No Keepers!!!

  • kooty
    Keymaster
    1 hour 15 mins to the Pond
    Posts: 18101
    #1327425

    As you’ve read in my other posts, fished pretty diligently on Saturday and never saw a keeper fish come to the boat. I’m not sure I saw a legitimate keeper caught all day(14-16″). I know prior to X-mas the fish were really snapping and I’m sure many went home for table fair. I took enough for a meal…

    I’m basing my numbers strictly on guessing, but do you think we could have wiped out a particular year class in those three to six weeks?? I’m sure I caught and released at least 60 fish in my three trips last year. So if my assumption is correct, I’m assuming in the same time frame I made 3 trips to the river, others made as many or more. I’m going to assume worse case scenario, which is take a limit each trip. That would mean I took 18 fish for myself, 18 for the others in the boat with me. I’m also assuming everyone ate all the fish between trips so as not to go over possession limits. That’s a total of 36 fish times 50 boats equals 1800 fish in a three weekend stint.

    As you know, I’m new to the area so tell me if I’m way off base, but how hard would it be to take a whole year class of fish out of the river. How many thousands of those 16″ saugers are in the river??

    Dean Marshall
    Chippewa Falls WI /Ramsey MN
    Posts: 5854
    #236426

    This may be a futile attempt at an explanation, but if nothing else, it will create some good, (if not animated responses). I had the benefit of working with the DNR fisheries biologists in Lake City for 2 1/2 years. And the pleasure of hearing fishermen’s/women’s comments during my 2 year creel survey on pool 4. I am assuming you’re talking about pool 4 waterfowler. This post is about pool 4 anyway.

    Some biologists down there have said that hook and line fisherman can virtually not damage the walleye/sauger fishery we have on pool 4 (with the current pressure it has). The strength of a year class is solely dependent on the conditions of the river at the time of the spawn. Particularily water temp and water level. What this means is that we may have 1 million walleye (numbers out of the air) spawning during poor conditions…….low water or vastly fluctuation water temps while the eggs are in the water……..and have a terrible spawn which leads to a terrible year class. On the other hand, we may only have 10,000 walleye spawning another year and have excellent river conditions and end up with a great year class.

    Don’t get me wrong, it’s not that simple. There is a ton of management that goes into all of this, but in a nutshell, that is the jist of it, conditions during spawn AND habitat of course! I’m assuming the comment that anglers can’t hurt the fishery out here is taking into consideration the current rate of catch and release, current angler pressure and current bag limits. There’s no doubt that catch and release is a great thing for the river and everywhere else for that matter!

    Another point to be made is that not all of the fish in pool 4 are at or even near the dam right now. Only a SMALL percentage of the fish are there. I know from doing the creel surveys, that there are fish all over lake pepin right now!

    I know that when you see 14 million boats at the dam day in and day out, that you think…..”Man this can’t keep going on”, but remember that that is only a small percentage of the fish in pool 4.

    I know that I can’t explain the science of the pool 4 fishery in a FTR post, but this is just a VERY SMALL bit of information for thought. Lets hear others opinions.

    So to answer your question waterfowler…..no I don’t think that 16-18 in. year class of sauger is gone. Thinned out some…..ya, but gone…..no.

    Oh ya, one other thing. Lake Pepin is a walleye/Sauger factory! If the other pools had a Lake Pepin in them, they would be just as good, given time. (In my opinion!)

    This is getting long, so lets hear others’ comments/remarks.

    oldranger
    Posts: 70
    #236431

    Thanks for the post steve. I had the same question years ago and I asked a DNR bioligest. She stated that the mississippi is a fish factory and because of some ristrictions and monitoring it will even be better. She went on to say that the high water in the spring did us well, because the temp was right and slow run off.She mentioned that no commercial or spear fishing is allowed as in some lakes so it should be great,but she added that they still call it fishing not catching !!!!!!!!

    boone
    Woodbury, MN
    Posts: 935
    #236435

    Steve,

    You raise some good points. I recently read an article in the South Dakota Conservation Digest entitled, “Why Not Close the Walleye Season During the Spring” that discussed the implications of walleye harvest during February, March, and April. Basically the take-home message was, that on the Missouri river reservoir system out there, that the percentage of the total harvest during these three months was very small compared to the harvest during May, June, and July. The article also showed that number of walleyes produced during the spring is not strongly correlated to the number of walleyes over16 or 18 inches long. As you stated, it has more to do with the temperature and water conditions as the eggs and fry mature. So basically this says that you don’t need a lot of mature walleyes to produce a good year class.

    But it seems hard for me to believe that sport anglers virtually cannot damage the fishery. I suppose one needs to define “damage”. Can anglers remove enough fish to reduce catch rates? That’s how I might define damage. Or is the catch rate largely dependent on the amount of bait fish available. For example, during the summer of 2000 on Pool 3 I had walleye catch rates about half of what I had in recent previous years. I attributed the slow summer to the amount of bait fish available. Huge schools of minnows seemed to be all over. The summer of 2001 was more typical and I had a good year and didn’t see nearly as many schools of minnows.

    On Pool 3 last year I released well over 100 legal walleyes. Lets just use100 for a round number and lets assume 30 other anglers released that many on Pool 3. That’s 3000 walleyes or about 100 walleyes per mile if you figure Pool 3 is about 30 miles long. That seems to be a lot of walleyes to me.

