Topic for debate?

Hey,
Me and my cousin were talking about handgun hunting. My cousin is hunting deer with his 10mm glock. The question is do you think handgun deer hunting should be allowed in slug gun area because of the lack of range with handguns? Also do you think they should have a season such as archery or muzzleloader? I feel that is should be allowed in slug area but don’t need there independent season. My cousin thinks it could “piggy-back” of a season like muzzle loader season.

What do you guys think?

I agree you should be able to use them in slug zones as is already the case, but not a fan of allowing them in Muzzy season or having their own season. I do carry mine when I hunt the slug season at home, but not in the rifle season at the farm anymore.

I’ve never understood the thinking behind allowing handguns in the Slug area. A 7mm or any other large round coming out of a handgun with a 12-14″ barrel has almost the same velocity as those coming out of a 20 -24 ” rifle barrel. It just does not make sense to me. As far as them having a separate season just for handguns I’m not in favor of it. Just not enough disadvantage to it to justify it. I’ve seen people at the target range shooting just as good of groups at 200 yards as those next to them with rifles.

As a 10+ year handgun only deer hunter, it will probably surprise no one to know that I think they should be allowed in the muzzle loader seasons or they should have their own season.

If you look at what’s happened to muzzle loaders and slug guns over the past 20 years, they have become vastly more capable as technology has advanced. Whereas a hunting handgun would have probably had an advantage on both of these weapons 20 years ago, now that same hunting handgun is probably even or at a disadvantage when compared to the modern day slug gun or muzzle loader.

What fishthumper says about handguns being able to produce great accuracy at rifle-like ranges is somewhat true, but only in the highly artificial environment of a shooting range. I can tell you from experience that it is COMPLETELY different in the field.

Handguns are just plain harder to shoot well under field conditions and that imposes a limitation that is unique to handguns. The way a handgun is held, the shorter sighting plane with iron sights, the longer eye relief and lower power of the scope (if used), it all makes it that much harder.

I’m currently using a T/C Contender chambered in 7-30 Waters (7 mm bullet on top of a .30-30 case) with a 2×6 scope. With this setup based on my experience and ability, I feel confident in taking shots out to 100 yards, but only if I have a good shooting rail or I can shoot off of sticks. I wouldn’t even consider an off hand shot of anything more than 25 yards.

Off a bench and a stack of sandbags, it’s a completely different story, but this is the gap between handgun hunting theory and reality. Field conditions dramatically shift what the hunter can reasonably do.

Also, to be honest there might be an initial rush of hunters should the muzzle loader season be opened to handguns, but that would quickly fade as people discovered firsthand that it’s so damn hard. The easy answer if you really want to hunt the ML season, is to buy a modern muzzle loader as it’s vastly easier to shoot a long gun of any flavor well compared to a short barrel, hard kicking, handgun.

Grouse

My reply was more in regard to the velocity issue in a slug zone. The purpose of the Slug only zone was to attempt to reduce the travel distance of the round in what normally is more open areas. My point was some of rounds available to handgun owners is no different than those available to rifle owners. As to the accuracy and other issues pointed out the scope is the turning point in the handgun Vs muzzleloader debate. If scopes were allowed on muzzleloaders during the muzzleloader season I’d totally agree that the advantage of the handgun would be far less. As Far as Field conditions go for handgun shooters I just assumed that most handgun hunters shooting out of a deer stand had some type of shooting rail or sticks in use. If you are talking free hand shooting I will take the muzzleloader with open iron sights any day. The other factor that gives the advantage to the handgun shooter is the speed of the reload over that of a muzzleloader

Let me point out that it’s a slippery slope if you allow handguns into the muzzy season, next you will have people asking why no shotgun in the muzzy season. Pretty soon all you have is an extended or second firearm season. This is one slope I am pretty sure MN doesn’t want to start sliding down considering all the screaming and hollering about deer populations.

sticker wrote:

Let me point out that it’s a slippery slope if you allow handguns into the muzzy season, next you will have people asking why no shotgun in the muzzy season. Pretty soon all you have is an extended or second firearm season. This is one slope I am pretty sure MN doesn’t want to start sliding down considering all the screaming and hollering about deer populations.

Well, here the devil is in the details. What kind of handguns would be allowed? Single shot only? Revolver/straight case only? Iron sights / straight case only? Minimum case length?

In reality, putting any limits on these factors would vastly limit the number of guys who would be interested.

I know several states the either allow crossover of handgun/muzzle loader seasons or have a separate handgun only season have a whole host of limits on what types of handguns may be used so that it’s not a “mini rifle” season and never will be. The most common are straight case only, iron sights only, length restrictions on barrels (generally 10-12 inches or less), and minimum case length that effectively eliminates all common auto-loader chamberings like 9 MM, 40, 45 ACP, etc.

