Kel-tec P3-AT Junk or the Best….

It is better than not having anything at all. Kinetic energy is what you need to create hydrostatic shock. That is what you could interpret as “Stopping Power.” The more KE and the more HSS you have, the more potent the round is on a object or subject. For personal protection, I would rate them .45 (If you can tolerate weight and bulk) the .40 and 9mm, and then the .380. As Jon Jordan says, a 22 hollow point can do some damage! But I think when you get down below a .32, you lose that bone breaking/shattering power, and move more into deflection of the bullets when they come into contact with bones. The .45 had long been a favorite of the marines because of battles fought against the Japanese. Standard issue was at that time a .38 K frame. The Japanese would tie off limbs with rope, and get drunk of their gourde on Saki, and charge US troops. Close combat, knives against .38’s. The .38 proved ineffective against these waves of human sacrifices. Enter the .45 ACP. When you were hit by this round, YOU STAYED HIT! The old joke was “You could hit a guy in the thumb, and take his whole arm off!”
Now, is your wife/daughter/girlfriend going to carry one? Nah…But a .380 will hurt or deter an attacker. It would me! It may be just enough to get the job done when needed.
Tuck

According to the FBI Student Training report on pistol ballistics. Knock down power is a myth. They prove it with the pendulum test and further prove it with Newton’s Law. For ever action there is an opposite and equal reaction. In order for you to knock me down with a bullet shot from your gun it would have to knock me down the opposite direction. I will further make my point: I have shot several 160+ lb deer running at or slightly away and towards me with my 338 Winchester Mag. 275 grain bullet over 2 times the velocity of a pistol with same weight bullet. No deer to date has stopped, flipped over or jumped up and or flew back as in the movies. They actually kept coming forward and or in some cases kept on running for a while. So if you think you can carry something in your pocket that is better than my Glock 26 9mm or my kel-teck 380 you got to prove it to me. I have carried a gun for over 25 years, all I want is a gun that I can hit with (first and foremost) And for you 40 s&w in a sub compact gun guys, go shoot double and triple taps once and you will see why most police dept including Brooklyn park will not allow off duty cops to carry glock 27. They can’t hit with follow up shot’s because of recoil. If you can’t hit with, it does not matter if you carry a 338 Mag! Next I want something I can hide and is light. If it is uncomfortable to carry and hide you will not carry it long term.

The French police have carried the .380 with great success and have proven its ranking as a man stopper.

If you want to argue this with me I want facts not myth. Most of you who carry will not shot enough not to be a threat to any one near who you shoot at. (most shoot less than half as much as police officers , and they miss 53%) So please do not get caught up in the I have to have knock down power trap. Get the gun you can shoot the best with,3 380’s in the chest is better than one hit and 2 misses in most bigger calibers. Multiple wound channels kill fastest. This is a fact more holes to bleed from.

If I told you I will give you $10,000 dollars to the best group at 21 feet would you use your Glock 27 40 S&W or my 22LR auto? Give some though to this.

According to the FBI Student Training report on pistol ballistics. Knock down power is a myth. They prove it with the pendulum test and further prove it with Newton’s Law. For ever action there is an opposite and equal reaction. In order for you to knock me down with a bullet shot from your gun it would have to knock me down the opposite direction. I will further make my point: I have shot several 160+ lb deer running at or slightly away and towards me with my 338 Winchester Mag. 275 grain bullet over 2 times the velocity of a pistol with same weight bullet. No deer to date has stopped, flipped over or jumped up and or flew back as in the movies. They actually kept coming forward and or in some cases kept on running for a while. So if you think you can carry something in your pocket that is better than my Glock 26 9mm or my kel-teck 380 you got to prove it to me. I have carried a gun for over 25 years, all I want is a gun that I can hit with (first and foremost) And for you 40 s&w in a sub compact gun guys, go shoot double and triple taps once and you will see why most police dept including Brooklyn park will not allow off duty cops to carry glock 27. They can’t hit with follow up shot’s because of recoil. If you can’t hit with, it does not matter if you carry a 338 Mag! Next I want something I can hide and is light. If it is uncomfortable to carry and hide you will not carry it long term.

The French police have carried the .380 with great success and have proven its ranking as a man stopper.

