FLW Dead Fish Penalties, your $.02

If any of you fished the FLW League event on Mille Lacs this last weekend, I would like your opinions on how this was handled. This deal is sticking in my throat like a fish bone. I did not have a weight that would do me any good in the points or the money, but I got docked 8 ounces for a fish that was swimming around great in my livewell. I know MANY people who had money and points on the line were bumped out of position due to the “Dead Fish Penalty.”

1. Fish were to be killed after the tournament with the exception of the fish used in the warm water study. Am I correct? So why did they have to be “Alive” by the bump tank guys standards?

2. The DNR/U of M guys were telling the guy at the bump tank that his water was getting too warm. So, we were taking the fish out of ambient lake water temp, where they have been all day, putting them in a tank of ice water, and then into a 74 degree bump tank.

3. Some guys did not get dead weight penalties for fish that were in the same condition as mine and others.

4. The DNR/U of M guys were checking O2 readings and temps, and I heard a number of “Good Jobs!” and “Your fish look great!” only to get to the tanks, and get a DFP.

5. I know of one angler who got docked 2 pounds for dead fish, only to have Sonny tell him on stage “Your fish look healthy, great job!” This basket would have landed him in 5th place. But he ended up in the 20’s because of it.

My issue with this is that the FLW is going to force anglers into fizzing fish to keep them alive for the tournament. They have not come out with their support or criticism of doing so. I think that this “Live Fish” deal was for picture purposes only. Fish were being given away left and right “Behind the curtain” even if they were fully alive. I know of one angler that got no DFP, and they took his fish and gave them away!

Did this affect any of you guys/gals as well? Am I wrong to be a little purturbed by this? What will happen at Bemidgi?

My intent is not to start a feud with the FLW at all! Maybe I am misinterpreting the rules? Can someone set me straight?

I also am a little steamed … Alive fish in the livewell then to be instently dead all 4 of my fish were counted dead…? I am more disapointed on not keeping one of the 16 3/4 i kept letting go, but if i think of it that would have been counted dead to… I to don’t want to get on the bad side of FLW that is why i kept my composure on stage even though in the back of my mind 7 14 was going to be a big deduction comming 4 14 OUCH … I just think they should have looked in our live wells before going up to the tank like July on the river last year… I hope they do this on Bemidji…? I am taking this as a big learning experiance and i hope the FLW does to and now i know what to do in the future… Also did you know Chad had a dead fish penalty. Happend to be the fish he caught 10 minutes before weigh in??? Something was not right in that tank… I was also a test dummy for the DNR study i wonder how that turned out???

Dusty Minke

When your fish get to the bump take they must be alive and releaseable. Whether it is a kill tournament or not usually. That means they must not belly up in the bump take and must show signs that they are able to swim upright for a few seconds. They use the same standards for everyone.

Having lively fish in your livewell is only 1/2 the battle. They get stressed out when you change water temps on them several times in a few minutes. I continually work my fish making sure they stay upright while I wait to weigh. Keeping your fish swimming upright is the best thing you can do. Once they go belly up, they are pretty much done and will not be deemed releasable. They do not have to be dead to get a penalty. If they can’t swim upright on there own, they are as good as dead.

I know it is a judgement call but the FLW does a very good job at determining which fish are releasable. Make sure fizz them. A lively fish that can’t swim upright is as good as a dead fish. And yes, it will be the same at all FLW events. Their standards for deciding which fish are releasable are the same everywhere.

Scott, that is my point. If you have lively fish in your livewell, and they belly up in the tank…What is the root cause of the issue?

I would think planning for the lowest common denominator would be the best. Keep the tanks ambient to current lake surface temps as they are in the livewells. Increase the O2 in the tanks, and hope for the best?

When the MTT does their weigh in, they come right from the livewell and to the bump tank. It appears to me those fish are a lot healthier than the current FLW system.

And maybe these tests by the U of M will bring out the best practice. Like I said, I am not trying to start a war or argument here. I too had a thermo-sensor in my boat. I hope they share the readings with everyone.

