ammo

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I magine there are going to be plenty of challenges to this before anything would go into effect as this is so stupid. But hey, you never know.

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I have to believe you are right. I have little doubt a proposal such as this will not pass. What scares me however is that people see something to heinous as this and react then feel maybe less threatened when a comparatively “minor” proposal is made. Maybe like gas prices. People were enraged when they were over $4 a gallon but when they were falling everyone felt great when they hovered around $2.75 for awhile. True it is cheaper than $4 but it is no where near a fair price even at that.

I doubt there is a single, responsible, gun owner out there who is opposed to actions that will truly impact gun crime. But so called deterrents have proven to be useless. It’s just too hard to predict when or where the next violent crime might take place.

WHen I took my concealed carry class, the instructor made one comment that I liked. He said “good people buy their guns and use them responsibly. Bad people commit crimes with gun. Where do bad people get their guns?……they get them from good people that bought them.” I believe this to be true. Serial numbering ammo will not prevent a single crime. ZERO. It is already a crime to murder someone…….and that is not stopping it from happening….

I am very, very fearful of what rights will be chipped away in the next four years. OUr rights will NOT be taken in a single swoop, but instead they will be taken bit by bit and the public will let it happen with the “it doesn’t affect me, so it is not a big deal” attitude.

Let’s face it, the bulk of the little restrictions do NOT affect the majority, so the majority does not step forward to oppose………..bit by bit, the times are a changin’.

Tim

The idea behind micro stamping is to cripple the ammo industry by slowing consumer purchases. Some don’t believe this to be true. I do.

Speaking of laws that have no impact let’s look at the Klintonian AWB of 1994. I’d be pleased to read some credible data that shows a sharp decrease in violent crimes when the ban went into place. And of course, it goes without saying, I’d want to see the same credible data showing the sharp increase after the ban expired. FWIW I won’t be holding my breath.

I don’t remember what issue but in the last few months NAHC published in North American Hunter the measures being taken to fight this legislation.

I think a key point in this topic is to look at who’s behind it and why do they want it? Why the interest in such a law? Do they have any history in supporting my interests or not?

When we look at legistlation and it’s origins, we usually learn of it’s intended direction because of the originators principles.

I know the “left” want to protect any and all from any possibility of evil entering anyone’s lives so it would appear to be a good thing…..right? I know the “right” sees an infringement on rights without sufficient proof that creating restrictive measures will actually produce the utopian goal. Both……have good points and good intentions. My problem is this……. neither system or belief will ever be 100% efficient at obtaining the desired result. So why can’t the “left” stop eating away at the ultimate goal and the “right” make an effort to appease the “left’s” ideal through other means?

In the debate of leaving ammo on a truck dash, both argments have merit. The person resposible for criminal activity is the criminal. However, aren’t criminals really just opportunists? So why is the moron, opportuning criminal behavior, blameless? This is why the responsibility still needs to be accepted and practiced religiously by the rightful, law-abiding, property owner. It’s often our carelessness that leads to “opportunity” and we need to be vigilant about it. Does it cost me more? Yes. Do I get inconvenienced some? Yes. But I need to share the interest of protecting those I’ve never met as well as those I love more than life.

According to the NAH article, the people behind this legistlation are notorious for obtaining every measure possible to ban firearms in this country. It would seem that the measure itself is not a big deal but what happens if the ammo industry gets strained to the point of collapse? By any cause? What if things get priced too high for the average person to justify the expenditure? What if qualifications get to the point of not being worth the effort due to lack of priviledge or personal gain?

This is the elephant getting eaten one bite at a time. Without having any substantial proof of it’s necessity, why does this law need to be passed? What’s the real story? Is “because” a good enough reason to let it slide? I don’t think so.

I still think that both ideologies need to work together respectfully and try to find ways to keep each other happy but if there’s really no warranting of new legislation, I don’t care who is being rooted for, it doesn’t make sense to just lay down and say, “what’s the harm?”. Everything is on it’s way to something or somewhere and I don’t like the way this one smells. In spite of loving fish, I don’t want to smell anything fishy.

