Time to walk out

I agree, if it comes down to Trump or Clinton I think Trump wins going away. He will hit “presidential” mode as soon as he disposes of Cruz.

I agree with most of the comments here. I think some schools could do a better job, but education starts at home.

Regarding pay, I think 70k was the average and 75k was the mean (half make more, half make less).

125k estimate for St Paul teachers “equivalent” pay equates to working 9 months (75k to 100k) and generous health care, pension, 401k being worth another 25k vs what a typical job in the private sector might be these days.

The big hurdle is getting parents to show up for class ready to make positive changes. Once they are there…there are great ways to make life changing impacts.
https://www.facebook.com/theparentingprofessor/

http://www.theparentingprofessor.com

Dave, if your so jealous about a teachers income/benefits, why don’t you apply for a teaching job, openings are just starting to be posted for next school year.

Also, you should’ve paid better attention in math class, mean and average are the same. Or was that the teachers fault too? They were probably too busy counting all their money.

Ooompa Loompa Doopety Doo, I’ve got another riddle for you

Ooompa Loompa doopety Dee, If you are wise you’ll listen to me

What do you get when you’re kid is a Brat

Pampered and spoiled like a Siamese cat

Blaming the kids is a lie and a shame, You know exactly who’s to blame…

The Mother and the Father

Willie Wonka

If mothers and fathers are to blame then who do you turn to to fix the problem? The thing these kids miss most is structure and accountability. Years ago if you did something wrong in school you paid a price. Today you get a time out. I don’t know that I favor uniforms in school but I do favor a strict dress code where hats aren’t allowed, belts and proper fitting pants are required. Young women dress and look like young ladies instead of hookers. If they can’t learn self respect and respect for others at home then they need to learn it in school.School is more then teaching reading, math, history. It’s where kids grow into adults and learn to be a part of society.

We need to give the power back to the teachers and schools to do the job properly.

And just to be plain, i’m not taking about Blacks and Asians, i’m talking about all race of kids.

DaveB… first of all, Minnesota pays teachers one of the highest levels of any state. Most states are considerably lower. And the twin Cities schools pay even higher further skewing the data. That said they do make a salary and typically have some time in the summer… and maybe some of the teachers here can chime in again but if they didn’t have that time… there might not be ANY teachers. Most teachers I’ve ever known didn’t want to pencil out their pay per hour of work because it would be too depressing. Many teachers take on extra duties like coaching too… again for a small amount of compensation…. not near enough to account for the hours they put in coaching and crap put up with… especially from parents. I bet if you asked 100 teachers why they teach and not 1 would answer… for the money… God bless teachers!

every job has it’s up and downs…. I don’t know many teachers, that at retirement said, “if I had to do it all over, I wouldn’t”…. I don’t know any service managers that wouldn’t say that… Bless ” ALL working people”

I have never felt that teachers were the problem in the schools. I won’t go so far as to say that the kids are free of fault though. Parents are a problem but then that can take us back to the bleeding heart political rules parents are strapped with today regarding what they can and cannot do at home. And the onset of those rules started way back in the 70’s. Consider that now a kid can walk into school and see a counselor and say they are being abused at home just because the parents administer some rules. The cops show up and toss Dad in the slam, run him thru the courts and MAKE HIM APPEAR IN ANGER MANAGEMENT classes, maybe lose a job, just for doing his parenting and the kid not liking it. Am I the only one that sees something wrong with this scenario? This country seriously needs to re-assess some of the laws we have. Parents should be left to deal with their kids behavior when they are not in school in any way that works free from this tyranny that kids on a whim can hand out because they don’t like to be told no. The government should keep their nose out of the home and deal with the dinks when they turn 18.

As far as owning a car, getting a drivers license, dating, dressing appropriately, having cell phones, driving to school, open campus, playing sports, having a job….all of these things should be earned, not handed to them. I wonder how many parents [or former parents] today wish they could take back some of the virtually un-needed toys that they blessed junior with as they stand at the kids grave, killed while driving and texting or driving under the influence at 2:30 in the morning. Just in my home area alone I can recall many such accidents involving teens that come from great families, but who’s kids made bad mistakes after they assured the parents that they do these things. Someone in this thread mentioned trusting the kids…..I think today many kids that their parents say are stellar and trustworthy are only so if they are alone or within eye sight and ear shot of the parents. Peer and social pressure erases a lot of what is taught in the name of common sense and then many parents today simply buy the kids off with electronic goodies, cars and blind trust rather than taking the time to instill on those kids some basic values to life and one of those being that you earn whatever you want and when your reward starts to show up it comes in increments.

