Only in WI!

  • Brian Klawitter
    Keymaster
    Minnesota/Wisconsin Mississippi River
    Posts: 60010
    #209746

    Quote:


    DT: May 18, 2006
    FR: Senator Dave Zien
    RE: Supreme Court’s opinion on State v. Fisher

    View the Supreme Court’s opinion at
    http://www.wicourts.gov/sc/opinion/DisplayDocument.pdf?content=pdf&seqNo=251
    65

    This is a concealed carry case in which Fisher was a tavern owner in Black
    River Falls who kept a loaded gun in his center console of his vehicle
    because he transported large sums of cash from his tavern to the bank.

    The Supreme Court ruled against Fisher’s right to keep and bear arms for the
    following reasons:
    Law enforcement are at risk because citizens tend to have criminal
    tendencies when they have firearms outside their home or business
    Fisher was not in a high crime area
    Fisher was not in immediate danger of his life
    Fisher had not been a victim of violent crime in the past

    Because Fisher was not in his home or business, he was not in a high-crime
    area, he had not been a victim of violent crime in the past, and he was in
    no immediate danger of losing his life, the Court ruled the state has a
    “strong interest” in ensuring Wisconsin citizens have no right to keep and
    bear arms for security unless these criteria are met.
    Likewise, do you keep a fire extinguisher on hand because your house is in a
    high-fire area, and it has been on fire in the past, and there is an
    immediate danger of your house starting on fire? The State’s interest would
    probably also say you shouldn’t have a fire extinguisher on hand until these
    criteria are met because a fire extinguisher in your hands any other time
    would cause you to commit crimes against firefighters.

    The Court answered the first of the two questions required to be asked as a
    result of Hamdan. The first was answered, which is “Was the need to carry a
    concealed weapon substantial?” The latter was not answered, and that was
    “Was concealing the weapon the only reasonable means? The Court’s answer to
    the first question was NO.

    The court referred to the Hamdan case when it created exempted places where
    “the right to keep and bear arms for purposes of security is at its apex”.
    Those places are a privately-owned business or private home. The court
    ruled against Fisher because he was in neither of those places.

    As Justice Crooks point out in his dissenting opinion, the court should have
    struck down the statute and has no business doing the job of the legislature
    when it judicially rewrote the concealed carry statute. He further writes,
    “The legitimate concerns of law enforcement are best addressed by the
    legislature, not by a piecemeal approach by this court.”

    The court compared the circumstances of Hamdan to those of Fisher, and ruled
    that you don’t have the Right to Keep and Bear Arms unless the following are
    true:
    Your business or home is in what would be classified as a high-crime
    neighborhood using FBI crime statistics
    Your store or home had been the site of past robberies AND homicides
    You had been a crime victim at your business or home
    You had concerns for not only your life, but your family and customers
    You had good reason to anticipate future crime problems at your business or
    home and need to provide your own security to deal with the problems.

    So, Fisher had no constitutional right to keep and bear arms because he had
    not been the victim of a violent crime and he did not live in a high crime
    area (Milwaukee).

    The court compared in detail the “high-crime neighborhood” where Hamdan’s
    store is located in Milwaukee with the neighborhood of Fisher’s tavern, and
    stated “Fisher’s tavern. cannot realistically be considered to be situated
    in a high-crime neighborhood.”

    In the court’s view, Fisher might have the right to keep and bear arms if
    his tavern’s neighborhood had:
    At least three homicides,
    24 robberies,
    and 28 aggravated batteries reported that year

    The court inferred that an individual has a “weak interest” in personal
    protection outside a business or home compared to the state’s “strong
    interest” in banning concealed weapons. The state’s “strong interest” in
    banning concealed weapons in Statute 941.23 were identified in Hamdan:
    Carrying a concealed weapon permits a person to act violently on impulse,
    whether from anger or fear.
    People should be put on notice when they are dealing with an individual who
    s carrying a dangerous weapon. Notice permits other people, including law
    enforcement officers, to act accordingly.
    Concealed weapons facilitate the commission of crime by creating the
    appearance of normality and catching people off guard.
    Concealed carry laws promote the preservation of life by affixing a stigma
    of criminality to those who carry concealed weapons except for law
    enforcement officers.

