Tearing Down Statues Across America

  • joe-winter
    St. Peter, MN
    Posts: 1281
    #1949919

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>joe-winter wrote:</div>
    Do we get a Leif Erickson story too?? Ancestry.com says I am part Scandinavian. I do wait with baited breathe to hear about the just conquerors and pillagers.

    Oh man , I just thought of something … we better change the town of Pillager to Duckies and Bunnies, MN.

    Well Joe if thats what makes your world go around .

    Good luck picking and choosing which folks meet your expectations and which parts of their lives you choose to look past to please the masses.

    For what it’s worth I would have voted no on any referendum for publically funded art Or history.

    Don Meier
    Butternut Wisconsin
    Posts: 1659
    #1949920

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>catmando wrote:</div>

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Tom Sawvell wrote:</div>
    Lets start tearing down Totem Poles since they represent a culture that came across a land bridge and spoil a wilderness where NO man stood. Tell me what the difference is between that and the Columbus statue.

    Well, for one thing Columbus was a slaver who, captured people used them and sold them. DK.

    Maybe you should read a little about Native American history and the relationships they had with each other. While your at it maybe some African history as well.

    Mary and Jesus are who you’ll find as only documented non sinners to walk the earth.

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>catmando wrote:</div>

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Tom Sawvell wrote:</div>
    Lets start tearing down Totem Poles since they represent a culture that came across a land bridge and spoil a wilderness where NO man stood. Tell me what the difference is between that and the Columbus statue.

    Well, for one thing Columbus was a slaver who, captured people used them and sold them. DK.

    Maybe you should read a little about Native American history and the relationships they had with each other. While your at it maybe some African history as well.

    Mary and Jesus are who you’ll find as only documented non sinners to walk the earth.

    Joe you are wrong, there are three Jesus Christ , Virgin Mary and John the Baptist . What does this have to do with tearing down statues of white racist ? Unless you want to add that Christ would most likely approve of those actions ?

    Tom P.
    Whitehall Wi.
    Posts: 3526
    #1949921

    I must be the odd ball out here as when I see a statue of the confederacy it is a reminder of what we should not be, seeing them is a constant reminder.

    There has been whites enslaved just as long as blacks but yet we are not hitting the streets every time a black kills a white or even a black cop killing a white person. There are racists on both sides what blacks should really fear is other blacks, if they want to stay alive. How many black on black murders where are all the protesters, against such atrocities, and most are run by liberals, who claim they are for the people of color……what a joke.

    greig john
    Inactive
    Minnesota
    Posts: 106
    #1949922

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>lindyrig79 wrote:</div>
    Don – what about Christopher Columbus in St Paul, MN? Are you OK with that getting torn down too? Where do you draw the line??

    At first it sounded like only winners were allowed statues but then I thought of all the Native American statues that exist and that theory was thrown out. My only conclusion is that Mary and Jesus are the only white earth walkers that are without sin so would be eligible for statues in Christian tolerated areas.

    Well, they weren’t white, so….

    joe-winter
    St. Peter, MN
    Posts: 1281
    #1949925

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>joe-winter wrote:</div>

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>catmando wrote:</div>

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Tom Sawvell wrote:</div>
    Lets start tearing down Totem Poles since they represent a culture that came across a land bridge and spoil a wilderness where NO man stood. Tell me what the difference is between that and the Columbus statue.

    Well, for one thing Columbus was a slaver who, captured people used them and sold them. DK.

    Maybe you should read a little about Native American history and the relationships they had with each other. While your at it maybe some African history as well.

    Mary and Jesus are who you’ll find as only documented non sinners to walk the earth.

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>joe-winter wrote:</div>

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>catmando wrote:</div>

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Tom Sawvell wrote:</div>
    Lets start tearing down Totem Poles since they represent a culture that came across a land bridge and spoil a wilderness where NO man stood. Tell me what the difference is between that and the Columbus statue.

    Well, for one thing Columbus was a slaver who, captured people used them and sold them. DK.

    Maybe you should read a little about Native American history and the relationships they had with each other. While your at it maybe some African history as well.

    Mary and Jesus are who you’ll find as only documented non sinners to walk the earth.