Not to get off topic, but could you please describe exactly how & when to fizz fish. Thanks.

On Bemidji they should be able to pump directly out of the lake to keep the fish in lake temp waters. I think a walleye is about as fragile as shiner minnows. If you change the water temps to fast they are instantly belly up. If that is happening that sure sounds like a poor system on the part of FLW.

I was one of the guy’s this happened to last year. Fish looked good in the live well, put them in the bump tank and two went belly up! So…. this year I made the decision to fizz them immediately. Three of my fish were caught before 8:30. And they were happy with their belly’s to the bottom all day.
Brady

I hear you Tuck, I was wondering the same thing and that was why I asked my question yesterday under Mr. Halfens tourney post. It sounded like from the people I talked to the Bump Tank temperature was warmer and even fish that were fizzed hit the bump tank and went belly up. I also thought I remember reading about fizzing fish and the long term condition of these fish were not exactly known??? If fizzing harmed them or not, was yet to be determined??? Good Post.

No Beef with FLW her either, as I have never been in a event. However, it sounds like they need to have better quality control of their weigh in system and environment they are running, because it sounds like the best fisherman still won at Mille Lacs (Congrats Chad By the Way ), but 2nd – 80th was not so accurately determined in my mind. Perhaps FLW will get some data back from the U, and hopefully they can make adjustments to their system for the future.

Just my $.02

Tuck,

Agree. I was under the impression the tourney was a kill event. We were told to help ourselves to the fish after weigh in. (Make them go away….nod, nod, wink, wink….) I was surprised they were enforcing the DF penalty. Although everyone made the attempt to keep their fish alive, I think we all expected to maintain possession of our fish after weigh in.

We were first flight, first 15 – 20 teams to go through the bump tank. Right away we were like “Wow! Water here is warm.” All three of our fish went belly up as soon as they hit the tank.

I think the DNR study results will show “most” fish survive the day well in “most” of the livewells out there today. But on hot sunny summer days, fish are going teats up being transferred from the boat to the tanks and back.

Hindsight is 20/20. I believe every boat had a visit from the DNR as they pulled into the docks. The DNR should have assessed the DF penalty. In other words we should have been given some sort of identifier at the boat that indicated how many fish were alive or dead. Then just bring up the fish skipping the entire bump process which we all know now as futile attempt to keep these fish alive.

I would be interested to know if the DNR tourney permit for this event was a C&R permit or a Kill permit. My understanding from the DNR is that it was a kill permit. So, no fish should have been returned to the lake. No matter if they survived or not.

-J.

Whether the tournament is a kill tournament or not, you have to bring your fish in alive. The FLW does an excellent job of making sure fish are alive and releasable. They change the water in the holding tank that is oxygenated routinely and cool it as needed. They monitor the oxygen level in that tank as well as temperature.

The DNR does not decide if a fish is releasable or not because they are not running the tournament and are not in charge of it.

If you fizz your fish and keep them cool you should not have a problem.

Nothing goes on behind the scenes. If fish die, they are there for the taking for people that want to eat them. If it is a kill tournament the fish are either given back to you or donated.

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I was one of the guy’s this happened to last year. Fish looked good in the live well, put them in the bump tank and two went belly up! So…. this year I made the decision to fizz them immediately. Three of my fish were caught before 8:30. And they were happy with their belly’s to the bottom all day.
Brady

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That is my point exactly. Fizz them and keep them cool and they will not stress out. This happens every year on Mille Lacs once the water warms up.

This was my first FLW event and I went into thinking it would be a live tournament. I guess in my mind the two have always gone together. Early in the day my boater warned me that he was having a hard time keeping fish alive and that we would probably be getting a penalty. This also played a big part in our strategy. From what I got out of it the plan was to pick up a slot or two and make sure the fish were in spot 1. Then go look for a over fish and come back to spot 1 and get our slots so they would be in better shape. When we got in our fish looked pretty tough. We got them in the bump tank and really worked them. Right away I thought we may lose 3 fish, but by the time we made it thru the line I thought they all could have been considered alive. I watched the judge work with all of them and in the end I guess he penalized us for 2 fish. I guess the bump tank actually worked in our favor.