    The court is saying that guns in the hands of citizens cause them to be
    criminals, thus, the state’s “strong interest” in banning concealed weapons
    outweighs a citizen’s “weak interest” in having the right to keep and bear
    arms.

    The court states, “Of particular concern is the potential danger to law
    enforcement to law enforcement officers if an individual is carrying a
    concealed weapon during the course of a traffic stop.” (p. 14)

    How and why have the Justices come to such a conclusion? Have 48 other
    states with concealed weapons statutes produced evidence showing grave
    danger to law enforcement?

    The court states, “only in extraordinary circumstances will and individual
    carrying a concealed weapon in a vehicle be able to demonstrate that his or
    her interest in the right to keep and bear arms for security substantially
    outweigh the state’s interest in prohibiting that individual from carrying a
    concealed weapon in his or her motor vehicle.”
    “If a defendant reasonably believes that he or she is actually confronted
    with a threat of bodily harm or death and that carrying a concealed weapon
    is necessary for protection from the threat, extraordinary circumstances
    would be present.”

    The court says you can’t have a gun for personal protection UNTIL the moment
    a violent attacker appears at your car window, AND you have to be in a
    so-called “high-crime area” according to FBI crime statistics. Then what?
    Will your gun magically appear in your glove box in that exact time of need?

    The court stated “there is no evidence in the record that in the
    approximately five years Fisher had owned the tavern it was ever the site of
    an armed robbery, a fatal shooting, or any other violent criminal episodes.”
    (p. 19)

    Apparently Fisher hadn’t “earned his stripes” like Hamdan had. In the
    court’s view, once you’ve gone through what Hamdan went through, you might
    earn your right to keep and bear arms.

    The dissenting Justices were right on the money when they stated “the
    majority. fails to strike down Wisconsin’s overbroad and very restrictive
    concealed weapons statute, and instead continues to judicially re-write it,
    in order to attempt to cure its constitutional defects.”


    john23
    St. Paul, MN
    Posts: 2586
    #17669

    I think the description of the opinion in that email is jaded and borders on inaccurate … but clearly there is a need for conceal and carry reform in WI so that their law is reasonable, enforceable, and understandable.

    john23
    St. Paul, MN
    Posts: 2586
    #447691

    I think the description of the opinion in that email is jaded and borders on inaccurate … but clearly there is a need for conceal and carry reform in WI so that their law is reasonable, enforceable, and understandable.

    biggill
    East Bethel, MN
    Posts: 11321
    #17670

    Quote:


    Will your gun magically appear in your glove box in that exact time of need?



    Sounds ligical

    Quote:


    The court says you can’t have a gun for personal protection UNTIL the moment
    a violent attacker appears at your car window, AND you have to be in a
    so-called “high-crime area” according to FBI crime statistics



    Apparently, we cannot legally protect ourselves until something happens . And, crime only exists in certain areas.

    biggill
    East Bethel, MN
    Posts: 11321
    #447695

    Quote:


    Will your gun magically appear in your glove box in that exact time of need?



    Sounds ligical

    Quote:


    The court says you can’t have a gun for personal protection UNTIL the moment
    a violent attacker appears at your car window, AND you have to be in a
    so-called “high-crime area” according to FBI crime statistics



    Apparently, we cannot legally protect ourselves until something happens . And, crime only exists in certain areas.

    big_g
    Isle, MN
    Posts: 22846
    #17673

    Quote:


    In the court’s view, Fisher might have the right to keep and bear arms if
    his tavern’s neighborhood had:
    At least three homicides,
    24 robberies,
    and 28 aggravated batteries reported that year

    Wow, talk about tough criteria to meet… to be able to defend yourself.

