Miss. River Guiding

I inquired about doing some river guiding to the USFW a while back. I was told that inorder to guide one must have a Coast Guard License commonly called the “six-pack” license. From what they told me only a couple of these licenses have been issued to local guides. Seems surprising since there seems to be quite a few on the river. From what I understand this is no easy task and asked questions to one of the guides on here on a PM and he blocked me. I can only assume he is guiding illegaly from not wanting to answer the questions. Could someone else please help.

1) How much does the license cost?
2) Did you take a study course?
3) Did you get a limited license for a limited area or do are you able to travel up and down the river?
4) From what I was told St. Louis is the place the test is conducted. Is that the closest place?
5) How long is it good for?

thanks guys!

There has been a lot of discussion on this topic nationally. Many guides here on the Miss are simply waiting until the new rules are actively enforced.

If you go out to google and search on “Coast Guard Six Pack” you will get many links with tons of info. You should find an answer to all of your questions above.

Good Luck.

Jon,
thanks for the quick responce. From what they told me, it is a remote possibility that you will get busted but if you were to have an accident and not properly licensed your insurance would not cover you. Sounds to me pretty risky and still against the law.

Hey Sturg,

There should also be classes that will come up in the winter months that should be closer…I’m just learning about these myself…I believe there are a couple different ways to take your test…One is by reading up on all the material in the text books that you can purchase and then driving to one of the CC Offices and taking the test on a specific date, spending all the $ and if you pass ,,,, great !!! if you fail…you need to do it all over again including the $ for the test…(I’m still not clear on how much $ the test costs…

Then another way is to get signed up for a series of classes , where the instructor teaches you the text books and almost guarantee’s you a passing grade…this is of coarse more $ i believe…

All the info is information I have recieved second hand and not from the Coast Guard…

I hope this onformation helps and when I do get more concrete information I’ll pass it on here…

Sturg, It is a fact that you need a USCG license to carry passengers for hire on the Mississippi River as well as a number of other Federal waters in MN.

The license costs $140 ($50 evaluation,$45 test, $45 issuance) for an original issue and is good for 5 years. Most people will take a study course to help with passing the test as it can be a real bear. These courses usually run from $1000 to $1200. You also need to have First aid and CPR cards, physical, drug test, criminal background check, fingerprints, as well as document 360 days on the water in the last 5 years.

The St. Louis REC (REGIONAL EXAM CENTER) does the southern 1/2 of MN and the Toledo REC does the northern 1/2 of MN.

You can get a license to operate on inland waters, western rivers, the Great Lakes, or oceans to various distances. Each of the licenses that I listed will cover any area that precedes it. For example a Great Lakes license will also cover inland waters and western rivers.

If you are operating without the proper license and you needed to file a claim there is almost no chance of having your insurance being valid and having a claim paid.

The requirement for the USCG Motorboat Operator’s (Six-Pack)License is

a federal one on waters subject to US jurisdiction, when one is carrying

passengers for hire (sport fishing included). Examples of these waters

in MN include Lake Superior, Lake of the Woods, Leech, Cass, Rainy,

Namakan, Gull, Whitefish, the navigable portion of the Miss., Minn.,

Red, St. Louis & St. Croix Rivers & a number of others. If you carry

more than 6 passengers another type of license is required from the

USCG. For more information on the federal requirements and waters

subject to US jurisdiction contact the USCG Marine Safety Detachment in

St. Paul @ 651-290-3991 or their website at:

http://www.uscg.mil/d8/mso/stlouis/MSD.St.Paul.htm

Below is a letter from the Coast Gaurd that was posted on a regional tourism website.

“UNITED STATES COAST GUARD

DEAR PRUDENT MARINE ENTHUSIAST:

THIS LETTER IS INTENDED TO FAMILIARIZE YOU WITH THE LAWS REGARDING

CHARTERING OR OPERATING A VESSEL FOR HIRE.

MUCH LIKE THE FAMOUS EXPRESSION, “LET THE BUYER BEWARE” COVERS

THE PITFALLS OF MAKING A NEW PURCHASE, A NEW EXPRESSION, “LET THE MARINE

ENTHUSIAST BEWARE” APPLIES TO THE BOATING PUBLIC. YOU SHOULD BE AWARE THAT

CHARTER FISHING BOATS MUST HAVE A LICENSED OPERATOR. EXCURSION BOATS MUST

HAVE A LICENSED OPERATOR. SCUBA DIVING PLATFORM BOATS MUST HAVE A LICENSED OPERATOR. IN OTHER WORDS, IF YOU ARE BEING CHARGED IN ANY; WAY FOR THE SERVICES PROVIDED BY THE VESSEL, THEN THE OPERATOR OF THE VESSEL MUST HAVE A COAST GUARD LICENSE.