The schools and teachers are nothing more than victims of the moral decline this country has fallen prey to since removing prayer and discipline from public schools and the end of the military draft….and I’m not referring to that bogus number system. Get the draft back and eliminate deferments for all but those who have bona fide mental disabilities. If a kid drops out of school, let the mp’s pick him up the next day as his reward, rather than having the idiot fall into a gang and street life. Keep the idiot there for 4 years. Get some discipline back in the schools and I am talking about reasonable discipline but fighting and bullying of any kind need to be treated criminally. And it should involve the parents as far as charges go. We have kids in public schools today who are granted time to pray and who have special restroom facilities for ethnic cleansing after using the toilet. Can that crap. All kids are equal. The only way those kids should have that entitlement is if Christian prayer be brought back into the public school system’s tenets.

I wouldn’t want to be a teacher in a public school nor would I want to be a law enforcement officer. Our jelly soft society today is so full of paltry, petty rules that take away all basic control in the classrooms and today the police cannot do their jobs without having demonstrations full of violence that they [the cops] are ordered not to control.

All of this has been brought to you and me by special interests who have gotten money in politician’s pants pockets. We can blame schools and teachers. We can blame law enforcement and we can blame parents. The media deserves more blame than all of these entities and the government and its laws needs a serious overhaul in order to fix what’s broken right down to the classroom and the teacher.

big_g wrote:

every job has it’s up and downs…. I don’t know many teachers, that at retirement said, “if I had to do it all over, I wouldn’t”…. I don’t know any service managers that wouldn’t say that… Bless ” ALL working people”

I was a service writer for years and can honestly say that I met more idiots during that tenure than I have at any other part of my life. I don’t envy you your job G.

When you started with this…

drifter295 wrote:

Ooompa Loompa Doopety Doo…

… I thought you were going to say something about Trump.

Tom Sawvell wrote:

I have never felt that teachers were the problem in the schools. I won’t go so far as to say that the kids are free of fault though. Parents are a problem but then that can take us back to the bleeding heart political rules parents are strapped with today regarding what they can and cannot do at home. And the onset of those rules started way back in the 70’s. Consider that now a kid can walk into school and see a counselor and say they are being abused at home just because the parents administer some rules. The cops show up and toss Dad in the slam, run him thru the courts and MAKE HIM APPEAR IN ANGER MANAGEMENT classes, maybe lose a job, just for doing his parenting and the kid not liking it. Am I the only one that sees something wrong with this scenario? This country seriously needs to re-assess some of the laws we have. Parents should be left to deal with their kids behavior when they are not in school in any way that works free from this tyranny that kids on a whim can hand out because they don’t like to be told no. The government should keep their nose out of the home and deal with the dinks when they turn 18.

As far as owning a car, getting a drivers license, dating, dressing appropriately, having cell phones, driving to school, open campus, playing sports, having a job….all of these things should be earned, not handed to them. I wonder how many parents [or former parents] today wish they could take back some of the virtually un-needed toys that they blessed junior with as they stand at the kids grave, killed while driving and texting or driving under the influence at 2:30 in the morning. Just in my home area alone I can recall many such accidents involving teens that come from great families, but who’s kids made bad mistakes after they assured the parents that they do these things. Someone in this thread mentioned trusting the kids…..I think today many kids that their parents say are stellar and trustworthy are only so if they are alone or within eye sight and ear shot of the parents. Peer and social pressure erases a lot of what is taught in the name of common sense and then many parents today simply buy the kids off with electronic goodies, cars and blind trust rather than taking the time to instill on those kids some basic values to life and one of those being that you earn whatever you want and when your reward starts to show up it comes in increments.