So like every other firearms season has limits, so too should handgun seasons IMO, and that would make it highly unlikely that the overall take would be increased significantly. Honestly, knowing what I know about handguns, if I were to chose the more EFFECTIVE weapon for killing deer between handgun and muzzle loader, it’s hand’s down the muzzle loader. Only somebody who’s really looking for a challenge is going to go out with a handgun and everybody that I’ve talked to who had any real experience with handguns pretty readily admits that it’s a lot harder than they thought it would be.

Grouse

TheFamousGrouse wrote:

Well, here the devil is in the details. What kind of handguns would be allowed? Single shot only? Revolver/straight case only? Iron sights / straight case only? Minimum case length?

Well, then there’s that…..

Under some limitations ( like there is on the muzzleloader season ) I’d be fine with a special season or adding it to the muzzleloader season. To Quote Grouse I ‘m just not a fan of offering a MINI rifle season. With limitations, I don’t think the additional interest or harvest would be all that Great.

Give the handgun hunters one shell and then let them go out during the muzzle loader season. Big revolver with a scope, goes against what the muzzleloader season is supposed to be about.. Traditional equipment. (I know I know. modern muzzleloaders are not traditional flintlocks) But the whole idea of it, to me, is one shot, one chance. Not that I care all that much now that I no longer live in MN, but just me 2cents.

I’m not a deer hunter, but what’s the draw of handgun deer hunting? Extra challenge? I imagine it’d be a lot more challenging to drop a deer at 30-40 yards with a handgun than it would be with a rifle/shotgun.

Does that just mean if there was a broader handgun season that we’d have more wounded deer walking around?

I don’t have anything against deer hunting or hunters, but I do cringe a bit when my uncle goes out and wounds about 3 deer a year because he’s such a crappy shot(maybe an exaggeration).

philtickelson wrote:

I’m not a deer hunter, but what’s the draw of handgun deer hunting? Extra challenge? I imagine it’d be a lot more challenging to drop a deer at 30-40 yards with a handgun than it would be with a rifle/shotgun.

Yes it is a challenge appeal like archery. And of course people need to practice with what ever weapon you use. My cousin can shoot a 3 inch group at 80 yards and he knows that he isn’t very good at shooting off a rest he is better at free handing. As any hunter knows you have to have confident in your weapon. I’m sorry to say but people like your uncle make me cringe two because we need to do our job as hunters to take our game in the most humane way possible.

A lot of good comments I can see both sides. With the new handguns that can be chambered in 30-06 and 308 they are starting to become mini rifles.

philtickelson wrote:

I’m not a deer hunter, but what’s the draw of handgun deer hunting? Extra challenge? I imagine it’d be a lot more challenging to drop a deer at 30-40 yards with a handgun than it would be with a rifle/shotgun.

Does that just mean if there was a broader handgun season that we’d have more wounded deer walking around?

Extra challenge is exactly it. Not to be immodest, but I just got bored with rifle hunting because in a good stand with a .30-06, I just found that any deer I could see, was a goner. I wanted more of the hunting aspect back in the equation, as our bow hunting and muzzle loader friends all tell us, the hunting of the animal really takes on a sharp focus when you have to get so much closer to be effective.

I highly doubt there would be any more wounded deer with a broader handgun season because of the reasons I stated before. With restrictions similar to other states, it’s just too damn hard to have broad mass appeal such that a large number of hunters would flood in.

I’ve had multiple people at the gun club comment that having a scope and a long barrel must make shooting a handgun “a lot easier”. I always offer them a few rounds and without exception in 5-6 times guys have taken me up, they have failed to even get on 8×11 paper at 100 yards. No one has fired more than two rounds with my 7-30 Waters. They quickly find she both barks and bites pretty hard and that doesn’t contribute anything to their ability to hit something.

Allan Davis wrote:

A lot of good comments I can see both sides. With the new handguns that can be chambered in 30-06 and 308 they are starting to become mini rifles.

I often see these .308 barrels and handguns for sale. Seldom does anyone admit it, but the recoil and muzzle blast is so savage that very few people last long with handguns in these chamberings. Also to make a handgun frame and barrel that will withstand these pressures, it gets exceptionally heavy and unpleasant to shoot and carry.

What I think most realize is that if they want to hunt with a rifle, they should just hunt with a rifle.

BTW, I’m now aware of any states that have “true handgun” seasons that allow these chamberings, so it is a bit of a red herring to debate their merits as I cannot see any circumstances where they’d be allowed into a true handgun season anyway.

Grouse