Before we lay down, let’s find out what truly warrants the need for such legislation.

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WHen I took my concealed carry class, the instructor made one comment that I liked. He said “good people buy their guns and use them responsibly. Bad people commit crimes with gun. Where do bad people get their guns?……they get them from good people that bought them.” I believe this to be true. Serial numbering ammo will not prevent a single crime. ZERO. It is already a crime to murder someone…….and that is not stopping it from happening….

I am very, very fearful of what rights will be chipped away in the next four years. OUr rights will NOT be taken in a single swoop, but instead they will be taken bit by bit and the public will let it happen with the “it doesn’t affect me, so it is not a big deal” attitude.

Let’s face it, the bulk of the little restrictions do NOT affect the majority, so the majority does not step forward to oppose………..bit by bit, the times are a changin’.

Tim

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I couldn’t have said it better.

G-
Refer to the above.

Chris, how did they get their guns from good people… doesn’t sound like the good guy was very “accountable” or “responsible” with his guns if the bad guy got them. Fortunately, guns are serial numbered, so authorities can figure out who the numbskull was, that was not responsible with his guns and let the bad guy have them.

Chris, see above

big G

I’d bet they STOLE them which is a CRIME. I wonder if the guns were locked up and the CRIMINAL broke into the storage device and committed the same CRIME are they more GUILTY than if they simply had to open a closed but not locked door and grabbed them from inside? Yeah the serial numbers are only going to allow a trace if the gun is registered. To my knowledge Wisconsin doesn’t require registration and hopefully never does. Those numbers do NOTHING to show who committed the CRIME, just who owned the gun.

This reminds me of something I hear old timers say sometimes. Locks on doors only keep honest people honest. They do nothing to prevent burglars from robbing your house. A lot of truth in that I suspect. One more thing a locked door does. Gives me an additional few seconds to grab my gun to meet the intruder on my terms.

Bottom line. Concentrate on prosecuting CRIMINALS for the CRIMES they committed and leave the law abiding people home. There is enough CRIME and CRIMINALS out there that there is no need to blame the guy that didn’t do it!

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Chris, how did they get their guns from good people… doesn’t sound like the good guy was very “accountable” or “responsible” with his guns if the bad guy got them. Fortunately, guns are serial numbered, so authorities can figure out who the numbskull was, that was not responsible with his guns and let the bad guy have them.

Chris, see above

big G

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Wow, did I really read that???????

Let’s hold the guy accountable and responsible when he never committed a crime? Good idea. Let’s also prosecute the cute college coed for working out and having a nice figure and then getting raped. She should be accountable for causing the bad guy to become attracted to her. She should have gotten fat and gross to prevent that poor bad guy from doing bad things…………wow.

Tim

Wow, did I really read that ? A college Co-Ed ? Quite a leap, seems like the same thing doesn’t it ? Do you think they should be able to use DNA from sperm to locate a suspect ? Same thing as a serial number in my opinion. Who would argue that DNA should not be used in a rape ???

big G

My comments were directed at your opinion of holding the LAW ABIDING gun owner accountable for being robbed. I feel the CRIMINAL that robbed the gun is the guilty party – and the gun owner who BROKE NO LAWS should not be held accountable. My comments regarding the coed were along those lines. It seems to me that holding a gun owner responsible for being robbed is like holding a rape victim accountable for attracting a rapist.

I did not address serial numbers on guns or relate them to DNA in my post.

Tim

Timmy, it is aimed at making ammo purchasers “accountable” for the ammo they purchase. My point is, I doubt it will deter many crimes from happening, if any, but what it will do is give the people trying to solve crimes, one more weapon to help take these types out of society. And again, I see too many people that are less than careful with their ammo. Laying it on the dash of pickup truck, is not cool in my opinion. Right now, there is no way to figure out where a specific bullet or casing came from, serial numbering it, will prvide that info. If you use and safeguard your ammo, the only way it will affect you, is in the price. If it’s a pricing issue, then say so.

