The ever shifting inconvenient truth

Ryan Wilson wrote:

Tesla (Nikola, not Elon Musk…) had clean, free, global, wireless energy figured out in the 1920’s. Unfortunately, J.P. Morgan decided to fund Edison instead because “his” works created profit, not prosperity. Tesla was a true gift to humanity and most of our modern technology comes straight from 100 years ago. If you’re reading this on an electronic device, you can thank Tesla for that.

Climate change is real. It has happened since the creation of the climate. However, the RATE at which climate change happens is what is at question. Has human involvement increased the rate at which the climate is changing? The answer…. is an astonishing yes. The rates in which the climate has changed in the last 100 years is what we should observe over thousands of years, if at all.

Dispensing trillions upon trillions of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere beyond what the planet naturally produces is a problem. Why do you think they called it a “green house” gas in the 90’s? Because, that’s exactly what happens in a green house when additional carbon dioxide is introduced. That’s why you can have a warm greenhouse (made of glass) capable of growing food in the middle of winter. The suns radition is heating the carbon dioxide. Without anywhere for the excess co2 to go (key word: excess) it remains in the greenhouse (earth with an atmosphere) and continues to build up.

In a way, you could also think of how the suns radiation can warm up our ice shacks without any man made heaters on a nice sunny day in below freezing temperatures. We are the earth sitting in our little atmosphere. That’s why we crack the windows when it gets too warm. Unfortunately, earth can’t crack a window. So, as humans, we have to do our part in reducing co2 emmusions so the earth stops heating up.

As for, “then why is it colder this year?”. Well, think of it as a bath tub. Say the water got cold and you’re adding fresh, hot water. The tub gets full, but when you get back in, the water isn’t completely mixed and you can still feel a cold spot. Well, that cold spot is this years “cold winter”. After 30 minutes it gets cold again so you add more hot water. You keep doing this but after a while, the rate at which your tub water fluctuates temp keeps happening quicker and quicker until you reach the point where you just end up taking a continuous hot shower so hot water keeps coming in and you get no cold water. Humans burning oil is like letting the hot water run. Eventually, the dramatic cold spots will disappear but it doesn’t negate their existence now. Notice what the oceans are doing now with fluctuating temperatures that’s destroyed the Great Barrier Reef.

In the end, it all comes down to making money and burning oil makes money. A lot of it. Tesla knew this 100 years ago… and so did Morgan and Edison.

My god, the bathtub ? You come up with that doozie on your own ?? Adding hot water to a bathtub, will not “create” cold spots… they may make some spots “feel colder” but it will not lower the temperature, that is impossible. Having cold snaps as we just had, are measured by a thermometer, not a scientific big toe in your bathtub. Posts like this make me go… “I have a bridge for sale…”

big_g wrote:

What makes our resources today “inefficient” posted by some as the true definition here ? Because somebody told them they were…

Which of these appear less efficient and less potential impact to the environment?

These don’t need to be the answer but how could a several hundred year old energy source be the most efficient? How?

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Wind and Solar are inconsistent.

big_g wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Ryan Wilson wrote:</div>
Tesla (Nikola, not Elon Musk…) had clean, free, global, wireless energy figured out in the 1920’s. Unfortunately, J.P. Morgan decided to fund Edison instead because “his” works created profit, not prosperity. Tesla was a true gift to humanity and most of our modern technology comes straight from 100 years ago. If you’re reading this on an electronic device, you can thank Tesla for that.

Climate change is real. It has happened since the creation of the climate. However, the RATE at which climate change happens is what is at question. Has human involvement increased the rate at which the climate is changing? The answer…. is an astonishing yes. The rates in which the climate has changed in the last 100 years is what we should observe over thousands of years, if at all.

Dispensing trillions upon trillions of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere beyond what the planet naturally produces is a problem. Why do you think they called it a “green house” gas in the 90’s? Because, that’s exactly what happens in a green house when additional carbon dioxide is introduced. That’s why you can have a warm greenhouse (made of glass) capable of growing food in the middle of winter. The suns radition is heating the carbon dioxide. Without anywhere for the excess co2 to go (key word: excess) it remains in the greenhouse (earth with an atmosphere) and continues to build up.

