Synthetic oil question

Ya Sheldon, I’m replacing the front and back oilpan seals and their the rope type, old style plus the regular side pan seals. This is evidently the only seals they have forsale for this motor because I’ve checked all 4 different auto parts stores. They don’t sell complete oil pumps anymore but do sell the gears and springs and haven’t checked Ebay. Also thought about replacing the cam bearings too and taking out the lifters and taking them apart and cleaning them, I have one that’s tapping. This engine runs good and is very responsive but I can hear the lifter, their all on one bar tube and cant be adjusted. I also thought about when I have the pan off plastigaugeing the rod bearings and buying oversize bearings. I haven’t made a compression test yet, I want the motor running right and then I’ll do it but the compression is good the way the engine responds. I heard that the synthetic oil is so lubricating that you can’t use it in a new motor or the rings won’t seat, after they do its ok.

Get yourself a ‘topsider’ pump. It sucks the oil out from the top at the dipstick tube. No need to go under your car and remove the oil drain plug. Studies have shown that they actually drain more oil than by removing the plug. Makes oil change a breeze. Another tip is NOT to use synthetic oil if your owner’s manual recommends regular oil. If you use synthetic oil when you’re not supposed to, it will damage your seals and cause leaks. Again, check your owner’s manual. Source: auto mechanic for over 30 years. Thomas Falater

mossydan wrote:

I changed oil before I ever started it and the guy at the counter said to put Rotella diesel oil in it because it had additives for diesels that would be good for the motor,

I’ve noticed this is a fad now for guys to want to run diesel motor oil in stuff. This seems to an extension of guys wanting to constantly run all kinds of additives and snake oils in every tank of fuel. It’s become kind of magic potion, I hear guys claiming all kinds of freaky-deaky magic benefits from diesel-rated oils run in gasoline engines.

The main difference and the reason you should NOT run diesel oil in a modern gasoline auto engine is that diesel oils have additives that over time can damage the catalytic converter on a car. I get that this doesn’t apply to a 67 Buick, which probably doesn’t’ have a cat, but this is the main reason why this fad is a bad idea.

Beyond that, the oils are very similar, they have different detergents and additives, but from what I’ve read these amount to very little difference. Other biggest issue I see is some guys want to try to run higher viscosity oils like 15W-50 that are more available in diesel oils. This is a hugely bad idea IMO for a long list of reasons.

What’s wrong with good old 10W-30 like Mr. Buick intended?

Grouse

Tom, back in 67 I’m pretty sure all they had were straight weight oils, I don’t remember any multi grade oils anyway. I’ve always used 30 weight in summer and winter. It starts a little slower in the winter but the oils still where its supposed to be just like any other weight oil. No catalytic converter on this car, just glass packs.

I took the intake manifold off and got a look at the area between the heads. Very little buildup of any thick oil so the crankcase is probably pretty clean too. A mechanic told me one time if you want to clean the inside of your engine just put a quart of diesel fuel or kerosene in with the oil but drain out a quart before you do it. After 500 miles he said change the oil. He said putting in just one quart will not hurt the engine but no more. These were old school engines and not the new ones so I don’t know what it would do to these engines, if anything.

synthetic oil will not damage gaskets and seals….period.

big_g wrote:

synthetic oil will not damage gaskets and seals….period.

Not true. If your older engine has higher miles and has never had synthetic oil in it switching over could be a big mistake. I’ve seen it on multiple occasions, switch to synthetic and a couple days later the engine is leaking oil from every possible orifice. Change back to conventional oil and within a few hundred miles they quit leaking…..
Synthetics can be great in modern engines but regardless of oil type having regular maintenance and keeping the engine full of oil is far more important.
I see more synthetic running engines come in way overdue and low on oil than I do conventional oil running engines..
I run a blend in my 05 GMC 5.3 and have 220,000 without any oil usage. I bought the truck six years ago with 100k and it had been getting Amsoil since new. It was using a quart per thousand miles when I got it. Switched it to a blend and regular change intervals (3000 miles) and it stopped using oil….
This is just my opinion after being an auto tech the last eleven years.

big_g wrote:

synthetic oil will not damage gaskets and seals….period.

