What have people been getting for CO readings in their hubs? I used a 4 gas monitor this past weekend and monitored levels all night and day. With a flex heater on low, high winds, and vents open, it seemed to average about 12 ppm. Peak ppm was 24 ppm. I think anything over 35 ppm over an 8 hour period is bad. I think 100 ppm can be lethal? Id have to look it up in the chemical reference.
That’s probably about average for any combustible gas in a semi-enclosed space, the biggest thing is to always have some ventilation or it will get higher.
For reference you should light your oven and a burner or two in your kitchen. I’m guessing you’ll have similar readings.
Same goes for sitting on your lawnmower, trolling downwind with a gas motor, standing by an idling car, sitting downwind of a generator, etc
100ppm isn’t necessarily lethal, but you’ll definitely get some side effects (headaches, burning eyes, etc)
Respect what CO is and what it can do to you in large quantities, but don’t panic about 5-50 ppm. You’ve been around those quantities virtually every day of your life.
*10 years of daily experience testing confined spaces with 4-gas monitors
Is it CO you need to worry about or low O2? I have always worried about this as well but don’t have a way of checking O2%
Oxygen levels remained at the constant 21%.
That makes me feel better about overnighting it. Ill continue to take the same precautions but I wont hesistate to camp with this current setup. People were calling me and idiot for camping with a heater.
Thanks – would be curious to see what effect wind and vents and heater output have on the CO and O2 levels. I have heard CO can get to you on boats with unfavorable wind conditions or low speeds too. Even people being towed on tubes or wakeboards could be at risk in the right conditions. Would be cool to see some real test results to know what to look out and what to really be worried about.
Thanks – would be curious to see what effect wind and vents and heater output have on the CO and O2 levels. I have heard CO can get to you on boats with unfavorable wind conditions or low speeds too. Even people being towed on tubes or wakeboards could be at risk in the right conditions. Would be cool to see some real test results to know what to look out and what to really be worried about.
Had a buddy get pretty sick up in Canada on a fly in trip a couple years ago. We finally realized it’s because he was back trolling all day and the exhaust from the little 2 stroke was blowing right back on him. It was not good.
<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Adam Steffes wrote:</div>
Thanks – would be curious to see what effect wind and vents and heater output have on the CO and O2 levels. I have heard CO can get to you on boats with unfavorable wind conditions or low speeds too. Even people being towed on tubes or wakeboards could be at risk in the right conditions. Would be cool to see some real test results to know what to look out and what to really be worried about.Had a buddy get pretty sick up in Canada on a fly in trip a couple years ago. We finally realized it’s because he was back trolling all day and the exhaust from the little 2 stroke was blowing right back on him. It was not good.
Had the same thing happen on the way out to Isle Royale once. Buddy had a new canvas installed on his Ranger. Exhaust kept getting sucked into the cockpit of the boat. Had to pull it all down to finish the trip. Weird how vacuum and pressures work…
With out much for research here is what I located from OSHA.
The OSHA PEL for CO is 50 parts per million (ppm). OSHA standards prohibit worker exposure to more than 50 parts of CO gas per million parts of air averaged during an 8-hour time period.
On 4 outings this ice fishing season I have spent 1 night each outing in a hub style house. On one outing I used a Kidde CO tester with the digital readout and it never moved off of zero all night long. Ventilation and several visits outdoors most likely assisted with this reading. On all outings a small Buddy or large Buddy heater was used and the setting was on low. I would guess that cranking the heater up on high would affect the CO levels. A couple of outings I used a Kidde CO tester with out digital read out. The alarm never went off on any of my outings except for when I hit the test button…..
Maybe I need a better unit for testing CO levels?
On my last outing we used a electric heater with a generator to start the evening. With out too much thought put in to this upfront we were a bit surprised on how fast we ran through gas. About half way through the 2nd tank we switched over to the Buddy heater.
I am still tweaking things for overnights in a hub and I appreciate feedback from others.
It takes a lot of CO to set off a household detector (which shows you how having “a little” CO is normal with any sort of combustion, and considered safe at lower levels.
If your home is under 40ppm you’ll never know it.