If you want to argue this with me I want facts not myth. Most of you who carry will not shot enough not to be a threat to any one near who you shoot at. (most shoot less than half as much as police officers , and they miss 53%) So please do not get caught up in the I have to have knock down power trap. Get the gun you can shoot the best with,3 380’s in the chest is better than one hit and 2 misses in most bigger calibers. Multiple wound channels kill fastest. This is a fact more holes to bleed from.

If I told you I will give you $10,000 dollars to the best group at 21 feet would you use your Glock 27 40 S&W or my 22LR auto? Give some though to this.

Quote:

---

If I told you I will give you $10,000 dollars to the best group at 21 feet would you use your Glock 27 40 S&W or my 22LR auto? Give some though to this.

---

Great post and I agree with evey thing you wrote. I’ll take the 22LR.

-J.

Quote:

---

If I told you I will give you $10,000 dollars to the best group at 21 feet would you use your Glock 27 40 S&W or my 22LR auto? Give some though to this.

---

Great post and I agree with evey thing you wrote. I’ll take the 22LR.

-J.

Thanks , I need to add one more thing from the same report(FBI) the only sure way to stop some one for sure is with a shot that will cut the spine at or around the neck and or a head shot to the brain. One more reason to be able to shoot really well and to practice. (most do not) they only talk about it or put it on their to do list.

Thanks , I need to add one more thing from the same report(FBI) the only sure way to stop some one for sure is with a shot that will cut the spine at or around the neck and or a head shot to the brain. One more reason to be able to shoot really well and to practice. (most do not) they only talk about it or put it on their to do list.
I sell the Beam Hit Personal Laser training system. go to my site http://WWW.CONCEALCARRY.NET and look at it. You can get so good so fast for so little with your gun. Teach your wife to shoot with it and she will not have a problem with the small cost.

Myth Busters did a neat piece on “knock-down” power.

They tested a full torso made of ballistics gelatin and hung that torso from a hook. No matter what they shot it with, handguns, shotguns and various rifles, they couldn’t even get the torso to swing to the slightest degree.

When they went smaller and shot melons what they found was that melons “jump” toward the shooter and do not fly violent away upon impact. The reason the targets moved towards the shooter was as the bullet passed through the object the “insides” expanded violently under pressure out the exit hole resulting in the object shot to actually move toward the shooter. They compared it to a little jet nozzle of goo!

Regardless… I still don’t want to get shot, even if I won’t go flying through a plate glass window or wall like you see in the movies.

Myth Busters did a neat piece on “knock-down” power.

They tested a full torso made of ballistics gelatin and hung that torso from a hook. No matter what they shot it with, handguns, shotguns and various rifles, they couldn’t even get the torso to swing to the slightest degree.

When they went smaller and shot melons what they found was that melons “jump” toward the shooter and do not fly violent away upon impact. The reason the targets moved towards the shooter was as the bullet passed through the object the “insides” expanded violently under pressure out the exit hole resulting in the object shot to actually move toward the shooter. They compared it to a little jet nozzle of goo!

Regardless… I still don’t want to get shot, even if I won’t go flying through a plate glass window or wall like you see in the movies.

I agree with the accuracy factor regarding small caliber handguns. It is true double taps are much easier to repeat using a .22, .380. or .32. I did not say however that “Knockdown power” means knocking something off their feet. I am talking about colateral damage to surrounding organs caused by hydrostatic shock. It is that system “Shock” that you see when a deer gets shot…the one that makes him hunch and quiver. That is what a large caliber does. A .22 does not. You will not convine me otherwise. You can double tap all you want, I will still make my first shot count (Hopefully), and you can do it your way. Joe, you bought a 10MM for deer hunting. Would you use that same .380 if it was legal? Would you use a .22 or .32?

That is all I am saying.

Tuck

I agree with the accuracy factor regarding small caliber handguns. It is true double taps are much easier to repeat using a .22, .380. or .32. I did not say however that “Knockdown power” means knocking something off their feet. I am talking about colateral damage to surrounding organs caused by hydrostatic shock. It is that system “Shock” that you see when a deer gets shot…the one that makes him hunch and quiver. That is what a large caliber does. A .22 does not. You will not convine me otherwise. You can double tap all you want, I will still make my first shot count (Hopefully), and you can do it your way. Joe, you bought a 10MM for deer hunting. Would you use that same .380 if it was legal? Would you use a .22 or .32?
That is all I am saying.
Tuck

This is more to the point of what I want to convey:

The two most important factors in stopping a bad guy are: 1) where you place your bullets, and 2) what organs your bullets penetrate and damage.