In a way, you could also think of how the suns radiation can warm up our ice shacks without any man made heaters on a nice sunny day in below freezing temperatures. We are the earth sitting in our little atmosphere. That’s why we crack the windows when it gets too warm. Unfortunately, earth can’t crack a window. So, as humans, we have to do our part in reducing co2 emmusions so the earth stops heating up.

As for, “then why is it colder this year?”. Well, think of it as a bath tub. Say the water got cold and you’re adding fresh, hot water. The tub gets full, but when you get back in, the water isn’t completely mixed and you can still feel a cold spot. Well, that cold spot is this years “cold winter”. After 30 minutes it gets cold again so you add more hot water. You keep doing this but after a while, the rate at which your tub water fluctuates temp keeps happening quicker and quicker until you reach the point where you just end up taking a continuous hot shower so hot water keeps coming in and you get no cold water. Humans burning oil is like letting the hot water run. Eventually, the dramatic cold spots will disappear but it doesn’t negate their existence now. Notice what the oceans are doing now with fluctuating temperatures that’s destroyed the Great Barrier Reef.

In the end, it all comes down to making money and burning oil makes money. A lot of it. Tesla knew this 100 years ago… and so did Morgan and Edison.

My god, the bathtub ? You come up with that doozie on your own ?? Adding hot water to a bathtub, will not “create” cold spots… they may make some spots “feel colder” but it will not lower the temperature, that is impossible. Having cold snaps as we just had, are measured by a thermometer, not a scientific big toe in your bathtub. Posts like this make me go… “I have a bridge for sale…”

You really don’t understand how think outside the Fox do you. You also don’t seem to understand what “kind of like” implies. I commend you for actually reading all of that though. However, if your brain can’t connect the correlating properties between temperature behavior in water current a jet streams, then perhaps what I wrote was just too much for you to handle to begin with. It was an example showing how overall prolonged temperature fluctuations of a confined space (climate) can react to human involvement. If you had a clue on the subject at hand, you would have understood this and not even bothered posting the topic. I stand by my example.

Climate change isn’t a political issue. It’s an educational issue.

We live in a right now, bigger, better, faster, “it’s got a hemi”, world. No one is willing to give up any comforts. Pop used to be bottled in glass pints that were returned, washed, and re-filled. Now we must drink from a plastic bottle that will NEVER decompose. Need a drink of water? Another bottle. Climate change is real. Maybe warmer, maybe colder but definitely more extreme. We had fishable ice on Lake Erie before New Years. That hasn’t happened in over 30 years. The last two seasons were a bust and the boats never stopped running. Use less and reduce the foot print. I look at it like fishing. I rarely ever keep a limit. Others will break the law, double dip and poach. That doesn’t make it right. I save some for another day.

Eelpoutguy wrote:

Wind and Solar are inconsistent.

Yes, very. They need some development, badly. As long as oil, gas and coal keep getting shoved down our throats, it’s going to continue to be a snails pace to get something reliable and efficient. To be clear, it doesn’t have to be 100% solar, wind, hydro, or nuclear. If you can reduce the amount of fossil fuel for energy by 75% in the next 50 years, how could anyone argue that it isn’t worth it? We should’ve started this process 50 years ago and would’ve been been there by now.

We already know how the oil and gas giants controls their volume to boost profits. Isn’t that a sign that something is wrong?

I’m not sure if Brian was joking about electric cars creating more pollution than a gas car, while it may be true, it’s only because we are married to coal when we don’t have to be. I don’t get to choose how my electricity is made.

We still need to take a close look at all the alternative energy sources to make sure they are and remain environmentally sound and efficient.

Glad this came up again.

I’ve been holding my breath until some real historical data came in from glacier cores taken from 800,000 freaking years ago. Now that’s a reference.

See for yourselves.
800,000bc yr chart to 0

Last 2000…

nhamm wrote:

Glad this came up again.

