could keep them alive.
The 3 other guys I work with and myself all had non-releasable fish at mille lacs and we had 20 good fish at bimidji. 3 boats had oxagenators and 1 did not, so I dont know if they helped. The key was to fizz them, also if they where fizzed properly we did need any weights on them.