If household detectors alarmed at 20ppm it would go off everytime you turned the stove on.
When sleeping in a portable, always make sure to have plenty of ventilation. You’ll be fine if your heater is operating normal (burning clean) and you have a household detector.
If it’s throwing out yellow flames don’t use it lol
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Great topic fellas. I work directly with CO poisoning. Read up on Sophia’s law…good info there.
Never sleep with a ventless heater and always use a CO monitor. A low level monitor with a digital display is well worth your life. Typically, a digital display will indicate the highest level recorded.
We give talks yearly to local fire depts and other emergency services about the hazards of CO. If possible, I’ll see if I can share our presentation on here. We also tested several monitors and their response rates.
Be safe. If not…I guarantee we’ll meet!
This one was hard…
One person says its fine to run a ventless heater and another says never do it…well which one is it? Is there a happy medium somewhere with the right amount of air flow etc?
One person says its fine to run a ventless heater and another says never do it…well which one is it? Is there a happy medium somewhere with the right amount of air flow etc?
It’s all up to your discretion and using common sense.
If you crank a heater on high in a small portable all buttoned up and banked…..you’re going to get a dose of CO. If you do it for hours, it could/will kill you (especially if you’re sleeping)
On the other hand, having the heater on low or medium with a vent or two open (and even cracking the bottom of the door on a calm night) is “safe” if you have a household CO detector.
You don’t need it to be 80 degrees in the shack to sleep. Bring a warm sleeping bag and use the heater to keep you from freezing.
Again, it’s all up to you.
If you want to be really safe, consider a vented diesel heater. More and more guys are putting them in their portables (mounting them right into the sled, and cutting an exhaust pipe through the sled)
They’re cheap, light, and from what I’ve heard very reliable. The only real negative is you need to bring a decent sized deep cycle along to keep the fan and fuel pump running, and the fuel pumps make a ticking sound when they’re pumping (some guys wrap the fuel pump in cloth to absorb sound)
I plan on putting one in our new Ice Castle as a backup/supplemental heat source.
They come in all sorts of sizes, here’s a 5kw for example.
One “KW” is equal to 3,400 BTU’s
Search diesel cab heaters and you will find a plethora of options. Some are combined units, other have the tank separate.
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very good info here. i see there is a fad of all these youtubers “ice camping” and i have yet to see one mention the chance of CO2 poisoning. probably too busy hooking virgin subscribers?
One person says its fine to run a ventless heater and another says never do it…well which one is it? Is there a happy medium somewhere with the right amount of air flow etc?
B-man explained it good. We do many things in life that “are not safe” but the results work out. I’ll admit I don’t wear my seat belt 100% of the time but I know what will happen if I don’t. Best practice vs common sense. Be smart. Be safe. Use proper ventilation. Use common sense. Sleep with a CO monitor.
I always get tight in the chest or a head ache with the little buddy heater even with ventilation. I thought it was just my asthma this sure has me thinking. Happened today again after 4 hours on low.
@bman2, will you ice camp in a hub with a big buddy heater, with your boys? If so, can you name which detector(s) you would feel safe relying on. I’ve done it a few times without any detectors. Everything was ok, but I know I took chances I maybe shouldn’t.
I haven’t with them yet (it would be a huge pain in the ass with them lol) but I’ve probably spent 30-40 nights over the years in a portable. I never used to bring a CO detector, but try to remember to now.
All I’ve ever used is a big buddy. Any reputable brand (like Kidde) will be sufficient.
Alkaline batteries don’t like the bitter cold, so make sure the battery is warmed up somewhat and do a test (put it in your pocket, or hang it up higher in the heat, etc)
If the battery is too cold, you’ll get the annoying battery chirp.
Depending on how you have your heater set up, running it on low might actually contribute more to CO levels due to incomplete burn. My portable buddy heater running on low will cause CO levels to build up over time (if vents are not open). Running it on high does not have this issue. My setup is different from most however, as I use aluminum to shield and direct the heat straight up as my buddy heater runs in a milk crate behind my seat in an otter lodge.
I discovered this prior to spending a night in my shack. I kept the heater on high, opened both vents, and had the door near my head partially open. Alarm never went above 0.
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