The part I really don’t get is from the bags the fish are dumped out of the bag into a basket where they are taken out of the water. Then they go in a tank and the work begins of getting them going again. After they are all in good shape, we pull the basket back out of the water and put it in a different tank where they are finally looked at. I think it would have been a better idea to make the official decision at the end of the first tank.

The rules were the same for everyone, so I am not complaining either. I just would like to throw my highly valuable $.03 out there so they can take a look at it in the future. Apparently something was not right because some very good fisherman looked disappoined up there on stage when they saw that they had dead fish.

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Not to get off topic, but could you please describe exactly how & when to fizz fish. Thanks.

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Fizz them anytime they are not swimming around at the bottom of the livewell. Fish that keep coming to the surface are not going to do well at the end of the day.

To fizz them, turn them over underwater and insert a needle 3 scales over and 3 up from there butt hole. Angle the needle slighly forward and insert it slowly until you get air bubbles coming out the end. I like to take about 3/4 of the air out of them until there belly is nice and soft. Turn them back over and work them so they swim and they should be good to go. They are much happy after they are fizzed.

Becareful in cold water you don’t want to take all the air out of them or they will “stick” to the bottom and die. It rarely happens but I have seen it twice. There belly will be concave when this happens.

If you catch fish in cold water and it is shallow, rarely do they need to be fizzed.

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The DNR does not decide if a fish is releasable or not because they are not running the tournament and are not in charge of it.

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I should have said a tourney official working with the DNR. As every livewell was inspected as we came to the docks. Like I said, 20/20. Just an idea.

-J.

It sounds to me that the FLW needs to make sure the bump tank temp is similar to the lake temp. You can do everything right in your livewell and fizz the fish, etc but if the bump tank temp is too different the fish will not do well. From the comments I read earlier in the thread about the DNR telling the FLW folks that the bump tank temp was too warm it seems like the FLW didn’t hold up its end of the deal. Just my .02.

We got docked on a belly up fish as well and as mentioned above the fish was fine in livewell got to bump tank and working with our fish to keep them upright was good for a moment or two then they dumped ice right next to our holding box and we had to work every fish to keep them upright from there on. Chad made mention to the guy at the inspection table that the water temps of the bump tank was not even close to the livewell temps or lake temps since Chad never shut off the livewell pumps. The guy literally flipped out on us and got a bit aggitated on being questioned about the temp differences. We used rejuvinate throughout the entire day in the livewell and our fish were strong and spunky til the bump tank. The FLW is doing a great job but there seems to be an issue here with this last tournament revolving around the bump tanks water temps and upkeep. Too many people having the same problems in the same area of the event.

I didn’t even fish this event but but if this many guys are saying that there was something wrong with the temp in the bump tank and a buddy of mine fished it also and got a penalty for the same deal there has to have been something wrong with the tank. MY 2 Cents.

I do have to say that last year the Tank saved me and my fishes lives when my boat broke down… They let me put the fish in the tank and after working them and getting them used to water they were fine & i did not fizz them at all, they stayed fine until weigh in 4 hours worth… Then the day proceded to get warm and calm resulting in the same thing more dead fish for the other contestants… I have seen both ends of the tank good and bad and i will take this and learn from it… on a calm hot day kill tourney… they should look in your live well, because if a fish is dead in my livewell i will take full responsability same with the tank on a live release weigh in… more cents worth

Well put Dusty on the checking your livewell when you get to the docks. Last year at the 2 day FLW event Stickboy and I fished together and he had me working the fish as we entered the colville marina and they were nice and healthy in there on that warm day with no ice added but I do remember as soon as they were moved to another enviorment it was a totally different ball game with the warm temps we had. Dock checks might be an idea for them in the near future, but i also understand there point of view for it looks better with the water weigh ins but sometimes it is just how it is gonna be fish will die when removed from there enviorment to another extreme.