How much penetration is adequate? According to the nation’s most prominent wound ballistics experts, your bullets should penetrate at least 12 inches of soft tissue. Penetration beyond 18 inches is considered too much, and a less penetrating design should be considered to optimize the cartridge’s wounding potential.

But with small caliber cartridges such as .22 LR, .25 ACP, and .32 ACP (and sometimes .380 ACP), you’re better off selecting a non-expanding bullet that might exceed 18 inches of penetration than to choose a bullet that expands and underpenetrates. When a bullet expands, the increased diameter and non-aerodynamic shape acts like a parachute to quickly slow and stop the bullet as it penetrates flesh. These tiny bullets lack the mass and momentum to achieve adequate penetration after they expand.

Bullets that meet the 12-18 inch penetration guidelines have proven to be very effective in police shooting incidents that have been investigated by reputable researchers who use the scientific method. These findings have been verified and validated by other distinguished wound ballistics researchers who’ve fully reviewed the data. These findings are far superior in validity to the Marshall/Sanow “one-shot stopping power” junk-science that is published in newsstand gun magazines.

There are a lot of people who’ve been deluded into believing that legitimate wound ballistics researchers simply shoot bullets into ordnance gelatin and ignore shooting results that show how effective these bullets are in stopping an attacker. This kind of faulty research would be incredibly absurd, wouldn’t it? Do you really believe these researchers are that incompetent or ignorant? Their work wouldn’t pass peer review or be accepted as valid by the scientific community. However, these scientists don’t publish their work in newsstand gun magazines for financial gain, and they really don’t care what the general population chooses to believe. These researchers publish their findings in professional journals, where it’s available to people who are truly interested in the data.

The concepts of placement and penetration are simple — too simple for some people to accept — but these factors are the most important in stopping a homicidal attack.

What bullet is best? It’s one you can shoot accurately under stress that’s capable of penetrating deeply enough to inflict fatal hemorrhage and reliably functions in your gun. There’s nothing mystical or complicated about handgun ammunition wounding effectiveness. It’s simple: placement and penetration

Tuck

This is more to the point of what I want to convey:

The two most important factors in stopping a bad guy are: 1) where you place your bullets, and 2) what organs your bullets penetrate and damage.

How much penetration is adequate? According to the nation’s most prominent wound ballistics experts, your bullets should penetrate at least 12 inches of soft tissue. Penetration beyond 18 inches is considered too much, and a less penetrating design should be considered to optimize the cartridge’s wounding potential.

But with small caliber cartridges such as .22 LR, .25 ACP, and .32 ACP (and sometimes .380 ACP), you’re better off selecting a non-expanding bullet that might exceed 18 inches of penetration than to choose a bullet that expands and underpenetrates. When a bullet expands, the increased diameter and non-aerodynamic shape acts like a parachute to quickly slow and stop the bullet as it penetrates flesh. These tiny bullets lack the mass and momentum to achieve adequate penetration after they expand.

Bullets that meet the 12-18 inch penetration guidelines have proven to be very effective in police shooting incidents that have been investigated by reputable researchers who use the scientific method. These findings have been verified and validated by other distinguished wound ballistics researchers who’ve fully reviewed the data. These findings are far superior in validity to the Marshall/Sanow “one-shot stopping power” junk-science that is published in newsstand gun magazines.

There are a lot of people who’ve been deluded into believing that legitimate wound ballistics researchers simply shoot bullets into ordnance gelatin and ignore shooting results that show how effective these bullets are in stopping an attacker. This kind of faulty research would be incredibly absurd, wouldn’t it? Do you really believe these researchers are that incompetent or ignorant? Their work wouldn’t pass peer review or be accepted as valid by the scientific community. However, these scientists don’t publish their work in newsstand gun magazines for financial gain, and they really don’t care what the general population chooses to believe. These researchers publish their findings in professional journals, where it’s available to people who are truly interested in the data.

The concepts of placement and penetration are simple — too simple for some people to accept — but these factors are the most important in stopping a homicidal attack.

What bullet is best? It’s one you can shoot accurately under stress that’s capable of penetrating deeply enough to inflict fatal hemorrhage and reliably functions in your gun. There’s nothing mystical or complicated about handgun ammunition wounding effectiveness. It’s simple: placement and penetration

Tuck

Backing up a bit….