I’ve been holding my breath until some real historical data came in from glacier cores taken from 800,000 freaking years ago. Now that’s a reference.

See for yourselves.
800,000bc yr chart to 0

Last 2000…

Cow farts…I blame cow farts!

Some day the work of online forums will bring great change.

Some topics I see in forums are just a joke.

I’m also curious how many of you have solar panels for your house. I’m no alarmist, but when and if I can afford it, I’ll install it. It’s a no brainer…I think. I’ve heard from people that have them it pays for itself and you can virtually eliminate your electric bill.

nhamm wrote:

I’m not sure if Brian was joking about electric cars creating more pollution than a gas car, while it may be true, it’s only because we are married to coal when we don’t have to be. I don’t get to choose how my electricity is made.

I wasn’t joking. Coal is the problem.

I need to break down Thorium liquid salt reactors for you guys…the only reason we’re using heavy water reactors is that Plutonium is a bi product that our government need(ed) to make nuclear warheads.

If this type of reactor has a power outage, they shut down by physics not by trying to keep the rods cool with water.

Pretty much any mine in the world has enough Thorium as a bi product to power the WORLD for years. And the waste wouldn’t need to be sent to Yucka mountain.

It’s much more safe, much less expensive and China will have it long before us because of our big money.

mplspug wrote:

Some day the work of online forums will bring great change.

Some topics I see in forums are just a joke.

I’m also curious how many of you have solar panels for your house. I’m no alarmist, but when and if I can afford it, I’ll install it. It’s a no brainer…I think. I’ve heard from people that have them it pays for itself and you can virtually eliminate your electric bill.

It’s heavily subsidized.
Google “solar panel installers in my area” go on any of their websites and it can’t tell you fast enough all the incentives you can receive on installation and KWH.

Minnesota Solar Energy Incentives
Xcel Solar Rewards (expires end of 2018)
– PV: $.08 / kWh produced (paid annually over 10 years)
– size: 20 kw-DC or less (not over 120% on-site consumption)

Minnesota Power – SolarSense Solar Rebate Program
– Increased allocation to $530,000 for 2017 and approved through 2019.
– Upfront rebate is based on production estimate including tilt, azimuth and shading.
– Base incentive is $0.94/kWh for 2017 and is First Come, First Served.
– System size up to 20kw DC.

Investment Tax Credit (ITC)
– PV: 30% thru 2019, 26% through 2020, 22% through 2021, 10% there after
– (Residential Renewable Tax Credit) PV: 30% through 2019, 26% through 2020, 22% through 2021, none after

Owatonna Public Utilities – Solar Rebate Program
– With the Conserve and $ave Program
– $.50 per installed watt ($500 per kW) of solar up to 10 kW systems.
– Requires interconnection agreement, shading analysis, energy analysis, and invoice for the cost of the system.

Rochester Public Utilities – Solar Rebate Program
– With the Conserve and $ave Program, same as the Owatonna rebate program.
– $.50 per installed watt ($500 per kW) of solar up to 10 kW systems.
– Requires interconnection agreement, shading analysis, energy analysis, and invoice for the cost of the system.

Austin Utilities – Solar Rebate Program
– With the Conserve and $ave Program, same as the Owatonna rebate program.
– $.50 per installed watt ($500 per kW) of solar up to 10 kW systems.
– Requires interconnection agreement, shading analysis, energy analysis, and invoice for the cost of the system.

Brainerd Public Utilities – Renewable Energy Incentive
– Rebates at $2/watt installed, up to $4,000
– Systems limited to 40 kW.

Moorhead Public Service Utility – Renewable Energy Incentive
– Up to $1,500 per kW installed.
– Applicable systems must meet Moorhead Public Service Interconnection standards.

Shakopee Public Utilities – Commercial and Industrial Energy Efficiency Rebate Program
– $1.25/ installed watt rebates for commercial Shakopee Public Utilities customers.
– Maximum $5,000 per business account.