I have been getting a lot of PM’s from people wondering what needle I use to fizz a fish. I use the same needle the nurse uses when she gives you a shot, accept a little bigger usually. You can get them at a pharmacy or at any store that carries vet supplies (like Mills Fleet Farm).

For larger fish you will need a longer needle. Make sure they are at least 2 inches long. The biggest thing, is make sure your needle is not clogged before you fizz them It happens.

I was in the first flight, in the bump tank at the same time as Jon/Jim and my fish went belly up as soon as they hit the tank.

The dnr guy came to my boat, checked my depleted oxygen level which was at 6.8, he said anything over 5 was good, and that I had 5 healthy looking fish. I ran my pumps all day long, adding ice until I ran out. I did not fizz my fish.

As I’m trying to keep the fish right side up in the bump tank, a younger U of M kid took the temp of the tank right next to me, 74.8 degrees. As I get to the weigh master, the kid tells the weigh master that the tank is getting warm already…. Warm, thats 5 degrees warmer that my livewell temp when I filled the bag and transferred the fish from. No wonder the fish went belly up.

So after being assessed 4 dead fish, I’m not happy. I make that known to the weigh master, but didn’t say anything on stage, until after Sonny was done, and I’m grabbing the bin out of the weigh scale. I mention to Sonny that he should check the temp of the bump tank, its getting warm, and that I was docked 2 lbs for dead fish which I feel is unfair when I worked to keep this fish alive all day and if the bump tank is causing this, I shouldn’t be penalized for it. Same thing happened last year, ask Stickboy. He raised a stink and ice was added and those of us who weighed later, were fine and benefited from it, the water in the bump tank was much cooler.

Was ice added to the bump tank later?

Now I’m all for keeping the dead fish penalty. We as anglers have the responsibility to catch and keep these fish as healthy as we can. But if the bump tank isn’t regulated properly, why should that fall onto our shoulders?

Scott/Ted, having never fished a tour event, do they keep a closer eye on the bump tank for the tour, adding ice or maintaining a certain water temp for those events?

I’m wondering why they don’t have a chiller hooked up to the bump tank to keep the water temp at a certain level. This past weekend I was reading around 70 for surface temp on the lake, so if they hooked up a chiller and a pump, they could keep the bump tank at a temperature they deemed appropriate for each event. Easy to do.

Granted I’m still bitter, my weight went from 9-08 to 7-08, which took me from a tie from 5th (a good payday) to 23rd and from 2nd or 3rd in overall points to 8th.

What did I learn from all of this? I will be fizzing my fish as soon as they are placed in the box. I’m looking at adding an oxgenator to my live well, and I’ll be carrying a much larger cooler, with ice to place in the livewell throughout the day.

All in all, I can’t over look the positives. It was a great day of fishing. I had a great co and we were able to put 6 of the best slots I’ve had on that lake in the boat. We never got the piggy we were looking for, but all prayers aren’t always answered.

I can’t forget to be thankful that I’m able to fish as much as I do, and be able to take advantage of these opportunities.

I’m off my soap box…..

Jami

I was in the 2nd flight. I was tagged with 3 dead fish penalties. 2 were probably legit as we were struggling to keep our earliest slots happy. The third happened after I left my boat and before I got bumped.

The DNR checked my well also….7.2 on the DO monitor.

As I was coming to the end of the hawg trough, the bump judge came over and read the temp in the trough. He then told me to wait a minute….he grabbed some ice and added it to the bump tank. A couple minutes and another temp check later, he waved me to the bump tank. So he was trying to keep the temp in his tank similar to the temp in the trough.

I would really like to see in-boat bumping for these warm water events. It worked great for the July pool 4 event last year. If we do our parts to keep the fish happy while fishing, FLW should do its part to not penalize us for things (like temp or O2 in the tank/trough) that are out of our control.

boy am I gonna get hammered for this but read all of my post before getting ruffled.