THE ONLY WAY TO ENSURE THE OPERATOR HAS A LICENSE IS TO SEE IT. THE OPERATOR IS REQUIRED TO HAVE IT WITH HIM JUST LIKE YOU ARE REQUIRED TO

HAVE YOUR DRIVER’S LICENSE WITH YOU WHEN OPERATING A MOTOR VEHICLE. THE LICENSE WILL EXPLAIN THE SIZE AND TYPE OF VESSEL THE OPERATOR CAN DRIVE

AND THE WATERS ON WHICH HE OR SHE IS AUTHORIZED TO OPERATE. PLEASE PROTECT

YOURSELF AND MAKE SURE YOUR SEE A LICENSE BEFORE THE VESSEL LEAVES THE

PIER. MOST OPERATORS POST THEIR LICENSE ON THE VESSEL NEAR THE OPERATING

STATION. IF THE LICENSE IS NOT POSTED, THEN ASK TO SEE IT.

THE VESSEL OPERATOR IS THE MOST IMPORTANT FACTOR IN BOATING SAFETY. THE

OPERATOR CONTROLS THE SPEED AND DIRECTION OF THE VESSEL OR WHETHER THE

VESSEL GETS UNDERWAY AT ALL. THIS INDIVIDUAL MUST HAVE THE EXPERIENCE AND

TRAINING NECESSARY TO MANAGE NORMAL OPERATIONS AND UNFORESEEN

CIRCUMSTANCES. BECAUSE OF THE IMPORTANCE OF THIS POSITION IN GUARANTEEING

THE SAFETY OF THE PAYING PUBLIC, THE U.S. COAST GUARD PROHIBITS PERSONS

FROM SCHEDULING, CHARTERING, OR ARRANGING PASSENGER FOR HIRE TRIPS ON U.S.

NAVIGABLE WATERS ON VESSELS THAT ARE OPERATED BY UNLICENSED INDIVIDUALS.

BOTH THE CHARTERER AND THE VESSEL OPERATOR COULD BE SUBJECT TO A $25,000

CIVIL PENALTY. ADDITIONALLY, LICENSED PERSONNEL IN VIOLATION OF THESE LAWS

MAY HAVE THEIR LICENSES SUSPENDED OR REVOKED.

PLEASE CALL MY INVESTIGATIONS DEPARTMENT AT (843) 724-7690 IF YOU HAVE ANY

QUESTIONS.

SINCERELY,

F.J. STURM, COMMANDER U.S. COAST GUARD, OFFICER IN CHARGE, MARINE

INSPECTION”

Jon, It seems that you are saying that if we are not going to get caught it is alright to violate the law. Does this also apply to slots, limits, and seasons? I am sure that all the people operating locally have the proper license because it would be rather silly to post on the internet if they were operating in violation of the law.

That is GREAT information…

thanks very much for posting it…

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Jon, It seems that you are saying that if we are not going to get caught it is alright to violate the law. Does this also apply to slots, limits, and seasons? I am sure that all the people operating locally have the proper license because it would be rather silly to post on the internet if they were operating in violation of the law.

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What I’m saying is there are many guides who recently bacame aware of the NEW law. These guides are not going to simply guit working until they have the license. Currently, there is zero enforcement of the licensing that I am personally aware of. I also don’t know of a single guide who is fully licensed at this time. Let me make this comparison. Let’s say the DNR imposes a new law effective today that states you cannot keep a fish until you take a $1200 class that certifies that you can properly clean and package a kept fish. But the DNR is not enforcing the law when you are checked. Are you going stop possessing fish until you take that class?

Also, you wrote:
“If you are operating without the proper license and you needed to file a claim there is almost no chance of having your insurance being valid and having a claim paid.” That statement is not correct. Each individual needs to review their coverage based on their needs. My insurance covers guiding on all inland waters. License or not. And I have that in writing. (However, I don’t guide, but it’s great coverage.)

I was surfing through the Coast Guard website to try and find out the specific licensing requirements. This link seems to spell it all out: web page

I was asked to come here and explain what I know on the subject.