    Joe you are wrong, there are three Jesus Christ , Virgin Mary and John the Baptist . What does this have to do with tearing down statues of white racist ? Unless you want to add that Christ would most likely approve of those actions ?

    I believe the John the Baptist conversation should be discussed in a different thread.

    It is my understanding of European conquerors and discoverors that they weren’t really racist but instead they had no trouble enslaving and killing people of all races. I could be wrong there.

    Clearly no idols or statues of false gods would be “OK” by Christ.

    In case you couldn’t see through all the sarcasm. I could care less if any statues exist honoring people in world history. If you tear it down you should face the full extent of the law and if you get to tear it down through the proper channels then I want a refund of my tax dollars if any were used to put it up. Get it now??

    Now I will let you non sinners tell me which sinners we should honor with a statue and which of their sins I should be looking past.

    Beast
    Posts: 1123
    #1949936

    You realize black men owned slaves too right? as early as the 1500 I believe. look up Anthony Johnson.

    TheFamousGrouse
    St. Paul, MN
    Posts: 11644
    #1949938

    One needs to remember that this war was fought for states rights.

    This idea that the Civil War was fought for these vague, esoteric, and mostly philosophical reasons and NOT because of slavery is the greatest historical sham and fiction in American history.

    The only “state’s rights” that mattered were the southern states’ right to keep slaves. Any other explanation is pure Confederate revisionist propaganda.

    Parties in the south, for their own political reasons, have perpetrated this act of historical revisionism and rebranding with such success that now even well-meaning people in the north completely believe it. These ideas have even crept into historical texts to such a great degree that the central issue is presented almost aa a footnote.

    As you say, read history. NOT the southern revisionist BS, the actual debates and speeches given before the war. Every significant figure on BOTH sides freely spoke of slavery as THE issue and THE reason why the war would be fought. Every other issue was simply a subheading under the central issue that if slavery was outlawed, the south recognized that both its political and economic power would be eroded. To a man, every prominent confederate political and military figure held these views and fought for this central goal to maintain slavery and therefore the status quo in the south as it relates to all other issues.

    If slavery is America’s original sin, then allowing this continued revisionism to the reason why outlawing it tore our nation in two is our Second Sin.

    There was one and only one reason for filling the public spaces in the south with figures like Davis and Lee. It is because we allowed this fraud to continue for 150 years after the war ended that we are where we are today.

    Grouse

    Dan
    Southeast MN
    Posts: 3784
    #1949955

    Thanks Grouse.

    I’ve never understood how people can say that the Civil War was about state’s rights and actually believe what they’re saying. I’m not going to get into any of the other million things that have come up on this thread, there are plenty of others willing to beat those dead horses over and over, but the only state’s right that the Civil War was fought over was a state’s right to slavery. By mislabeling it that it gives it some courageous libertarian-type feeling but it came down to the south wanting to run a country with slavery.

    Dutchboy
    Central Mn.
    Posts: 16654
    #1949960

    Since slavery had been in those states since the beginning of time, the populous probably thought of them as a right. Much like some view guns today.

    Bass Thumb
    Royalton, MN
    Posts: 1200
    #1949961

    This idea that the Civil War was fought for these vague, esoteric, and mostly philosophical reasons and NOT because of slavery is the greatest historical sham and fiction in American history.

    The only “state’s rights” that mattered were the southern states’ right to keep slaves. Any other explanation is pure Confederate revisionist propaganda.

    Parties in the south, for their own political reasons, have perpetrated this act of historical revisionism and rebranding with such success that now even well-meaning people in the north completely believe it. These ideas have even crept into historical texts to such a great degree that the central issue is presented almost aa a footnote.

    As you say, read history. NOT the southern revisionist BS, the actual debates and speeches given before the war. Every significant figure on BOTH sides freely spoke of slavery as THE issue and THE reason why the war would be fought. Every other issue was simply a subheading under the central issue that if slavery was outlawed, the south recognized that both its political and economic power would be eroded. To a man, every prominent confederate political and military figure held these views and fought for this central goal to maintain slavery and therefore the status quo in the south as it relates to all other issues.