Scott is trying to prove to you guys a point,maybe why he stressed it 3 times.
The issue here isnt the flws flaws in cooling the bump tanks and guys they will never go to in boat inspections unless they add 10 more staff members,the issue here is mille lacs fish are weak in warm water,this is the only lake we have this problem consistantly on year after year.the issue is fizzing your fish!!!I had a limit by 10 am including 4 before 8:30,when I fizzed them my co-angler was in utter disbelief at how much air was in them and I never pulled a fish that I kept in deeper than 19 ft of water!I also used re-juvinate and went through 20lbs of ice,adding every 30 mins but lets be real,the water your filling your livewell with is surface temp(72-degrees)without sending them into shock you cant cool it dramatically,just stop it from skyrocketing up.to prove my point I would bet that if you started a post about how many fish were or werent lost due to fizzing when they were caught, not 4 hrs later you would see the staggering point Im trying to make and scott and some others here.no the bump tanks did not help any but I personally know of 23 fish that were fizzed with only 1 lost and thats because it had already been in the livewell for 4 hrs.

be gentle on me guys,I probably didnt change anybodys minds
but would be interested to know how many fizzed fish were lost?

2 of my fish were Fizzed and they were lost… I have never got a dead fish penelty in my life… They checked our live wells at Red Wing Last year…? I also think the boys that work at the flw are the best in the buisness i wouldnt want anyone else incharge of my fish…

Dusty on day 2 they checked our livewells and I believe day 1 as well. We had to go to the dock before beaching the boat to head into weigh ins but I can not remember for sure on day 1.

Our fish were swiming on the bottom of the live well. Like Jon stated above, when the fish were put into their tanks is when they went belly up. We woked the fish the whole time we were in the tank, holding them up right and moving them back and forth.

jim
did you fizz and were you docked for dead fish,I dont remember?I,m not saying the tanks werent warm,I got docked last year at myr mar and it cost me a check(not fizzed)Im just curious who lost fizzed fish and who didnt?

erick,on day 1 at red wing we pulled up to the dock and rick checked there,than you trailered out and pulled over to the bump tanks,colville park had the facilities to do that Im not sure all parks will,it would be tough at the bemidji park,not impossible to do but tough

guys I have been one of those that lost fish on millelacs before and the fizzing seems to work for me in several different environments(from deep water to warm water)to save fish,at least long enough to get through bump lines,and yes millelacs was a kill permit,no fish were returned to the water.

I have waited along time to reply to this post and all I can say is it sounds like the FLW was fair across the board on penaltys
. We weighed early and recieved a penalty on our our big fish on our three slots were good I think we had a advantage being first flight. All I think we learned as anglers and hopefully the FLW as directers that under these circumstances HOT/ LONG WEIGH INS/ etc that we want want the deserving teams to get the prize. I know when I go to BEDMIJI. I will be awhole lot smarter on what can happen and will try to compensate. We can honestly say we have all had learning experiance on both sides and lets all learn and do better

Joe, we were right after you. Very nice kicker fish. I went to the tank thinking we had 3 dead fish and we actually got them all going again. We still got penalized for two, but they all looked a lot better after being in the bump tank for awhile. Something must have changed after we weighed.

So;
If the walleyes are that fragile, and the “seasoned” tourney guys are aware of it, I would “assume” that the FLW is just as well aware of this too?

With that said, IMHO the responsibility lays on the FLW to ensure their bump tanks are NOT going to put the fish into temperature shock.

We are not talking a “mom-pop” tourney operation here. This is the FLW.

I wasn’t there. I’m only responding to what I’ve read here and also personal discussions I’ve had some of the tourney anglers who were there.

It doesn’t matter if the fish are “fragile” or not.

If they are, then the responsiblity lays on the FLW to ensure the tourney is operated/regulated in a manner that won’t kill the fish.

If an anlger has to perform “fizzing” on the fish to keep them alive (and it appears that not all fizzed fish lived), then you better stand back and take a look at the big picture here. Not every angler is educated on fizzing and I’ve yet to read any scientific study that shows the positive/negative effects of what the fizzing does to the fish.

The only true information I’ve read on fizzing has been on muskies………It wasn’t positive and it is HIGHLY recommened to NOT do it.

Last question on this:
If it is a kill tourney, why penalize a guy whose fish is breathing but belly up?