    Has anybody heard how the population and catch rates on Pool 2, a total catch-and-release pool, compare to some other pools? It seems that this might be the best way to determine the effects of angler harvest. That assumes of course that not many walleyes are migrated into or out of Pool 2.

    Boone

    swany
    Southeastern Minnesota.
    Posts: 221
    #236442

    Hougie, seems to me that you have all the availible tools to “sound off” on this one Any links?

    mudlnthru
    Burnsville
    Posts: 199
    #236458

    Steve’s comments bring to mind a strange experience we’ve had on Lake Osakis during the past decade. It used to be a conservation lake that the DNR harvested for walleyes (quite awhile ago, I think). My girl’s family has had property there for 30 years and they’ve fished that lake for most of that time. When we first moved to Minnesota 10 years ago, she told me all about the 1 – 2 lb. sunfish and giant crappies that they used to take out of the lake. She couldn’t wait to get up to the cabin and start fishing for them in the spring of the first year we were here. That was back in 1992. From that year until 1999, we never pulled a sunny out of the lake that was bigger than 1/2 pound.

    We hunted hard, her dad hunted along with us and we never had any luck in finding the fish. Once in awhile, we’d run into a school of crappies that were good-sized, but nothing like what they said had been there. Apparently, the “giants” had disappeared. We talked to other fishermen, many of whom spent 3 or 4 days a week on the lakes and they were just as mystified by the disappearance of the big ones. They blamed the lack of fish on a huge amount of overfishing in 1991, saying that everyone had taken too many of the big ones and that they figured there might not be any more in the lake.

    All of a sudden, in 1999, we started catching giant spring sunfish again. Same places as before, and nests started appearing all over the lake, some in places where we’d never seen any. The sunnies were back in huge numbers and we were seeing some full-blown 1 1/4 pounders that practically jumped into the boat.

    Where could they have gone? Obviously, the fish hide out a lot and people can’t always find them. Osakis doesn’t have any huge inlets or outlets where they could have gone, so the answer has to lie in the lake itself. I’m beginning to think that the same thing occurs on regular cycles in many lakes. It could be a pattern that results from weather, where the fish stay deeper during various long-term conditions and are only brought back around by changes in average temp, clarity and so forth. It no longer surprises me that the fish would disappear and suddenly reappear or that a particular year-class might suddenly seem to be gone at some point. We’d never be able to locate them without some sort of long-term study that would happen to include the conditions that caused them to be gone in the first place.

    My dad used to be an organic chemist for Dow and participated in the development of a lot of the Ag products on today’s market. He once said that over 300 compounds were developed each year and maybe one of them would work on something. Constant testing and “accidental” experiments were the only way to find out for sure. That’s probably the only way we’ll ever really figure out what patterns fish develop, too, or how they act in the constantly varying conditions that we see on the river.

    Sorry for the babbling. Obviously, I spend way too much time thinking about the catching during the winter and not enough time fishing. It would be interesting to compare records and start some sort of long term survey, though.

    Mike

    rivereyes
    Osceola, Wisconsin
    Posts: 2782
    #236465

    puzzles like this…. I love them……

    this is the fascination that I have with fishing… particularly walleye and sauger.. but it applies to all…. the environment they live in is alien to us.. we only scratch the surface… we have little idea what is going on underneath… OUR main sampling technique is angling.. that makes it even tougher… sometimes angling is NOT an effective technique for the harvest of fish… and sometimes its the MOST effective sampling technique…. everything is variable….

    one thing for sure however… fish are NOT an unlimited resource… my personal feeling is there are times when fish populationsCAN be hurt by angling….. times when they are concentrated and vulnerable…. Ive been river fishing for many years….. and a pattern Ive seen is that there is almost always a good strong late fall bite that tapers off during the mid winter months then picks up again as spring nears….. why is this? all I have is theories…. and no proof…..

    so heres my theory for whats its worth…. in the fall for SOME reason there is a strong push of fish from the lake….. they move up and concentrate around the dam… fisherman respond to this by fishing heavily, they harvest many fish….. perhaps they harvest the ones most vulnerable to angling… or perhaps the fish eventually learn to not respond to the techniques that most are using…. Im not sure…. either way angling success for keepers declines dramatically over a period of weeks…. particularly in the area near the dam….. the farther down river you go the more likely you are to still find fish that may have run up from the lake or at least have not been fished nearly as heavily…. eitherway you have some sporadic success….. Ive found it best to do something others are NOT doing, use colors they are NOT using….. fish areas that are NOT being pressured heavily…… these things seem to help increase your percentages….. Ive set up my fishfinder (an fl8) so that it works just like when IM ice fishing and I can watch my lure/bait…. Ive sat and seen fish after fish come and look (while vertical jigging)… sometimes even multiple fish at a time… and the most I ever got was a light bump….. so there were fish there…. but they were VERY negative fish…. hit them at the right time with the right presentation and you will catch them…. but most often its going to be tough going……

    so…. I conclude…

    NOPE the year class is NOT gone….

    Many fish by the dam have went home with people….

    the rest have left or developed severe lockjaw……

    but its still great to get out there and try it… who knows… maybe you will find the “magic” technique for the day….. and sometimes it will even work for a period of time….. I remember a couple of winters ago, I finally found that a tiny perch colored rap was a killer (on a 3 way)… I cleaned up with that until spring brought the water up and muddied it….

    and Ive not had that kind of luck with that presentation since then… who knows why…. its fascinating isnt it??

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