    If slavery is America’s original sin, then allowing this continued revisionism to the reason why outlawing it tore our nation in two is our Second Sin.

    There was one and only one reason for filling the public spaces in the south with figures like Davis and Lee. It is because we allowed this fraud to continue for 150 years after the war ended that we are where we are today.

    Grouse

    Grouse knows his history, I see. applause

    Tom P.
    Whitehall Wi.
    Posts: 3526
    #1949969

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>TheFamousGrouse wrote:</div>
    This idea that the Civil War was fought for these vague, esoteric, and mostly philosophical reasons and NOT because of slavery is the greatest historical sham and fiction in American history.

    The only “state’s rights” that mattered were the southern states’ right to keep slaves. Any other explanation is pure Confederate revisionist propaganda.

    Parties in the south, for their own political reasons, have perpetrated this act of historical revisionism and rebranding with such success that now even well-meaning people in the north completely believe it. These ideas have even crept into historical texts to such a great degree that the central issue is presented almost aa a footnote.

    As you say, read history. NOT the southern revisionist BS, the actual debates and speeches given before the war. Every significant figure on BOTH sides freely spoke of slavery as THE issue and THE reason why the war would be fought. Every other issue was simply a subheading under the central issue that if slavery was outlawed, the south recognized that both its political and economic power would be eroded. To a man, every prominent confederate political and military figure held these views and fought for this central goal to maintain slavery and therefore the status quo in the south as it relates to all other issues.

    If slavery is America’s original sin, then allowing this continued revisionism to the reason why outlawing it tore our nation in two is our Second Sin.

    There was one and only one reason for filling the public spaces in the south with figures like Davis and Lee. It is because we allowed this fraud to continue for 150 years after the war ended that we are where we are today.

    Grouse

    Grouse knows his history, I see. <img src=”//www.in-

    Have to agree cannot say that about some on here.

    depthoutdoors.com/wp-content/smilies/icon_applause.gif” alt=”applause” class=”wp-smiley”>

    Don Meier
    Butternut Wisconsin
    Posts: 1659
    #1949974

    You realize black men owned slaves too right? as early as the 1500 I believe. look up Anthony Johnson.

    Really ? Im mean really ? Its wrong for anyone to own another human being you know that and i know that. The original post was about tearing down those statues of white racist,s. Johnson was a slave himself ! Except back then they were called indentured servants. The man would likely not have owned slaves himself had he not been captured from the country of Angola and brought to America as an indentured servant a polite phrase for SLAVE . As far as i know there is not a single statues of this man. By all means if you know of one please share.

    Beast
    Posts: 1123
    #1949983

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Beast wrote:</div>
    You realize black men owned slaves too right? as early as the 1500 I believe. look up Anthony Johnson.

    Really ? Im mean really ? Its wrong for anyone to own another human being you know that and i know that. The original post was about tearing down those statues of white racist,s. Johnson was a slave himself ! Except back then they were called indentured servants. The man would likely not have owned slaves himself had he not been captured from the country of Angola and brought to America as an indentured servant a polite phrase for SLAVE . As far as i know there is not a single statues of this man. By all means if you know of one please share.

    Point being since you can’t figure it out on your own, It was a way of life back then, even black men participated, yet all your yapping is only about how the whites only are at the foot of the blame, why after all these years it’s accepted to destroy property illegally? what if I found the color of your house offensive, would it give me the right to bulldoze it down?

    Gitchi Gummi
    Posts: 3031
    #1949997

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>mike mulhern wrote:</div>
    One needs to remember that this war was fought for states rights.

    This idea that the Civil War was fought for these vague, esoteric, and mostly philosophical reasons and NOT because of slavery is the greatest historical sham and fiction in American history.

    The only “state’s rights” that mattered were the southern states’ right to keep slaves. Any other explanation is pure Confederate revisionist propaganda.

    Parties in the south, for their own political reasons, have perpetrated this act of historical revisionism and rebranding with such success that now even well-meaning people in the north completely believe it. These ideas have even crept into historical texts to such a great degree that the central issue is presented almost aa a footnote.