Quote:

---

I’ve heard of the 500 & seen it ! It’s fasinating but never shot one. Looks so huge I thought it was a novelty at first.

---

Although I’ve never shot one…I did watch a guy at Bill’s a few weeks ago. No Double Tapping with that gun!!

Joe and Chris, before I get into the best calibur issue…aren’t you going to say how pretty my wifes ex-Kel-Tec is?

I have notice a couple different thoughts on carry besides cal. There are the folks that (hope you don’t mind if I quote you Jon…) carry “cowboy stay”, in the open all the time. Then there’s the folks that want it mostly concealed, but if it pops out into veiw once in a while…that’s ok. And lastly the people that don’t ever want to anyone to know that they are packing. I would PERSONALLY fall into the later…but I yap too much on-line to really fit in that group 100% .

It seems like the first two groups lean towards the larger frame guns and the last group leans towards the mouse guns. Sorry Joe…no scientific data for that, just my observations.

Last thing…Chris, I think you were leaning towards the Kel tec .380 being junk for CC and Joe was leaning towards it being the best if that’s the biggist cal gun you feel comfortable with…was I close on this?

Backing up a bit….

Quote:

---

I’ve heard of the 500 & seen it ! It’s fasinating but never shot one. Looks so huge I thought it was a novelty at first.

---

Although I’ve never shot one…I did watch a guy at Bill’s a few weeks ago. No Double Tapping with that gun!!

Joe and Chris, before I get into the best calibur issue…aren’t you going to say how pretty my wifes ex-Kel-Tec is?

I have notice a couple different thoughts on carry besides cal. There are the folks that (hope you don’t mind if I quote you Jon…) carry “cowboy stay”, in the open all the time. Then there’s the folks that want it mostly concealed, but if it pops out into veiw once in a while…that’s ok. And lastly the people that don’t ever want to anyone to know that they are packing. I would PERSONALLY fall into the later…but I yap too much on-line to really fit in that group 100% .

It seems like the first two groups lean towards the larger frame guns and the last group leans towards the mouse guns. Sorry Joe…no scientific data for that, just my observations.

Last thing…Chris, I think you were leaning towards the Kel tec .380 being junk for CC and Joe was leaning towards it being the best if that’s the biggist cal gun you feel comfortable with…was I close on this?

Junk?
No.
I had to go back and look at my posts to see if I insinuated that or not. You for one questioned the .380 and the “Wet leather Jacket”. Do you think, or more precisely, would you bet your life that you could get 12 to 18″ penetration with that round on someone wearing a heavy coat in the winter? With a sweater or heavy sweatshirt underneath? Like I said to you in a PM, under the right circumstances, I would carry a .380, and I plan to buy one. Summer time, when clothing for a perp is not an issue, and fewer clothes for me to conceal is! A .380 would work out fine for me with the proper ammo in a gun that can handle a “Plus P” rounds.

Junk?
No.
I had to go back and look at my posts to see if I insinuated that or not. You for one questioned the .380 and the “Wet leather Jacket”. Do you think, or more precisely, would you bet your life that you could get 12 to 18″ penetration with that round on someone wearing a heavy coat in the winter? With a sweater or heavy sweatshirt underneath? Like I said to you in a PM, under the right circumstances, I would carry a .380, and I plan to buy one. Summer time, when clothing for a perp is not an issue, and fewer clothes for me to conceal is! A .380 would work out fine for me with the proper ammo in a gun that can handle a “Plus P” rounds.

You guys really have a great post going here. Backing up a bit I would only have to add that the most important thing about “stopping a bad guy” is to recognize that he/she is a bad guy to begin with.

Last year I was leaving a mall (yeah, I admit it.. I had to go to a mall). I happened to be walking out right behind this small frail looking thing with hip huggers & a cell phone to her ear. (Y – she was kinda cute, but really I was walking to my car..no really..I was..)

After walking to my car, which seemed forever cause I parked far away..she walked to her car 3 cars from me, oblivious to me or anyone else around her. Her lack of awareness of her surroundings put her in danger without her even knowing it.. I think most people don’t train themselves to be aware. It’s the “never thought it could happen in a small town like this attitude”

If she had some awareness, she could have created some space, some distance or some distraction like altering her cell phone conversation to reflect details had she thought she was being followed. Luckily I’m the good guy.