You bring up some great reasons to educate parents and teachers how to become more effective and efficient with young people. The concept of ‘discipline’ is tough to wrap our heads around. It becomes challenging to not be swayed by how we were disciplined as kids. Objectivity becomes difficult.

Discipline is a very tough issue to tackle. In my classroom for the most part there are few discipline problems. All the students know where they stand with me. I feel that if I provide a very consistent base of rules and follow them consistently the students respect that. I have found that no matter where your line is the students will find it and hover right around it. I am not a disciplinarian and the teachers who are in my district in my opinion do not get as much out of their students as others do. The students that I have a problem with in class are the ones that either have the support of their parents for pushing the rules or the ones that have no parent involvement. If I had to choose between the two I would take the student that does not have parent support at home. Many times when you get to know them they are not bad kids they are just making bad choices. With no one at home helping them make positive choices.

Now the kid who sits in class and knows their parent will back them no matter what they do, they can be a nightmare. For example I had a female student with a low cut shirt both top and bottom with a thong pulled up so you could see it. Very inappropriate, myself being a male teacher no way I was going to address that. Thankfully I had a female Paraprofessional in my room. I asked her to get and administrator to address the girls clothing. She did and administrator also talked with the girl. This was in the morning and before lunch her mother was at school raising holy ruckus. Defending her daughter saying she has every right to expose midriff, cleavage and any undergarment that she as a parent deems appropriate. She claimed that because we are not parents that we cannot judge appropriateness of a students dress.
Its debatable that her dress was a distraction to the other students (they deal with her on a daily basis). What was not debatable was the social appropriateness of what she was doing. We teachers like it or not will help shape what is socially appropriate for many youth. We would love to not have a part in this.
One other thing to consider with these students that create chaos is that chaos is comfort. When chaos at home is all you know the quite calm of a classroom actually causes anxiety for some. The last six years I have taught special education at a Juvenal Center. Most of the students I now get are a product of a broken home life. The parents are not involved and when they are they are not teaching positive life skills. My students are the worst of the worst but when you get to know them and they get to know you very rarely do I have behavior problems in the classroom. They can be very enjoyable individuals. Part of that (but not all) is that the stress of home life and negative influences are gone.
I don’t know if my ramblings have a point but I just want to point our a little of what I see and how much of the functions of student behaviors are out of a teachers control. No matter how strict, militaristic, or payer based our classrooms are.

big_g wrote:

every job has it’s up and downs…. I don’t know many teachers, that at retirement said, “if I had to do it all over, I wouldn’t”…. I don’t know any service managers that wouldn’t say that… Bless ” ALL working people”

That’s because any teacher that teaches until retirement loves what they are doing… its not about the money and that is the point that I’m trying to make. Yes you could apply this to many service positions… but this thread is about teachers

Derreck Moen wrote:

Discipline is a very tough issue to tackle. In my classroom for the most part there are few discipline problems. All the students know where they stand with me. I feel that if I provide a very consistent base of rules and follow them consistently the students respect that. I have found that no matter where your line is the students will find it and hover right around it. I am not a disciplinarian and the teachers who are in my district in my opinion do not get as much out of their students as others do. The students that I have a problem with in class are the ones that either have the support of their parents for pushing the rules or the ones that have no parent involvement. If I had to choose between the two I would take the student that does not have parent support at home. Many times when you get to know them they are not bad kids they are just making bad choices. With no one at home helping them make positive choices.

Now the kid who sits in class and knows their parent will back them no matter what they do, they can be a nightmare. For example I had a female student with a low cut shirt both top and bottom with a thong pulled up so you could see it. Very inappropriate, myself being a male teacher no way I was going to address that. Thankfully I had a female Paraprofessional in my room. I asked her to get and administrator to address the girls clothing. She did and administrator also talked with the girl. This was in the morning and before lunch her mother was at school raising holy ruckus. Defending her daughter saying she has every right to expose midriff, cleavage and any undergarment that she as a parent deems appropriate. She claimed that because we are not parents that we cannot judge appropriateness of a students dress.
Its debatable that her dress was a distraction to the other students (they deal with her on a daily basis). What was not debatable was the social appropriateness of what she was doing. We teachers like it or not will help shape what is socially appropriate for many youth. We would love to not have a part in this.
One other thing to consider with these students that create chaos is that chaos is comfort. When chaos at home is all you know the quite calm of a classroom actually causes anxiety for some. The last six years I have taught special education at a Juvenal Center. Most of the students I now get are a product of a broken home life. The parents are not involved and when they are they are not teaching positive life skills. My students are the worst of the worst but when you get to know them and they get to know you very rarely do I have behavior problems in the classroom. They can be very enjoyable individuals. Part of that (but not all) is that the stress of home life and negative influences are gone.
I don’t know if my ramblings have a point but I just want to point our a little of what I see and how much of the functions of student behaviors are out of a teachers control. No matter how strict, militaristic, or payer based our classrooms are.