big G

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Timmy, it is aimed at making ammo purchasers “accountable” for the ammo they purchase. My point is, I doubt it will deter many crimes from happening, if any, but what it will do is give the people trying to solve crimes, one more weapon to help take these types out of society. And again, I see too many people that are less than careful with their ammo. Laying it on the dash of pickup truck, is not cool in my opinion. Right now, there is no way to figure out where a specific bullet or casing came from, serial numbering it, will prvide that info. If you use and safeguard your ammo, the only way it will affect you, is in the price. If it’s a pricing issue, then say so.

big G

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It has been proven time and time again in country after country…….registration of weapons and ammo does NOTHING in deterring or SOLVING crimes. Nothing. Zero, zilch, nadda…….never has, never will. People that shoot other people generally DO NOT legally acquire their weapons or ammo. They are criminals, they don’t follow the rules. To make me and other law abiders follow extra rules and jump through extra hoops is folly at best.

One more restriction, tax, tracking tool, is nothing more than one more tiny step towards more gun control. IT IS a pricing issue, but it is also much more than that. It is another step in controlling law abiding gun owners and one more step in attempting to strip us of our rights. It has been publicly stated by the gun control zealots such as the brady campaign members: there are too many guns, so the only way to control them is to tax ammo so high that nobody can afford it. This is the first step – a step that I am unwilling to take.

As far as laying a box of ammo on the dash of your truck…big deal. The CRIMINAL is the one who steals the ammo, not the guy who left it visible. Stiffer penalties and PROSECUTION of crimes like theft are the answer – not punishing the law abiding peple. Texas has the right idea: the easiest way to keep yourself free of bullet holes is to keep your hands off other peoples property.

Tim

I give up… no crime has ever been solved with a serial number off a gun…..your right.

big G

G – From what I have read – and I do not have the specific document or article info to back it up(I read this a few years ago – and do not recall exactly where the article came from) – they have had mandetory registration of all weapons in England since 1934 (I think that is the correct year, but I am not positive). Since then, according to the report I read, there have been a total of ZERO homicides solved by backtracking where the gun came from. Not one or two, ZERO. Granted – the report I read was likely put out by that evil right wing organization, the NRA, but if the article is remotely close to accurate, registration of guns/ammo is grossly ineffective (other than the effect of limiting law abiding citizens).

I am staunchly opposed to infringing our rights and inconveniencing responsible people because criminals do stupid things. The laws and restrictions do not affect the criminals whatsoever, they only hurt the rest of us.

Tim

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Do you think they should be able to use DNA from sperm to locate a suspect ? Same thing as a serial number in my opinion. Who would argue that DNA should not be used in a rape ??

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Serial numbers and sperm are completely different and, in my opinion, do not serve the same purpose in a crime. To start with no one steals another mans sperm to commit a crime. Also when sperm is collected it proves beyond a doubt its owner was present when emitted. However like a guns serial number sperm alone means nothing unless the CRIMINALS DNA is on file. A serial number means nothing unless the gun is registered. And then all it means is the guy who bought it legally will be harassed for something a CRIMINAL did. Example: Todd can shoot Amy with Mikes gun. Todd cannot rape Amy with Mikes sperm. And if Todd did figure out a way to steal Mikes sperm and leave it in/on Amy during the rape why would Mike be to blame and not Todd? That is the problem with the theory that a law somehow legislates responsibility.

As long as we’re back to the “accountability” issue, hiding ammo and guns to prevent the creation of a criminal, I’m going to ask again. What do we tell people to do that have had their cars stolen or homes broken into? I’ve looked and can’t seem to find any sort of cloaking device to hide these items with.

Can someone help me explain that making law abiding citizens abide by more laws will NOT IMPACT CRIME OR CRIMINALS? Obviously what I’m typing that makes sense to me comes out looking like a monkey wrote it when holding the pencil in his butt.

Riveratt, I will just ask one more question and then be done with this thread…. again… Why do banks have vaults, when they obviously have locks on the doors, they can lock when they leave ???

big G

Um, from my memory of the inside of a bank, I’d say it is because the public is roaming around inside the bank all day when the exterior doors are unlocked? I’d also suspect there are other reasons similar to why we have gun vaults in our home. Fire protection being one of them.

