VNP, did the park ranger go to far?

  • grubson
    Harris, Somewhere in VNP
    Posts: 1636
    #2138887

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Mr.Beads wrote:</div>
    Was there another article all of you are reading that I missed in here bc the facts seems incredibly vague at best and not sure how one could provide any kind of opinion on it

    This is just a very different thread than usual for some reason. Extra hilarious that it even has the quote from Justin’s mom saying he’s “a good kid” like every one that gets posted here. Shouldn’t he have just complied and don’t we need to wait for footage or an investigation to make up our minds? I do agree with most of the people here but the irony is off the charts. Maybe IDO is coming around…

    Out trolling this evening I see?
    Ive got a few minutes what the heck I’ll bite.
    Sounds to me like you’re talking about a situation you know nothing about. I have only heard the story from my family members who live on the Ash River in the summer and I have no reason to question them as they know the Ebel family well.
    He was pulling the houseboat off of the rocks in rough water when they were stopped by the rangers. They wanted to board the houseboat He suggested that they go as mile up the lake into a bay to escape the rough water first. They didn’t want to wait.
    Complying would have put them all in potential danger as at that time they didn’t know how damaged the pontoons were on the boat. Not to mention boarding in rough water vs calm water.

    As for irony, I can only guess what, or who you’re getting at there.

    If IDO is “coming around” to your liking, I’m leaving.

    blackbay
    Posts: 699
    #2138888

    There’s been scattered incidents over the years throughout the park, both by Rangers and occasionally the MN CO Dutch referred to. I think a big part of the issues come from federal employees that have zero ties to an area, come in doing everything by the book and may have a certain attitude towards nature and tourists. A few years back there was a Ranger who thought he was super cop and it was his duty to protect HIS park. He had come in from elsewhere and he only lasted a short time at VNP due to complaints.

    Dutchboy
    Central Mn.
    Posts: 16766
    #2138889

    Dave I heard this weekend that one of the pontoons on the houseboat was indeed damaged. Again I have no proof but it would make sense. And yes, thats same story of the events I heard.

    Timmy
    Posts: 1243
    #2138891

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Timmy wrote:</div>
    To be brutally honest, I am surprised it took as long as it did for there to be an “incident” up there. Of the 3 national parks I visit frequently, my impression is that fisherman and powerboats are not looked upon favorably – IN GENERAL. Not every ranger, not even most, seems to have a dislike for fisherman/boaters, but I have personally witnessed enough behavior by them that fits the articles narrative for me to have the gut feeling of siding with Ebel.

    Being a water based National Park you can’t lump them in with other lakes and rivers. It’s different up here for the most part.

    The other two parks I frequent are water based as well. Those were my reference.

    Dutchboy
    Central Mn.
    Posts: 16766
    #2138892

    VNP is the only water park in the federal system.

    Timmy
    Posts: 1243
    #2138894

    Hmmmm. I was referring to Apostle islands and
    Isle royale? I thought those were fed parks?

    Deuces
    Posts: 5268
    #2138899

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Mr.Beads wrote:</div>
    Was there another article all of you are reading that I missed in here bc the facts seems incredibly vague at best and not sure how one could provide any kind of opinion on it

    Doesn’t seem vague to me.

    “A sampling of issues raised during the hour-long meeting included:
    A culture of unwarranted and excessive stops, based on guest reports.
    Guests who have been stopped multiple times in their boats by rangers during short visits to the lake.
    Rangers acting rudely or in a demeaning or belligerent manner to guests.
    Fear of retaliation among guests and businesspeople should someone register a formal complaint about being stopped or the conduct of rangers.
    Concern that Wentz is responsible for reviewing complaints about law enforcement rather than having an independent committee including community representatives do so.
    A lack of transparency from park officials about law enforcement activities, particularly with regard to the tasing incident.
    Creating a hazard by placing three bouys in a navigable channel in non-park waters.
    Rangers interfering with resort personnel when they are trying to handle a situation involving their guests and boats.
    Guests who may not return.
    The park is in danger of developing a negative reputation for excessive law enforcement activity that will negatively impact businesses.