I run a waterfowl guide service on Pool 9. Three years ago I was told that I needed to become Coast Guard certified to be legal on the river. I was given a year’s grace period to comply. This is not a new law, it has been in place for quite a while it’s just not been enforced in the upper river areas. That does not mean you can continue what you are doing and not be subjected to the $10,000 this fine carries if caught. As of last year there have been 3 people that complied with the rules according to the FWS manager at Magreger. Since I only guide on Pool 9 I was able to get a limited license which is somewhat easier to get than ther regular license since I did not have to take the Navagational part of the test. I studied my butt off and passed the first time. The cost was $240.00 plus the cost of a drug test, CPR and first Aide training along with a study guide I purchased. This of course didn’t include the expense of traveling to St. Louis. If you fail you can take it again the next day and if you fail again at least a week later. If you fail that, you will need to reaply which will cost another $240.00.
Here is the deal. As a hunting guide I also need a special-use permit from the USFW. This is a anual $100.00 fee which also requires you to have the Coast Guard Lic. and Insurance. For some reason fishing guides are excempt from this permit. As of right now the only ones that are required are the hunting guides and fish-float operators.

I’ve been checked twice so don’t think they are not out there! Also, as mentioned before, if you are in an accident and someone gets hurt your insurance will not cover you if you are not properly licensed. This is nothing to play around with!

If some of you guys have anymore questions, I will be happy to answer them for you.

Good hunting and fishing,
Tony Toye

Jon,
I didn’t read your post very clear. With that being said, if you are guiding and their is an accident and you don’t have the proper license I guarantee you a lawyer will rip you apart and your insuranse will act like they don’t know you. Without the license you are illegal to guide on the Mississippi River, no if’s an’s or but’s.

How can I go about getting a temporary grace period to get my license ? Who do i contact ?

What Toye stated is spot on.I do not believe there is a “temporary grace period” to operate without it.You could call the USFW office,but they will probably tell you to cease operations until you have the proper license.

If you get caught without it,the first time you may get a warning,or a fine.From what I heard,they ARE enforceing this.I don’t think it is worth the chance.Heck,your “best”buddy could rat you out and you are busted.

I recently acquired the license to operate the fishing float in Trempealeau.It was operated in the past without the proper license.I started to operate it in early 2003(unemployed) and had the”coming to Jesus”meeting with the USFW folks.We then ceased operations until somebody was licensed.I guess I was the only one willing to step-up to the plate.

When you do apply for the license,MAKE SURE that all the paperwork is filled out to the tee,otherwise it will get rejected.This will cause delays in evaluations and you will have to send it back in with the missing info(been there,done that).If you do it on your own and are in doubt about anything,call the USCG REC.They will answer any questions you may have.

If you can go to any of the classes offered,great.If you do it on your own,you will need to obtain the USCG Navigation Rules book,plus a good study book(I used Get Your Captains License by International Marine).Includes a CDROM to do self-testing.The license I got was a restricted route,Miss.river Pool 7.They base the license on the area that you have the most recency.I had more than enough to qualify for the Great Lakes,but that is something I choose to leave behind!

Any questions,feel free to PM me.

TOYE and tvsmeso are both absolutley right.

Dave, as stated there is no grace period, waivers, or exemptions of any kind. If you are operating a charter without the license you can be fined up to $25,000. Your clients can be fined up to $25,000 for hiring an unlicensed operator. And you WILL be fined $5,000 per day for not being in a random drug test program. But hey thats only $55,000 for one days charter.

Jon, I have $50 that says your insurance will not cover you if you are commercially guiding on federal navigable waters without the proper USCG license. You may have something in writing but if you operating in violation of the law without the proper license they will wash there hands of the claim.

If you can get them to put in writing they will cover commercial guiding on federal navigable waters without the applicable USCG license I will have the check in the mail for you the same day .

As mentioned in a previous post Get Your Captains License by International Marine is the absolute best study guide on the market. It has all 6,215 exam questions and the answers it also allows you to self test on the computer with automatic scoring. Its about $60 but worth every penney.

I will be more than happy to answer any questions anyone has regarding this.

ecnook,
I was given a grace period for the special-use permit only. I was still under violation of the Coast Guard for that year. What happened was a new refuge manager took over and informed the permit holders that in order to continue getting the permit and staying legal with the USFW we needed the Coast Guard Lic. We were given one year to comply. Ironicly it seemed that is about how long it took to get certified.
This requirement really weeds out the wannabes!

Sturg
The information you are looking for I am able to obtain, a friend of mine is the federal fish and wildlife officer from pepin to the iowa border. If anyone needs or has questions pm me and I will get a anwser back to you, I will
see if he can log in and anwser any questions, he would rather educate everyone then have to write tickets, he is a very reasonable guy, and yes if they come upon a guided boat they will ask for the liscense, and the ticket is substantially large. it maybe a little effort on the guides part, but in my line of work you think of liablity all the time, can you imagine having to give up all your gear because someone took you to court because they fell out of the boat and reason he fell out was because the guide was not licensed, didnt matter the guy was born with two left feet, closed case as far as the judge would see it. I will try and get the answers for the first post as soon as I can.