And another question for whomever. Do bank vaults and exterior locking doors stop bank robberies? And who do the authorities look for after a bank robbery the bank president or the THIEF? Or maybe they don’t have to look at all. After all money is all serial numbered!

That is why I am out of this thread…. why do they serial number bills anyways…. Just another way for the “man” to keep track of us I suppose…

bye bye, big G

My Mom always said if you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say anything at all…So I will try…

A man is dead. Killed by a criminal. Not by a good person who buys registered bullets, because they do not do that. He was shot with a bullet he stole from XYZ business…or Big G’s house or dashboard for sake of argument.

The man is still dead. Killed by a criminal.

We know by registered bullets that they came from the store that was burglarized or Big G’s dashboard. Neither committed the crime, but were subjected to needless Govt. control. It did NOTHING to PREVENT or SOLVE this crime.

The guy is still dead. Killed by a criminal.

And law enforcement is no closer to solving this thing because of registered bullets.

But the guy is still dead. Killed by a criminal.

Correct me if I am wrong…but handguns are registered too. Has that stopped gun crimes?

The criminal will continue to use those rounds and illegal gun for how many other crimes? What kind of punishment will they get? Or will it be plea bargained down only to have them serve minimal time behind bars, and be released back into society to pick up where they left off.

You want to stop that criminal from killing that guy? Start by putting some teeth into laws for killings by guns. Mandatory life without parole. Leave my bullets and guns alone, and don’t be one of the million lemmings jumping over the cliff.

OK I will try too, my mom always said the same thing.

A guy is killed in California, with bullets that were stolen from where ??? Let’s see, according to the serial number on the round, these bullets were bought at Gander Mountain, in St Cloud, Mn, on Sept 21, 2008 by a guy named big G. They ask big G, any way you killed a guy in CA in Oct of 08 ??? Nope, never been there. How did your bullets get there then ? Huh. Well I always lock my bullets up in my safe in the house and I don’t leave them laying around for anyone to take… but I do remember in late Sept 2008, one time at the range, I lost or had stolen a half a box of rounds. What range ? In St Cloud. Well the range log shows there was 6 people at the range on that day, when you were there. 2 were in the handgun range, 1 in the 3D bow range and 2 others besides yourself in the 200 yard rifle range. Maybe we should look into the other 2 guys also Turns out, one of the guys was a guy from CA, a drifter type. CSI baby.

This is how crimes get solved. Serial numbered casings and rounds will do little to prevent, in the first instance of a crime, but help solve crime ??? I say yes. Will getting thugs and murderers off the streets, prevent crime ??? It sure as he77 will prevent them for awhile. On the subject of tougher penalties and deterents, you will get no argument from me. Anyone who willfully takes a life, should have theirs taken as well, but thats a whole nother thread. He could not see the forest…for the trees….

big G

Possible…maybe.
Probable? I highly doubt it…but hey, that is our opinions.

I still luv ya!

Crimes get solved by criminals using their real names on various name logs? On second thought it isn’t so far fetched. How many times have we read of buglars being caught after they crawled out someones house window and went right home. Through the snow!

I bet that log (Many ranges in small locales don’t have attendees much less logs) would show the names of the criminal alright. But instead of it being Riveratt it’d say Ben Rankin, Mike Hunt, Barb Dwier, or I.P Daily.

I’d say that is a one in a billion way to solve a crime, having a criminal honest enough to use his/her real name.

Serial numbering bullets is a feel good thing for some but is really a lucrative way to try and bankrupt the ammo industry by those pushing for it. Nothing more nor less.

You give the criminals too much credit….. I love the ones that leave their wallets behind…..

big G

I recall a story about a bank robber who was PO’d that the bank he wanted to rob had locked the safe and no employees had the key. He actually left his name and phone number so the manager could call him when he got there with the key so he could come back and rob it!

Maybe they ought to serial number idiots when they are born and insert a tracking chip in them.