    As you say, read history. NOT the southern revisionist BS, the actual debates and speeches given before the war. Every significant figure on BOTH sides freely spoke of slavery as THE issue and THE reason why the war would be fought. Every other issue was simply a subheading under the central issue that if slavery was outlawed, the south recognized that both its political and economic power would be eroded. To a man, every prominent confederate political and military figure held these views and fought for this central goal to maintain slavery and therefore the status quo in the south as it relates to all other issues.

    If slavery is America’s original sin, then allowing this continued revisionism to the reason why outlawing it tore our nation in two is our Second Sin.

    There was one and only one reason for filling the public spaces in the south with figures like Davis and Lee. It is because we allowed this fraud to continue for 150 years after the war ended that we are where we are today.

    Grouse

    Well said Grouse. applause

    TheFamousGrouse
    St. Paul, MN
    Posts: 11644
    #1949999

    Point being since you can’t figure it out on your own, It was a way of life back then, even black men participated, yet all your yapping is only about how the whites only are at the foot of the blame, why after all these years it’s accepted to destroy property illegally?

    The point is not who and of what race participated in slavery because they owned slaves. The point is the legal system that ALLOWED the institution of slavery to exist at all was created and maintained by an all-white, all-of-European-ancestry, wealthy, largely land-owning political class.

    No one save for a white person of European origin–and more likely than not, one of considerable wealth besides–had any political clout at all. Slavery existed because it was legal until our republic made it ILLEGAL.

    I’ve never understood how people can say that the Civil War was about state’s rights and actually believe what they’re saying. By mislabeling it that it gives it some courageous libertarian-type feeling but it came down to the south wanting to run a country with slavery.

    Exactly. Every reason for the Civil War has an umbilical cord that ties it to THE reason. Everything that put and kept the southern political class where they were was tied back to the labor that slaves provided. This labor made the economic production and profits possible.

    The southerners knew their businesses well. The contemporary historical record clearly shows that virtually every southerner of the political class knew the clear facts: Take away the labor that slaves provided and entire industries like cotton and tobacco became too expensive to be profitable. When the profits disappear, so does the political clout.

    Politics then was just like politics now, money buys access and influence and a southern economy without slaves had neither. Perversely, this was much more a known and openly acknowledged fact then, than it is now. And so we still had statutes of Robert E Lee and Jefferson Davis over 150 years later…

    Grouse

    Don Meier
    Butternut Wisconsin
    Posts: 1659
    #1950004

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Don Meier wrote:</div>

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Beast wrote:</div>
    You realize black men owned slaves too right? as early as the 1500 I believe. look up Anthony Johnson.

    Really ? Im mean really ? Its wrong for anyone to own another human being you know that and i know that. The original post was about tearing down those statues of white racist,s. Johnson was a slave himself ! Except back then they were called indentured servants. The man would likely not have owned slaves himself had he not been captured from the country of Angola and brought to America as an indentured servant a polite phrase for SLAVE . As far as i know there is not a single statues of this man. By all means if you know of one please share.

    Point being since you can’t figure it out on your own, It was a way of life back then, even black men participated, yet all your yapping is only about how the whites only are at the foot of the blame, why after all these years it’s accepted to destroy property illegally? what if I found the color of your house offensive, would it give me the right to bulldoze it down?

    Wow it may have been a way of life , a lot of things were that are not acceptable today , you know like drinking and driving ! Still don’t understand what any off this has to do with statues of white racist traitors being removed ? What if the color of your skin was not white ? You just may have a different perspective .

    Beast
    Posts: 1123
    #1950008

    Wow it may have been a way of life , a lot of things were that are not acceptable today , you know like drinking and driving ! Still don’t understand what any off this has to do with statues of white racist traitors being removed ? What if the color of your skin was not white ? You just may have a different perspective .
    [/quote]
    And you just became outraged now? tell the truth, your only outraged now to jump on the bandwagon now, and if they want to remove any statues fine, but do it legally, this mob rule crap doesn’t fly with me.

    Gitchi Gummi
    Posts: 3031
    #1950012

    Since slavery had been in those states since the beginning of time, the populous probably thought of them as a right. Much like some view guns today.