There’s my 2 cents. Keep the change.

You guys really have a great post going here. Backing up a bit I would only have to add that the most important thing about “stopping a bad guy” is to recognize that he/she is a bad guy to begin with.

Last year I was leaving a mall (yeah, I admit it.. I had to go to a mall). I happened to be walking out right behind this small frail looking thing with hip huggers & a cell phone to her ear. (Y – she was kinda cute, but really I was walking to my car..no really..I was..)

After walking to my car, which seemed forever cause I parked far away..she walked to her car 3 cars from me, oblivious to me or anyone else around her. Her lack of awareness of her surroundings put her in danger without her even knowing it.. I think most people don’t train themselves to be aware. It’s the “never thought it could happen in a small town like this attitude”

If she had some awareness, she could have created some space, some distance or some distraction like altering her cell phone conversation to reflect details had she thought she was being followed. Luckily I’m the good guy.

There’s my 2 cents. Keep the change.

You are so right TN!

Being aware of your surroundings in the first step in “not being a victim” and likely the easiest.

When I heard Joe talking about his Refuse to Be a Victim class…I thought WOW! this guy is paranoid….after I started thinking about it a bit…some simple things could keep a person out of trouble without having to rely on “is my round going to penetrate deep enough”…which is what everyone should do…wheather you carry or not.

Glancing under your car as you walk to it, looking in the back seat before you get in, noticing the second exit of the building you are going into. It all goes back to am I a sheep or a sheep dog post…

PS Sorry Joe, I didn’t mean to sound like I insulted you…but the first time I heard you talk about this…I had the same thought that “I think” many people have…”why should I even think about those things…it can’t happen to me in my little town”. It does and it can…Hastings MN and Hudson WI comes to mind right off the bat.

You are so right TN!

Being aware of your surroundings in the first step in “not being a victim” and likely the easiest.

When I heard Joe talking about his Refuse to Be a Victim class…I thought WOW! this guy is paranoid….after I started thinking about it a bit…some simple things could keep a person out of trouble without having to rely on “is my round going to penetrate deep enough”…which is what everyone should do…wheather you carry or not.

Glancing under your car as you walk to it, looking in the back seat before you get in, noticing the second exit of the building you are going into. It all goes back to am I a sheep or a sheep dog post…

PS Sorry Joe, I didn’t mean to sound like I insulted you…but the first time I heard you talk about this…I had the same thought that “I think” many people have…”why should I even think about those things…it can’t happen to me in my little town”. It does and it can…Hastings MN and Hudson WI comes to mind right off the bat.

Quote:

---

A .380 would work out fine for me with the proper ammo in a gun that can handle a “Plus P” rounds.

---

Go Core-Bon! (thanks RN )

Quote:

---

A .380 would work out fine for me with the proper ammo in a gun that can handle a “Plus P” rounds.

---

Go Core-Bon! (thanks RN )

Chris,
I will and you will (do it our way) I respect your knowledge about ballistics. You surely know more than me. I would hunt deer with a .22 if I could. What a challenge? (But it will not shoot back if I did not kill it with the first shot). If I miss on the back up or the first shot does not kill, I may be dead. I would never carry anything smaller than a .380 you know that I said that in my class.
I have shot personally with several hundreds of people in the last 3 years. Accuracy is the real problem that we need to deal with it first. After I do a class I get many calls about what ammo to get the most out of my gun. I rarely get a calls about how do I get more training so I do not hit some one I do not want to hit. (Remember I shoot with these people so I know how they shoot) Too many people in my opinion feel they can make up for having to shoot twice by having a bigger gun. I have heard “with what I carry I will not need a back up shot” I got news. If you do not go out (as I do) from time to time and run for 5 minuets as fast as you can and then shoot, you have no idea how hard it is to hit something when you are overcome by fear and adrenaline. I think it is good to talk about bullets, I just do not think we talk enough about shooting and the need for it.
I have talked to three of the owners of Ranges in the twin cities. The increase in business since the bill past in no way shows that people are shooting any where near as much as it should. So I feel too much time is spent on size of gun and bullets and not enough on shooting skills. If I at any time seem to be lecturing I do not mean to. I am not an expert on guns or bullets I am some what an expert on seeing people shoot. It’s not good. Side bar: Women ask for training about 10 to 1 over men. Of the men only half of them ever show up at all when they schedule a shooting and rarely never again. I think we (men ) think its in our genes to be good with a gun. To be fair I also teach Bowling and women also take more lessons than men as a rule. Most students just barely get all the shots on the target at 15 feet with my .22 borrowed to them.