    The OP was of a tasering incident, and the lack of facts layed out specifically for that was vague, I thought it was fairly clear that was the direction of this thread.

    Hey
    Posts: 168
    #2138903

    Vessel Searches.—Not only is the warrant requirement inap- plicable to brief stops of vessels, but also none of the safeguards ap- plicable to stops of automobiles on less than probable cause are necessary predicates to stops of vessels. In United States v. Villamonte-Marquez,74 the Court upheld a random stop and board- ing of a vessel by customs agents, lacking any suspicion of wrong- doing, for purpose of inspecting documentation. The boarding was authorized by statute derived from an act of the First Congress,75 and hence had ‘‘an impressive historical pedigree’’ carrying with it a presumption of constitutionality. Moreover, ‘‘important factual differences between vessels located in waters offering ready access to the open sea and automobiles on principal thoroughfares in the border area’’ justify application of a less restrictive rule for vessel searches. The reason why random stops of vehicles have been held impermissible under the Fourth Amendment, the Court explained, is that stops at fixed checkpoints or roadblocks are both feasible and less subject to abuse of discretion by authorities. ‘‘But no rea- sonable claim can be made that permanent checkpoints would be practical on waters such as these where vessels can move in any direction at any time and need not follow established ‘avenues’ as automobiles must do.’’76 Because there is a ‘‘substantial’’ govern- mental interest in enforcing documentation laws, ‘‘especially in wa- ters where the need to deter or apprehend smugglers is great,’’ the Court found the ‘‘limited’’ but not ‘‘minimal’’ intrusion occasioned by boarding for documentation inspection to be reasonable.77 Dis-
    72 California v. Acevedo, 500 U.S. 565 (1991) (overruling Arkansas v. Sanders, 442 U.S. 753 (1979).
    73 United States v. Ross, 456 U.S. 798 (1982). A Ross search of a container found in an automobile need not occur soon after its seizure. United States v. Johns, 469 U.S. 478 (1985) (three-day time lapse). See also Florida v. Jimeno, 500 U.S. 248 (1991) (consent to search automobile for drugs constitutes consent to open contain- ers within the car that might contain drugs).
    74 462 U.S. 579 (1983). The opinion of the Court, written by Justice Rehnquist, was joined by Chief Justice Burger and by Justices White, Blackmun, Powell, and O’Connor. Justice Brennan’s dissent was joined by Justice Marshall and, on mootness but not on the merits, by Justice Stevens.
    7519 U.S.C. §1581(a), derived from §31 of the Act of Aug. 4, 1790, ch.35, 1 Stat. 164.
    76 462 U.S. at 589. Justice Brennan’s dissent argued that a fixed checkpoint was feasible in this case, involving a ship channel in an inland waterway. id. at at 608 n.10. The fact that the Court’s rationale was geared to the difficulties of law enforce- ment in the open seas suggests a reluctance to make exceptions to the general rule. Note as well the Court’s later reference to this case as among those ‘‘reflect[ing] longstanding concern for the protection of the integrity of the border.’’ United States v. Montoya de Hernandez, 473 U.S. 531, 538 (1985).
    77 462 U.S. at 593.

    1242
    AMENDMENT 4—SEARCHES AND SEIZURES
    senting Justice Brennan argued that the Court for the first time was approving ‘‘a completely random seizure and detention of per- sons and an entry onto private, noncommercial premises by police officers, without any limitations whatever on the officers’ discretion or any safeguards against abuse.

    Hey
    Posts: 168
    #2138905

    § 3.4 For what purposes may my vessel be inspected?

    (a) An authorized person may at any time stop and/or board a vessel to examine documents, licenses or permits relating to operation of the vessel, and to inspect the vessel to determine compliance with regulations pertaining to safety equipment, vessel capacity, marine sanitation devices, and other pollution and noise abatement requirements.

    (b) An authorized person who identifies a vessel being operated without sufficient life saving or firefighting devices, in an overloaded or other unsafe condition, as defined in United States Coast Guard regulations, or in violation of a noise level specified in § 3.15(a) of this part, may direct the operator to suspend further use of the vessel until the condition is corrected.