I get the feeling this was directed at me,if not,I apologize in advance,I never said it would damage gaskets and seals,I said it will creep past them.
why will it?? because the detergents in synthetic oil is potent and it will clean up carbon deposits,sludge from lower grade oils if used,and varnish.
I have been at this for forty years now and have seen this very issue many times in my life whether it was in a tractor,car,what ever.

big_g,you are right,synthetic oils will not damage seals,it can however damage gaskets that were not designed to with stand the potency of synthetic oils detergents,ie,the paper type gaskets that used glue in its original make up.
I know its a different deal,but look at what dexos antifreeze did to the plastic intake gaskets on many GM cars and trucks.

and yes,I know dissimilar metal expansion from thermal cycling played a role in this also,but it (dexos) made the plastic break down quickly and let the scrubbing action play heck with it and the synthetic rubber part would cave in under pressure when hot,and vacuum when cold from the cooling systems actions.

in response to what grouse said about snake oil remedies,I dont believe in them either,would absolutely not recommend any diesel oil in a modern gas engine unless the mil spec and the manufacturer said it could be used as converter damage will occur.
the reason I would recommend using rottella or any other high grade diesel oil in an OLDER gas engine is the fact that it is easier to find in a straight weight formula as many of those older engines required it,and many times it will have the additives you cannot find in modern straight weight oils that will benefit those older engines.

another thing is that the older engines clearances when new back then were sloppy at best and straight weight oils lend their abilities well to that issue.
the metallurgical properties of todays engines are so much more advanced as well as the quality of todays oil that we no longer need a straight weight oil other than in air cooled engines,and yes,I know many air cooled engines of today run multi weight oils,but they are light duty,or require synthetic oil.

another issue is the temperatures we run engines at today and the oils of yesteryear wont stand up to it,this is in part to why you see para blends being used,and yes,I think instead of using those,go to a full synthetic oil.

me personally,I run synthetic oil in everything I own,including my 1995 merc outboard.

Most engine oils are now formulated with Group II (hydrotreated) or a mixture of Group I (conventional mineral oil) and Group II base oils to meet the latest API gasoline and diesel performance designations.

Because Group III and Group IV (PAO) base oils are both considered synthetics (since 1999), any oil labeled as a full synthetic would contain either Group III or PAO, or both. Any oil that is labeled as a partial synthetic, semi-synthetic or synthetic blend would contain Group I or Group II (mineral oil) plus some amount of Group III oil or PAO (synthetic). Keep in mind that there is no minimum quantity of synthetic base oil required in order to call a blend a semi-synthetic lubricant.

There are also no designations for end users to know what specific base oils the oil formulator has used, so your question is a bit academic in nature. We would never be able to tell if we were purchasing a Group III engine oil vs. a Group IV (PAO) engine oil.

However, from an academic point of view, I would expect the cleaning ability of a Group III and a PAO to be similar (generally poor). Again, academically, I would expect less risk of seal issues, etc., when switching from a Group III oil (as opposed to a Group I oil) to a PAO, as the Group III oil and PAO are chemically similar.

Ester synthetics have a higher degree of solvency than Group II, III or PAO base oils. This means they will dissolve additives and deposits more readily and may cause some seals to swell slightly. They also can remove some paints. These characteristics (other than paint removal) can be beneficial, so some oil formulators will add small amounts of ester base oils into their synthetic (Group III and PAO) formulations to improve these properties.

The reason for this post is to let readers know that their is a huge variance in the way manufacturers formulate and blend automotive oils. Your best indicator on the amount of ” true synthetic” base oil that is in a quart of oil will be apparent by its cost. Group IV and V base oils are far more expensive then group I II and III ( mineral oils ). Lots of oils being marketed as full synthetic without using a Drop of group IV or V.

http://media.noria.com/sites/magazine_images/201210/josh_graph_oils.jpg

Some confusion has arisen recently regarding the use of the word “synthetic.” Several petrochemical companies have developed processes involving catalytic conversion of crude oil base stock under high pressures and temperatures in the presence of hydrogen to form very high-quality mineral lubricants. These oils, which are known as API Group III, are so highly refined that their properties almost match that of the Group IV synthetics. They are so close in fact that the U.S. court system sided with a manufacturer of these Group III “synthetics” when a lawsuit was brought up for false advertising. Even though these Group III base oils are derived from crude oil, they can now legally, from a marketing standpoint, call them synthetic

So Ace, do you have a recommendation for a 1967 Buick Electra 430 CI engine, just off the top of your head? Thanks

big_g wrote:

synthetic oil will not damage gaskets and seals….period.