    big g

    big_g
    Isle, MN
    Posts: 22846
    #447722

    Quote:


    In the court’s view, Fisher might have the right to keep and bear arms if
    his tavern’s neighborhood had:
    At least three homicides,
    24 robberies,
    and 28 aggravated batteries reported that year

    Wow, talk about tough criteria to meet… to be able to defend yourself.

    big g

    Brian Klawitter
    Keymaster
    Minnesota/Wisconsin Mississippi River
    Posts: 60010
    #17674

    Quote:


    I think the description of the opinion in that email is jaded and borders on inaccurate … but clearly there is a need for conceal and carry reform in WI so that their law is reasonable, enforceable, and understandable.


    John, it was written by Dick Baker, a vocal WI Conceal Carry avocate.

    I’m sure the anti group would have a differant spin.

    Brian Klawitter
    Keymaster
    Minnesota/Wisconsin Mississippi River
    Posts: 60010
    #447733

    Quote:


    I think the description of the opinion in that email is jaded and borders on inaccurate … but clearly there is a need for conceal and carry reform in WI so that their law is reasonable, enforceable, and understandable.


    John, it was written by Dick Baker, a vocal WI Conceal Carry avocate.

    I’m sure the anti group would have a differant spin.

    farmboy1
    Mantorville, MN
    Posts: 3666
    #17675

    Quote:


    I think the description of the opinion in that email is jaded and borders on inaccurate … but clearly there is a need for conceal and carry reform in WI so that their law is reasonable, enforceable, and understandable.


    I agree that it may be inaccurate, but if so, provide some factual information to offset this opinion.

    As far as being jaded, please find me any writting in which the writer does not interject their views. It simply does not happen, especially in the matters of gun control.

    Just my $.02

    farmboy1
    Mantorville, MN
    Posts: 3666
    #447737

    Quote:


    I think the description of the opinion in that email is jaded and borders on inaccurate … but clearly there is a need for conceal and carry reform in WI so that their law is reasonable, enforceable, and understandable.


    I agree that it may be inaccurate, but if so, provide some factual information to offset this opinion.

    As far as being jaded, please find me any writting in which the writer does not interject their views. It simply does not happen, especially in the matters of gun control.

    Just my $.02

    john23
    St. Paul, MN
    Posts: 2586
    #17676

    Quote:


    I’m sure the anti group would have a differant spin.


    That’s really all I was saying. An advocate doing his job. I’m sorry for firing guys up with my comment.

    I do believe that the WI law is ridiculous and I’d be 100% in favor of something like MN now has if I lived there. Standardized conceal and carry is good for everyone — again my opinion.

    john23
    St. Paul, MN
    Posts: 2586
    #447749

    Quote:


    I’m sure the anti group would have a differant spin.


    That’s really all I was saying. An advocate doing his job. I’m sorry for firing guys up with my comment.

    I do believe that the WI law is ridiculous and I’d be 100% in favor of something like MN now has if I lived there. Standardized conceal and carry is good for everyone — again my opinion.

    farmboy1
    Mantorville, MN
    Posts: 3666
    #17677

    Sorry, Did not mean to jump on you. I guess I took it differently then it was meant.

    farmboy1
    Mantorville, MN
    Posts: 3666
    #447759

    Sorry, Did not mean to jump on you. I guess I took it differently then it was meant.

    Brian Klawitter
    Keymaster
    Minnesota/Wisconsin Mississippi River
    Posts: 60010
    #17678

    Quote:


    Standardized conceal and carry is good for everyone


    John23…our next president of the US!

    That would be too easy! But a great thought!

    Brian Klawitter
    Keymaster
    Minnesota/Wisconsin Mississippi River
    Posts: 60010
    #447764

    Quote:


    Standardized conceal and carry is good for everyone


    John23…our next president of the US!

    That would be too easy! But a great thought!

Viewing 17 posts - 1 through 17 (of 17 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.