New Ulm Public Utilities – Solar Electric Rebate Program
– $1 per watt, for new systems up to 40 kW.
– Residential maximum rebate is $2,000

Dakota Electric Solar Installation Rebate
– Rebate of $.50 per watt for installed capacity.
– Does not exceed $4,000
– Rebate is credited to monthly bill as $.08 per kwh produced up to the rebate amount or 10 years, whichever occurs first.

Grand Rapids Public Utilities Commission
– PV: $.50 / watt (max $4,000)
– paid by $.08 / kWh over 10 years (or until max is reached)

2017 Made in Minnesota Solar Pv Incentives

For the forth year, the Minnesota Department of Commerce is managing the Made in Minnesota solar PV incentive.

2014 was the first year for people in the Xcel, Ottertail, Minnesota Power or Alliant Energy utilities to get an incentive for installing solar pv on their homes, in businesses, or government buildings.

Now, for the forth year, there is a total of 15 million dollars up for grabs to be split between residential solar PV installations, and commerical, non profit and government. Everyone who applies for the Made in Minnesota incentive will be entered into a lottery if the demand for incentive money exceeds supply. Each applicant who receives a Made in Minnesota solar pv incentive will have up to one year to have their project installed. The application period goes from January 1 – February 28, 2017.

Made-In-Minnesota (expires end of 2023)
– PV: production based (varies by module manufacturer)
– size: Residential: up to 10kw DC
– Non-Residential: up to 40kw DC
- Federal Business Energy

The 2017 rates for Made in Minnesota are as follows.
iTek 295w and 300w MiM Modules:
For-Profit Businesses – $0.11/kWh (10 years)

Non-Profit Organizations – $0.14/kWh (10 years)

Residential – $0.18/kWh (10 years)

Heliene 260w, 290w and 320w MiM Modules:
For-Profit Businesses – $0.10/kWh (10 years)

Non-Profit Organizations – $0.14/kWh (10 years)

Residential – $0.16/kWh (10 years)

More information can be found at the link below: https://mn.gov/commerce/industries/energy/solar/mim/

More information can be found at the link below: https://mn.gov/commerce/industries/energy/solar/mim/

The
oceans are sinking

Ryan Wilson….thanks for your thoughtful presentation of ideas.

Sure, it easy to kill the messenger. How many here have actually
read anything that Al Gore said? Not many. It is easier to take
someone else’s opinion or talking points as fact. Not long
ago almost everyone thought the earth was flat. Those that
claimed otherwise were insulted and ridiculed.

I used to take the last week of October off of work because
that is when the sloughs and ponds, in western Minnesota
froze over. The migration was full on. Now, most of complain
that the season ends before the migration comes through.

Don’t take someone’s word on what is happening in climate
change. Look around…not your house but educate yourself.
Hell, use Google and check out climate change looks like
in other places in the world.

tweed

It takes this…

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to make these….

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google petroleum products…. educate, then propagate.

There is no proof that man is warming the planet. In fact the planet is slowly cooling. The only reason that there is man made warming is because of the adjustments made by man to historical data. It is very well documented.

“Look around and see how the planet is changing.” Yes please do. How many 90 plus degree days do we have? When is the last time you have seen 100 degrees? They were quite common decades ago.

https://realclimatescience.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/2017-12-29051055_shadow-1024×954.png

Some more real data that is not “adjusted”

https://realclimatescience.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/2017-12-29051133_shadow-1024×937.png

Settled science requires constant data tampering.

https://realclimatescience.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Image706_shadow.png

Warming, not warming. Doesn’t matter. The only thing that matters is we progress towards other energy options. What reasoning you want to assign to that is OK.

This simply is another case where numbers can be bent to reflect whatever you want to see.

That’s a hundred years DTW. Not even a blip on the radar screen of modern day earth, therefore that data is completely irrelevant. The more we get rid of those graphs that make issuesike this seem like knee jerk reactions the better.

Carbon dioxide is going up at an unforeseen rate in the atmosphere that is catalogued in my graphs for the last 800,000 years. When carbon dioxide rises to certain levels certain things happen, that’s science, not opinion.

Like I said before years ago I saw a documentary or news clip or something that had scientists drilling thousands of cores out these glaciers to get this data, now it’s here. I’ve been waiting to form an opinion until now.