Wrong. Using synthetic oil if your owner’s manual recommends natural oil will damage your seals and cause leaking. Always check the hard copy of your car’s manual and use the oil that they recommend. They built the car, the engineered it, they put the seals in it and they know which oil you should use. Don’t listen to anyone else. Do what is recommended in your car’s owner’s manual.

#falaterphotography

My car is a 1997 and when I took it to QuickLube they told me that their computer recommends synthetic oil. I showed them my owner’s manual which recommends normal oil. I left and changed the oil myself and used natural oil. My car now has over 300K miles on it and no leaks and no major repairs.

#falaterphotography

Thomas William Falater wrote:

Wrong. Using synthetic oil if your owner’s manual recommends natural oil will damage your seals and cause leaking. Always check the hard copy of your car’s manual and use the oil that they recommend. They built the car, the engineered it, they put the seals in it and they know which oil you should use. Don’t listen to anyone else. Do what is recommended in your car’s owner’s manual.

#falaterphotography

My car is a 1997 and when I took it to QuickLube they told me that their computer recommends synthetic oil. I showed them my owner’s manual which recommends normal oil. I left and changed the oil myself and used natural oil. My car now has over 300K miles on it and no leaks and no major repairs.

#falaterphotography

Not sure where you are getting your info from but your 300k mile vehicle is not proof that synthetic oil damages gaskets.

Way back in 1997 the market for synthetic oils was relatively small compared to today so it would’ve been irresponsible for a car manufacturer to spec their engines to require that oil. A lot of the talk about leaking gaskets came when synthetics were relatively new and when all oils lacked the amount of additives that they contain today. Engines are built to much tighter tolerances today as well.

Conventional oils have evolved a lot in this period as well. They now perform much better on startups and are being made to current manufacturer specs.

If you want to learn more about engine oil, I highly recommend this guys blog. Some really good information in here. Much more than anyone will ever need.

This chapter is a little lesson about synthetic vs conventional oil.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-104/

Thomas William Falater wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>big_g wrote:</div>
synthetic oil will not damage gaskets and seals….period.

Wrong. Using synthetic oil if your owner’s manual recommends natural oil will damage your seals and cause leaking. Always check the hard copy of your car’s manual and use the oil that they recommend. They built the car, the engineered it, they put the seals in it and they know which oil you should use. Don’t listen to anyone else. Do what is recommended in your car’s owner’s manual.

#falaterphotography

My car is a 1997 and when I took it to QuickLube they told me that their computer recommends synthetic oil. I showed them my owner’s manual which recommends normal oil. I left and changed the oil myself and used natural oil. My car now has over 300K miles on it and no leaks and no major repairs.

#falaterphotography

Just googled “Falater Photography”, why are you attempting to tag a website devoted to pictures of young girls?

I get a headache reading this bickering, I would use what the car was designed for in 1967, would they newer oils work? Maybe, Maybe not. But if you use conventional oil you can sleep good at night and not worry if your gaskets are going to leak. LOL

On a side note you should go to the car show at the fair grounds this next weekend and talk to other people with cars in that date range and see what they run. Good Luck

Unless you are using extended life mobil one or amsoil and platinum filters i would only go 5,000 miles. we see VVT-variable valve timing issues and premature timing chain guide wear from the 10k intervals. I would recommend you do an oil analysis through a lab if you really want to go 10k. If you think the vehicle manufacturer is looking out for your best interest you are kidding yourself.

Along with longer oil change drain intervals you need to “PULL THE DIPSTICK AND CHECK THE OIL LEVEL” once in awhile. I see way too many cars running 2 qts. low or more.
When you tell them that they’re answer is “it can’t be, the oil thing on the dash says I have 25% left”