    Since the beginning of time??? Wow that’s a really long time.

    lindyrig79
    Forest Lake / Lake Mille Lacs
    Posts: 5797
    #1950013

    Grouse, very eloquent as usual. Don, you make the point also. I don’t think there is any debate the Civil War was about slavery. I’ve never argued or debated that.

    What nobody can give an answer to, is where do you draw the line?? So the confederacy is bad, OK, take down the statues, and let’s not talk about it. Wait… Columbus was also a part of that time and fought with / killed native Americans…. let’s not talk about him either. Wait… George Washington himself owned slaves. Let’s rename our Nations Capital and everything else that has to do with him. Matter of fact, all of us white God-fearing people should really be ashamed of everything and anything having to do with history.

    Can’t you see it just will never end??

    Don Meier
    Butternut Wisconsin
    Posts: 1659
    #1950022

    Grouse, very eloquent as usual. Don, you make the point also. I don’t think there is any debate the Civil War was about slavery. I’ve never argued or debated that.

    What nobody can give an answer to, is where do you draw the line?? So the confederacy is bad, OK, take down the statues, and let’s not talk about it. Wait… Columbus was also a part of that time and fought with / killed native Americans…. let’s not talk about him either. Wait… George Washington himself owned slaves. Let’s rename our Nations Capital and everything else that has to do with him. Matter of fact, all of us white God-fearing people should really be ashamed of everything and anything having to do with history.

    Can’t you see it just will never end??

    I say just the opposite i say do talk about . We need to at least acknowledge that it’s even happened . How many out there still think the HOLOCAUST NEVER HAPPENED ? We will never be able to make this right 100 percent . The problem is the criminal justice system is broken , there is a justice system for white people , one for black people and one for the police . Systemic racism is real people need not wonder why if your skin color is not white and you get pulled over are you going to die today because you were reaching for your licence in the center console . I think it a stretch for some to comprehend the protest /riots are only the system of the problem . The protest/riots /looting / pulling down statues are all systems of a problem .

    Don Meier
    Butternut Wisconsin
    Posts: 1659
    #1950023

    Wow it may have been a way of life , a lot of things were that are not acceptable today , you know like drinking and driving ! Still don’t understand what any off this has to do with statues of white racist traitors being removed ? What if the color of your skin was not white ? You just may have a different perspective .

    And you just became outraged now? tell the truth, your only outraged now to jump on the bandwagon now, and if they want to remove any statues fine, but do it legally, this mob rule crap doesn’t fly with me.
    [/quote] “No” Mr Beast i have held these moral values for a long time . I believe every human being from a very early age knows the difference between right and wrong . It’s up to the individual to make the right choices in life . I learned a long time ago there are no rewards or punishment,s in life ,only consequences.

    mike mulhern
    Posts: 171
    #1950025

    Well Mr Grouse you are right about the slaves and rights but they also argued about economic rights and the right to trade freely with European nations like England without northern interference and taxation. That taxation of the souths primary goods that was not used for southern interests led towards a split and distrust of the federal government. Slavery was undoubtably the final to get on one side or the other of the line. There was more than twenty years of heated discussion on this topic across america. Some of the most interesting history of our country. It would be fun to discuss the ramifications of each decision in congress and how it affected the outcome and our history as a result. The appeasement that went both ways to prevent war is amazing. History is facinating.
    Mike

    David Anderson
    Dayton, MN
    Posts: 506
    #1950028

    Well Mr Grouse you are right about the slaves and rights but they also argued about economic rights and the right to trade freely with European nations like England without northern interference and taxation. That taxation of the souths primary goods that was not used for southern interests led towards a split and distrust of the federal government. Slavery was undoubtably the final to get on one side or the other of the line. There was more than twenty years of heated discussion on this topic across america. Some of the most interesting history of our country. It would be fun to discuss the ramifications of each decision in congress and how it affected the outcome and our history as a result. The appeasement that went both ways to prevent war is amazing. History is facinating.
    Mike

    Mike, interesting observation. If you look back at the Revolutionary War, the southern states were actually loyal to England as the purpose of the English colonies around the world were to provide Britain with essential raw materials as well as a market for their industries. England needed the south’s cotton for their new textile mills and tobacco was the raging fad in England. You are correct regarding the south’s rejection of the federal control from the north of it’s industries, especially to the perceived unfair taxation of goods sold to England, was a point of contention. The Southern States rejected the notion that the north could control the south, who were still loyal to England as they were a huge and important customer. You are right, slavery was right in the middle of this conflict, if you look, who brought the slaves over to work the plantations for cotton, tobacco, and sugar. Slavery was on it’s way out at the time however it was just another issue that the south had with the north, State’s Rights. Not saying it is right, just saying that in 1860 those were the issues. You are correct, history is fascinating and to pretend it doesn’t exist is….well as they say, history tends to repeat itself! Thanks for the great post.