The AGW (anthropogenic global warming) theory needs to stand up to the scientific method. Predictions this theory has made in the last 20 years has been proven wrong.(Ice Cap Melting, Oceans rising, Increase hurricanes and forest fires, Temperature increase, More Droughts) Its not up to me or others to prove AGW doesn’t exist its up to the people who believe in AGW to prove the earth is warming. so far this theory has failed.

I find it funny how the same “Scientists” in the 1970’s claimed the earth was moving into another Ice age. When that did not happen and the grant money ended, it shifted to global warming. Same scientists. Hmmm

ppb = parts per billion… should have made them ppz = parts per zillion and the graphs would be Al Gore dramatic. I do not dispute climate change, who the hell would ? I do dispute those who say they have “scientific proof of man made” with their snapshot of our eco systems that we have.. 800,000 years is not even a blip in time btw.

Taken from geocraft.com

CO2 in our atmosphere has been increasing steadily for the last 18,000 years– long before humans invented smokestacks ( Figure 1). Unless you count campfires and intestinal gas, man played no role in the pre-industrial increases.

As illustrated in this chart of Ice Core data from the Soviet Station Vostok in Antarctica, CO2 concentrations in earth’s atmosphere move with temperature. Both temperatures and CO2 have been on the increase for 18,000 years. Interestingly, CO2 lags an average of about 800 years behind the temperature changes– confirming that CO2 is not a primary driver of the temperature changes (9).

Incidentally, earth’s temperature and CO2 levels today have reached levels similar to a previous interglacial cycle of 120,000 – 140,000 years ago. From beginning to end this cycle lasted about 20,000 years. This is known as the Eemian Interglacial Period and the earth returned to a full-fledged ice age immediately afterward

Prediction… 100% chance a thread like this appears when the temp drops below zero.

Its amazing how many scientists are on this site. Now only if some of them had a way to fix Mille Lacs…

youngfry wrote:

Prediction… 100% chance a thread like this appears when the temp drops below zero.

Its amazing how many scientists are on this site. Now only if some of them had a way to fix Mille Lacs…

Scientists are the ones who broke Mille Lacs. But, thats a hole different fight.

sarcasm…

I don’t litter and I recycle. To be honest, I don’t really pay attention to all the climate change stuff, not saying that’s right. However, someone in this thread said it’s not political, take the blinders off.
I don’t put much thought into why it’s cold or hot out, I just dress accordingly.

Eelpoutguy wrote:

I don’t understand. If all of Congress agree on nuclear power, why are we not moving forward with it?

The problem is that small NIMBY groups and individual states like Nevada are allowed to block projects that are in the best interest of the entire nation. It’s a like a bad episode of Star Trek where the whole ship is put at risk to save one person.

Terrapower is interesting, for sure, but just wait until we try to actually BUILD one over here. All the NIMBYs come out of the woodwork and with the help of their stooges in State governments, the whole project gets shut down and delayed to death with red tape.

The only way modern nuclear power will ever go forward is if the federal government forces the states to build X number of plants per population unit as a matter of national energy security. Any state that delays or refuses would lose all federal funds for all projects until they comply. It’ll never happen, of course, but that shows what it would take to actually get it done.

We are currently resting on our energy laurels because fracking has made natural gas cheap and available. In the public’s mind, there’s no need to do anything and most Americans are incapable of thinking about anything beyond what they’re having tonight for dinner. Getting people to understand that if you want reliable, safe, and affordable power 30 years in the future, you have to start NOW is a total lost cause.

Grouse

TheFamousGrouse wrote:

We are currently resting on our energy laurels because fracking has made natural gas cheap and available. In the public’s mind, there’s no need to do anything and most Americans are incapable of thinking about anything beyond what they’re having tonight for dinner. Getting people to understand that if you want reliable, safe, and affordable power 30 years in the future, you have to start NOW is a total lost cause.

we have a winner.

The only way we’ll ever make any progress is through through federal and state mandates. Your vote counts next November.