    Dutchboy
    Central Mn.
    Posts: 16766
    #2138914

    Nice googling skills. Now can you find the part about vessels in distress such as being run aground on a rock and then apply the common sense approach to what you posted above? In my mind since the officers were there on site there was no reason not to let the houseboat be safely removed from the rocks to a safe place where the search could have then been talked about. If they had suspicion the houseboat was running dope, kids or any other illegal activity they would have had a search warrant. They didn’t, they were checking for safety gear which could have / should have been done out of the wind in a safe place.

    I’m done, the courts will settle this.

    CaptainMusky
    Posts: 23299
    #2138923

    Since it was referenced its the one person’s 8th assignment in a National Park system, one has to wonder if there is a pattern here.

    glenn57
    cold spring mn
    Posts: 12034
    #2138928

    so, until dutchy posted this i havent heard about this incident until now.

    i read the whole thread, twice, and what i find striking is no mention of the park rangers, law enforcement lifting a finger to assist this watercraft that was in trouble?????? coffee doah doah chased

    Deuces
    Posts: 5268
    #2138942

    no reason not to let the houseboat be safely removed from the rocks to a safe place

    On the rocks is a safe place if the boat was indeed damaged. It’s an officers duty to not let any harm come to individuals, I’d imagine the natural resource as well after that with possible gas leaks or if boat does sink, one can see a business owner having the potential to not see things clearly and want to protect their investments more than their own safety. Article was incredibly vague on where the passengers were during all this, what the boat owner was specifically doing to move it, how many times the officers gave warnings, quite honestly anything of substance is missing.

    But since the place holds great memories for most here, and it’s of importance to them and their family it’s an automatic jump on the officers and the system. Everyone should assess that with incidences in the city and how quickly most are to jump on the opposite side bc they simply don’t have that connection.

    Ill end my contributions to this vague situation by saying if the owner just did what he was told he never would have gotten tased

    tswoboda
    Posts: 8693
    #2138950

    Article was incredibly vague on where the passengers were during all this, what the boat owner was specifically doing to move it, how many times the officers gave warnings, quite honestly anything of substance is missing.

    His mom said he wasn’t doing anything wrong and that he’s a good kid. What other information could you possibly need to form an emotional opinion on this?!?!

    404 ERROR
    MN
    Posts: 3918
    #2138952

    On the rocks is a safe place if the boat was indeed damaged.

    But since the place holds great memories for most here, and it’s of importance to them and their family it’s an automatic jump on the officers and the system. Everyone should assess that with incidences in the city and how quickly most are to jump on the opposite side bc they simply don’t have that connection.

    Ill end my contributions to this vague situation by saying if the owner just did what he was told he never would have gotten tased

    Agreed. It seems distorted perception and irony is playing a roll here…

    “my cousin knows his neighbors brother and he says he’s innocent”.

    In no way am I saying there was an overreach here…but I’m also not saying there wasn’t. Wait for the details before getting your pitchforks. Or molotov cocktails…whatever tool you feel necessary nowadays… coffee

    dirtywater
    Posts: 1627
    #2138988

    But since the place holds great memories for most here, and it’s of importance to them and their family it’s an automatic jump on the officers and the system. Everyone should assess that with incidences in the city and how quickly most are to jump on the opposite side bc they simply don’t have that connection.

    Ill end my contributions to this vague situation by saying if the owner just did what he was told he never would have gotten tased

    Yep. Move this incident to the Boom Island boat launch and the crowd would be saying “Just do what the LEO says, follow instructions, and you don’t get hurt.” Followed by the classic “play stupid games, win stupid prizes” crowd. That one never gets old.

    Netguy
    Minnetonka
    Posts: 3217
    #2138992

    Boy, if this is the Monday’s topic, this Friday’s topic should be a doozy!!

    Drizzy Musky
    Duluth
    Posts: 258
    #2139038

    Thread should be titled urban policing goes rural

    BigWerm
    SW Metro
    Posts: 11862
    #2139050

    what i find striking is no mention of the park rangers, law enforcement lifting a finger to assist this watercraft that was in trouble?