Your points have merit and are delivered with balance. I believe them to to spot on. Thanks for the insight. In my classroom, I had one guideline: Feel free to do whatever you wish; unless it creates a problem. My students knew that I would deal with each case in a unique and unprescribed way.

Tim J wrote:

Dave, if your so jealous about a teachers income/benefits, why don’t you apply for a teaching job, openings are just starting to be posted for next school year.

Also, you should’ve paid better attention in math class, mean and average are the same. Or was that the teachers fault too? They were probably too busy counting all their money.

I didn’t say their pay was too much or too little, I simply stated facts. Apologies, I meant to say median income.

I work for a privately held, self supporting government agency. My comments on the value of their excellent benefits are from experience, not from jealousy.

A couple thoughts – I would surmise that one of the big reasons the St Paul teachers have such a high salary, in relation to there districts, is to keep them from walking off the job permanently.

My wife is a 2nd grade teacher in a first tier suburb, and the problem kids she deals with in her class are unreal. She teaches because she lives kids. I keep encouraging her to look into another district, but she’s loyal.

In the meantime, she is accusedan of disrespecting parents when she calls to discuss her students’ problems, she gets ZERO support from her district with discipline or support staff. Her school is supposed to have a minimum of 5 aides. How many do they have? Two.

It’s a no win. And if these St Paul teachers walk out in protest, the media will still glorify BLM and then vilify these teachers because they only have their views and experiences due to their own racism.

DaveB wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Tim J wrote:</div>
Dave, if your so jealous about a teachers income/benefits, why don’t you apply for a teaching job, openings are just starting to be posted for next school year.

Also, you should’ve paid better attention in math class, mean and average are the same. Or was that the teachers fault too? They were probably too busy counting all their money.

I didn’t say their pay was too much or too little, I simply stated facts. Apologies, I meant to say median income.

I work for a privately held, self supporting government agency. My comments on the value of their excellent benefits are from experience, not from jealousy.

My point is, what does a teacher’s income even have to do with this discussion? Where I teach, I wouldn’t come close the 75k mark until I’m 30 years in and get my masters, and I’m in the north metro. I’m okay with that, not why I teach. The only time I get upset about it is when people criticize my income/benefits/time off.

I agree with everyone else who has stated the parents need to be held responsible for their child’s education.

snowflake wrote:

One week of those little shits and that was over. Why the heck would any teacher babysit a bunch on little disrespectful brats. I wanted to slap the crap out of half of them so bad.

The public thanks you for not becoming a teacher as well.

Tim J wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>DaveB wrote:</div>

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Tim J wrote:</div>
Dave, if your so jealous about a teachers income/benefits, why don’t you apply for a teaching job, openings are just starting to be posted for next school year.

Also, you should’ve paid better attention in math class, mean and average are the same. Or was that the teachers fault too? They were probably too busy counting all their money.

I didn’t say their pay was too much or too little, I simply stated facts. Apologies, I meant to say median income.

I work for a privately held, self supporting government agency. My comments on the value of their excellent benefits are from experience, not from jealousy.

My point is, what does a teacher’s income even have to do with this discussion? Where I teach, I wouldn’t come close the 75k mark until I’m 30 years in and get my masters, and I’m in the north metro. I’m okay with that, not why I teach. The only time I get upset about it is when people criticize my income/benefits/time off.

I agree with everyone else who has stated the parents need to be held responsible for their child’s education.

I never criticized the pay of teachers.