Chris,
I will and you will (do it our way) I respect your knowledge about ballistics. You surely know more than me. I would hunt deer with a .22 if I could. What a challenge? (But it will not shoot back if I did not kill it with the first shot). If I miss on the back up or the first shot does not kill, I may be dead. I would never carry anything smaller than a .380 you know that I said that in my class.
I have shot personally with several hundreds of people in the last 3 years. Accuracy is the real problem that we need to deal with it first. After I do a class I get many calls about what ammo to get the most out of my gun. I rarely get a calls about how do I get more training so I do not hit some one I do not want to hit. (Remember I shoot with these people so I know how they shoot) Too many people in my opinion feel they can make up for having to shoot twice by having a bigger gun. I have heard “with what I carry I will not need a back up shot” I got news. If you do not go out (as I do) from time to time and run for 5 minuets as fast as you can and then shoot, you have no idea how hard it is to hit something when you are overcome by fear and adrenaline. I think it is good to talk about bullets, I just do not think we talk enough about shooting and the need for it.
I have talked to three of the owners of Ranges in the twin cities. The increase in business since the bill past in no way shows that people are shooting any where near as much as it should. So I feel too much time is spent on size of gun and bullets and not enough on shooting skills. If I at any time seem to be lecturing I do not mean to. I am not an expert on guns or bullets I am some what an expert on seeing people shoot. It’s not good. Side bar: Women ask for training about 10 to 1 over men. Of the men only half of them ever show up at all when they schedule a shooting and rarely never again. I think we (men ) think its in our genes to be good with a gun. To be fair I also teach Bowling and women also take more lessons than men as a rule. Most students just barely get all the shots on the target at 15 feet with my .22 borrowed to them.

Joe, if you are looking for an argument, you are not going to get one out of me. I agree 100% with virtually everything you have noted above. The question was “What do I think about the .380?” I think I backed up my reasoning for going with the .40. I am not going to argue the fact that you shoot MUCH more than I do, and the fact that you deal with people every day that don’t know which end of the gun to aim down range. I think you may have read WAY too much into what I was saying. I made my comments based on my background in the military, law enforcement, and many years of competitive shooting. A lot different from the backgrounds of a lot of the people you work with day in and day out. I know it does not make me an expert, but I am far from a novice. I feel I know enough to make an informed decision on what I like in a CC gun. You made fine points in your class, and I am sure your insight will be appreciated by all who view this forum. Again, I will own a .380. It just won’t be my primary CC gun. Thats all.
Tuck

Joe, if you are looking for an argument, you are not going to get one out of me. I agree 100% with virtually everything you have noted above. The question was “What do I think about the .380?” I think I backed up my reasoning for going with the .40. I am not going to argue the fact that you shoot MUCH more than I do, and the fact that you deal with people every day that don’t know which end of the gun to aim down range. I think you may have read WAY too much into what I was saying. I made my comments based on my background in the military, law enforcement, and many years of competitive shooting. A lot different from the backgrounds of a lot of the people you work with day in and day out. I know it does not make me an expert, but I am far from a novice. I feel I know enough to make an informed decision on what I like in a CC gun. You made fine points in your class, and I am sure your insight will be appreciated by all who view this forum. Again, I will own a .380. It just won’t be my primary CC gun. Thats all.
Tuck

I don’t recall for sure…but I don’t think Joe used the .380 for front line protection either. Help me out here Joe…

I believe it was a Glock xx in 9mm was your normal carry…I maybe thinking of someone else…but don’t you carry two?

I have to find a upload a video that a slider friend sent me…and post it here…I’ll be back!

I don’t recall for sure…but I don’t think Joe used the .380 for front line protection either. Help me out here Joe…

I believe it was a Glock xx in 9mm was your normal carry…I maybe thinking of someone else…but don’t you carry two?

I have to find a upload a video that a slider friend sent me…and post it here…I’ll be back!

Here’s a good reason to “keep it simple”.

500 S&W or it’s nick name….No Double Taps…click here for video

PS I think the video was cut short to avoid the language…

Thanks SliderFishing for the entertainment!