    They general won’t either, they will assist people and make sure they are safe, but equipment/boats are the operator/businesses responsibility and the law will just monitor and fine accordingly if need be.

    Hey
    Posts: 168
    #2139069

    Nice googling skills

    Thank you.

    Now can you find the part about vessels in distress such as being run aground on a rock and then apply the common sense approach to what you posted above?

    Please re-read the part below where it says may direct the operator to suspend further use of the vessel. Common sense doesn’t overrule maritime law.

    (b) An authorized person who identifies a vessel being operated without sufficient life saving or firefighting devices, in an overloaded or other unsafe condition, as defined in United States Coast Guard regulations, or in violation of a noise level specified in § 3.15(a) of this part, may direct the operator to suspend further use of the vessel until the condition is corrected.

    It’s a federal park plus it borders 55 miles with Canada. Not only can you have MN conservation officers and sheriff’s officer but…

    You could have park rangers (carry the same authority as the coast guard in federal waters), border patrol and the coast guard itself.

    Coast guard/Park Rangers have vast authority as it is. Add international waters and it would probably take 2 yrs of school to understand all the maritime laws that exist up there.

    1. They can board that houseboat anytime they want to conduct an inspection.

    2. They can also shut down that boat from moving another inch if they find an unsafe condition.

    1 and 2 are not debatable. It’s federal/maritime law.

    What happened after 1 and 2 we will wait to hear the rest of the story I guess.

    tomr
    cottage grove, mn
    Posts: 1287
    #2139094

    What strikes me odd about this story and I am curious for more details is that he was tased twice. First the officers would have to know that to taser someone will entail a full blown review and they could end up in civil court or worse. So I think the situation must have escalated to the officers worried about their safety quickly. Also how did he get up from the first taser? Not an easy thing to do I am told. Story states he is good kid only to find out not a kid at all but a late 40 to early 50 year old man. Mom said in article “Now this boat they wanted to board. They never did.” Well then what the heck happened? Officers just drove away? As far as enforcement goes been to VNP several times and have been checked twice and both were handled professionally.

    tomr
    cottage grove, mn
    Posts: 1287
    #2139204

    Thanks for posting the video Hey. Clears up my misconception that a taser was used mostly for defense and video shows how it is employed to force compliance. Seems Dirty Water “play stupid games, win stupid prizes” is applicable. That was a big guy and he screamed like a little girl when tased. Getting tased twice seems like wtf was the situation though the ranger in video clearly states if he does not comply will get tased again so I guess I assume he was not complying with rangers instructions. Interested in hearing more of the details.

    3Rivers
    Posts: 1102
    #2224982

    I remembered this thread as a friend shared the FOIA bodycam footage of this incident with me recently.

    I think they were both out of line, but it appears the Rangers went a bit overboard with the tasers and arrest. I’m still trying to figure out what the initial suspicion of a crime was? How were the Rangers making that a safer place in this instance?

    gregory
    Red wing,mn
    Posts: 1628
    #2224988

    Correct how are they making it better, you can tell the frustration by houseboat owner, he kept saying this isn’t how it works which I think he’s correct. He has potentially two houseboats in distress in his eyes, and rangers went on a power trip. Imo

    Justin riegel
    Posts: 948
    #2224990

    Correct how are they making it better, you can tell the frustration by houseboat owner, he kept saying this isn’t how it works which I think he’s correct. He has potentially two houseboats in distress in his eyes, and rangers went on a power trip. Imo

    Agree – to protect and serve, not to harrass

    walleye216
    Posts: 91
    #2225002

    This seems pretty simple. If the person would have complied with law enforcement he would not have been tased. The video shows him attempting to flee law enforcement and resisting. Play stupid games and win stupid prizes.

    biggill
    East Bethel, MN
    Posts: 11321
    #2225003

    Agree – to protect and serve,

    Law enforcement has no legal obligation to protect and serve.

    buckybadger
    Upper Midwest
    Posts: 8367
    #2225007

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Justin riegel wrote:</div>
    Agree – to protect and serve,

    Law enforcement has no legal obligation to protect and serve.

    Agreed. It’s been affirmed by courts time and time again that police have no legal obligation to protect anyone from criminal activity.

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