    An interesting side comment, in the early 1700’s Boston was the center of the world’s rum industry as they would trade inferior dried cod to the British held islands in the Caribbean used as protein for the slaves working the sugar plantations, for Molasses, which in turn was made into rum. After the Revolutionary War was over England stopped trade with the New United States and no more molasses, no more rum. The new states needed something to take it’s place and Whiskey became the alcoholic drink of choice because the US grew it’s own grains. The new Government decided to tax the whiskey production and we had the first conflict between the newly Federal government and the states called the Whiskey Rebellion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiskey_Rebellion

    b-curtis
    Farmington, MN
    Posts: 1438
    #1950076

    The history channel just had a docu-series on Grant. It was pretty good. It did say that writers sympathetic to the South have turned the civil war from being about slavery to States rights and made Lee the hero and mostly have forgotten Grant. It also talked about how Grant battle the Klan who was suppressing black voters after the 15A. Kind of ironic that a Republican Prez in 1870 fought against voter suppression while current Republicans seem to need it.

    belletaine
    Nevis, MN
    Posts: 5116
    #1950086

    Grouse, I think every American should visit Gettysburg, home to the largest battle ever fought in the western hemisphere.

    suzuki
    Woodbury, Mn
    Posts: 18623
    #1950125

    Nobody in this country believes in slavery or that any statues support that claim. All we have here is mentally deranged people, programmed by the msm and brought together by all their sick social media sites, destroying art and history. They arent normal and they are being “allowed” to act this way. If the networks starting presenting the other side (the normal side, the overwhelming majority side) this could end.

    Ryan Wilson
    Posts: 333
    #1950199

    Grouse, very eloquent as usual. Don, you make the point also. I don’t think there is any debate the Civil War was about slavery. I’ve never argued or debated that.

    What nobody can give an answer to, is where do you draw the line?? So the confederacy is bad, OK, take down the statues, and let’s not talk about it. Wait… Columbus was also a part of that time and fought with / killed native Americans…. let’s not talk about him either. Wait… George Washington himself owned slaves. Let’s rename our Nations Capital and everything else that has to do with him. Matter of fact, all of us white God-fearing people should really be ashamed of everything and anything having to do with history.

    Can’t you see it just will never end??

    Yeah, a most “god fearing” people usually use god as an excuse for their actions. Where is the line drawn? Nowhere, because you people have been fearing “god” the entire time when you should have been fearing man…

    If you ask me, they are tearing down the wrong statues.

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    lindyrig79
    Forest Lake / Lake Mille Lacs
    Posts: 5797
    #1950214

    I see you are part of the angry liberal media-driven mob, Ryan. Pretty sad.

    Don Meier
    Butternut Wisconsin
    Posts: 1659
    #1950223

    Nobody in this country believes in slavery or that any statues support that claim. All we have here is mentally deranged people, programmed by the msm and brought together by all their sick social media sites, destroying art and history. They arent normal and they are being “allowed” to act this way. If the networks starting presenting the other side (the normal side, the overwhelming majority side) this could end.

    Wow “The normal side ” ??? I thought people want justice for every American ? Evidently some people would like to ignore the fact . I can guarantee as long as the justice system stays the way it is this will NEVER end.

    Walleyestudent Andy Cox
    Garrison MN-Mille Lacs
    Posts: 4484
    #1950247

    Evidently some people would like to ignore the fact . I can guarantee as long as the justice system stays the way it is this will NEVER end.

    I am no liberal, in fact far from it.

    But anyone who believes there is truly equal justice for all in this country is only fooling themselves.

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