MiniGrub

Alot of the Miss. and St Croix fall under NPS and USF&W jurisdiction and you will soon see the day where you will need a permit from them to operate commercially in these areas. In the areas that they issue these permits they use apoint system to determine who gets permits or not. If you were applying for a permit and had a violation for not being properly licensed you would not have a snowballs chance of getting one.

There appears to be great resistance to getting licensed from guides in MN.. It seems like it would be a no brainer. Get licensed and instantly your service becomes worth 20 to 50% more. In every area of the country that guides need to be licensed and are in compliance the going rate for a day on the water for 2 anglers runs $350 to $400. Here locally there are guides who charge $150 to $200 a day. Here is a tip for those guides, if you charge a very low rate it screams I AM NOT LICENSED!! to anyone in the know.

it sounds like your trying to justify brakeing the law Jon.I would think someone running a respectable buisiness would not run it if they new they were braking the law.and instead of trying to convience people it’s ok to break laws they would be doing everything in there power to become legal before operating again.if professonel guides knowingly brake laws what does that tell the rest of us.

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if professonel(sic) guides knowingly brake(sic) laws what does that tell the rest of us.

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That we’re not being overcharged to support thier participation in a government-endorsed racket? That the end consumer will always outfit themselves with a best-value solution? That Adam Smith had it correct, and the free market economy is the irresistible force with which government can only ally itself, as opposition to it will invariably result in defeat?

It tells me lots of things, none of which I didn’t already know.

You might want to check out my post in the general forum “guide has sour grapes”. Investigated this situation in depth and aforementioned post is my column from the Janesville Gazette. My daughter is a Coastie/BM3 working the Miss down around Paducah, KY. , so Coast Guard source who gave me info for the article was pretty open to talking.
My kid says the USCG is NOT checking guides on the lower river…hands are too full with inspecting commerical boats.
Coastie CPO in Wis. says the USCG is NOT checking guides on the upper river either…even if somebody “rats” on you.
The Coast Guard does, however, investigate accidents, etc. If you were guiding without the UPV license (6 pak) your butt would be in a serious sling–at least on the MISS. LAKE WINNEBAGO SYSTEM AND GREEN BAY.
The Coastie chief said (off the record) that the USCG feels requiring UPV licensure on smaller waters is a total bunch of BS–urging us to get petitions going to exempt smaller waters from UPV license. Don’t believe I’ll be guiding on the Miss without the UPV license, my “sour grapes” post will explain more to ya. Hope this helps!

My 2 cents worth. These Guides are not giving boat rides for hire. They are giving guide service for hire. It just makes it a lot easier to guide with there boat than to go in mine. If we have laws like this it will just up the cost of guide service. when I hire a guide I will not pay him for a boat ride.

JIM

Jim, You are correct in this observation

I just really want to know why any body who responds to these post does not sign up properly.I would love to talk to anyone who has a problem with me teaching somebody how to catch walleyes on the worlds greatest river! I give alot of info out free , I guesS we can just ask for a free will donation and then it will not be guideing! This is blown completey out of proportion! I think some people who have the right to pull up this sight should fill out the right columes so we know more about you.All we want to do is to teach everyone a better and more productive way to fish and to catch and release the good gene pool. This has nothing to do with the Coast Guard which I fully respect and do occasionally turn in a crazy driver. I can probably speak for anyone who as ever guided, that we have to be very patience and Father at times! or a big Brother.I REALLY WANT TO KNOW WHY YOU FEEL WE HAVE TO GO THRU SO ANY BELLS AND WHISTLES TO TEACH PEOPLE THIS FINE SPORT? WE ALL HAVE THE SAFEST RIGS ON THE RIVER BUT I GUESS SOMEBODY WHO HAS A LICENSE, MUST BE THE ONE STARTING THIS? Well from now on I guess it will be free will donation.Please respond and sign up the correct way so we know where your coming from. I;m sorry for being harsh but somebody must really have a problem with us guides?

Shotzy,

I don’t know who you were calling out but since I posted, guide, and have the license I will be the first to respond.

What do you mean by filling out the registration correctly? If you mean all the spam in the bio’s, no thankyou. You don’t have to call me and tell me why you don’t think you need the license, just call John Lindell with the USFW at Mcgreger at (563) 873-3423. I however fell you will not like what he has to say. By guiding un-licensed your days are numbered. You will either get in an accident and be sued or you will be checked and fined. If I were you I would get my act together before one of those things happen! If you are a serious guide this is a no-brainer!

FYI since I received the license 3 years ago I did not raise my prices. My name is Tony Toye and my email is [email protected].