sump pump discharge, code question

Quick version: My understanding of the code (Saint Paul) is that the pump must discharge water onto my own property. My pump does that. After it discharges, forces of nature (gravity and soil structure) are allowing the water to run off my property and onto the right of way (sidewalk). I’d like opinions on whether or not I am in compliance here.

Long version: Had an unfriendly visit from a city inspector (Saint Paul) this week. He informed me my sump pump was illegally draining onto the right of way (sidewalk). We had our system installed 8 years ago by a licensed contractor. We called them yesterday and they confirmed that they pulled a permit for the project and it was approved by the city at that time.

The pump discharges on the south-facing side of our house that’s bordered by a sidewalk and street. From the foundation of the house to the sidewalk is just over 12 feet, with the last 6 feet being a pretty severe slope down toward the sidewalk. The sump discharge pipe extends 6 feet from the foundation onto my property, so it ends just about where the downward slope begins. The soil on our property is so tight that the yard can’t absorb the water fast enough, and it just runs down the slope and onto the sidewalk. The code also states that a sump can’t drain toward the foundation of the house — which would defeat the purpose of the drain tile system anyway — so I am at a bit of a loss. If I don’t discharge the pump near the foundation, the water is going to end up on the sidewalk, period. Gravity is like that.

The inspector was rude and refused to give me any real ideas or details, he said to basically wait for a notice from the city to arrive via mail. In the meantime, my anxiety is growing as we are already in-process on finishing a bedroom in the basement. Any thoughts are appreciated — especially from people who do this kind of work and are actually familiar with the code. Thanks!

I’m not a contractor in MN so I am only going to comment. Building inspectors are there to not only identify a code violation but to also help with remedy. If a permit was pulled and inspections where approved I see no reason that there is a code violation unless you somehow you changed your landscaping from when it was initially installed. If the soil will not take the moisture what else are you supposed to do? In our area I have in the past when there was no other solution worked with the city and actually attached it to the storm sewer. Now remember this was an extreme case. I know the feeling of being pushed against the wall feeling like nobody wants to help. I could go on and on how inspectors attitudes have changed. But then again why not everyone else’s has too. Good Luck.

supercat wrote:

If the soil will not take the moisture what else are you supposed to do? In our area I have in the past when there was no other solution worked with the city and actually attached it to the storm sewer. Now remember this was an extreme case.

This is exactly how I feel. The inspector mentioned that in very rare cases they would approve a plan to connect to the storm sewer. I think that’s probably a bad solution because there is no storm sewer gutter/drain on our side of the street. When it rains like yesterday, the water just pools up against the curb in low spots on my side of the street. The street is also “right of way” so I can’t imagine they’d accept that as a solution in this case.

As far as I’m concerned you did the correct thing and they don’t have a leg to stand on. You did the correct steps if there is something wrong then it’s the inspectors fault for signing off on it 8 years ago. You will probably have to waste some of your time to prove you are right but you will have to play hardball. I would start by trying to work with them on a solution but don’t let them tell you it is your fault.

supercat wrote:

You did the correct steps if there is something wrong then it’s the inspectors fault for signing off on it 8 years ago.

This is how I would approach it too. Retrieve that approval by a licensed contractor and use that to make your case. If the city approved it, and the current city official works for that same entity, they are essentially contradicting each other.

I guess the problem is that water is probably slowly just eroding the ground where the discharge pipe is, so the problem is likely just going to get worse. Is there any way you could attach a turn style attachment and pump it to the right or left 90 degrees?

gimruis wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>supercat wrote:</div>
You did the correct steps if there is something wrong then it’s the inspectors fault for signing off on it 8 years ago.

This is how I would approach it too. Retrieve that approval by a licensed contractor and use that to make your case. If the city approved it, and the current city official works for that same entity, they are essentially contradicting each other.

I guess the problem is that water is probably slowly just eroding the ground where the discharge pipe is, so the problem is likely just going to get worse. Is there any way you could attach a turn style attachment and pump it to the right or left 90 degrees?

Turning the discharge 90 degrees left would run into our driveway and again just drain down into city right of way. Turning it 90 to the right, and it’s essentially the same issue going down the entire length of the side of our house. I could move the discharge laterally but we still only have 12 feet from foundation to sidewalk, with half of that sloping considerably the entire way toward the sidewalk.

One possible solution I’ve been working up in my head is to discharge the sump into a 55 gallon rain barrel. The barrel would be filled in less than 24 hours during a rain event, because our sump pump runs a lot. I’d have to run a long soaker hose from the barrel, parallel to the house. That could possibly disburse the water over a much larger area and allow it soak into this long strip of grass — approx 75′ x 12′ — which runs between the foundation and the sidewalk. I could also empty the barrel periodically by using that water to wash cars or water the trees, etc.

I thought about doing something similar, sans rain barrel — just running a long flexible hose off the pvc discharge and drilling holes over the length of the flex. But I think the pressure from the pump would be so strong that water would be bursting outta the holes in the hose and spray every which way. My thought with the barrel is it could act as a temporary resting place for the discharge, allowing the pressure to settle and eventually trickle it out over a large area.

I’d get your contractor docs and previous permit in order, and submit that to the inspector. As Supercat noted, contrary to StP inspector beliefs they are supposed to assist with acceptable remedies. We had many issues w/ St Paul inspectors when we lived there, and common sense is not part of their training (for example one expected us to jump thru the hoops to close a previously opened permit from the 80’s, which was about 10 buyers before my wife). Good luck!

I can only comment on this and I’m not offering legal advice at all, but St. Paul officials don’t always fully understand or even know their own regs. I lived there most of my life, and I see what’s happening in my parents’ neighborhood today. It’s a mess. Stand your ground on it and make some calls you might find someone there who is willing to help. As noted above, they are SUPPOSED to help.

Appreciate the feedback. Will request copies of my permits from original contractor — since it was 8 years ago I don’t know if they would maintain those files, but the city should have a copy?

I am definitely willing to work with them on a solution involving the discharge outside the house, even willing to spend some money. Strongly opposed to a solution which involves moving the location of the sump basin and discharge pipe from the interior.

Just remember, in most cases NOT ALL these people were flipping burgers or driving a Uber a year ago. The inspectors I dealt with for 30 years had no experience in the field they inspected. They were hired, sat in a class for a couple of days and turned loose on the public. I had many that when things were explained to them said “oh, ok I didn’t know that.” My last bit of advice is this….they look at themselves as important civil servants who the public must bow down to. Make them feel important, ask them for their opinions and let them know you really want to work with them. Never get pissed at them or threatened them. If you can’t peacefully resolve the issue just go over their heads. Like a good game of poker you have the ace in the hole (permit) although I would make him find his copy or prove you don’t have one.

Had an interesting afternoon digging into records and placing phone calls. I found a history of all the permits pulled for our home, including this one from 2014. Every other permit or complaint is listed as “finaled” or “resolved.” This one is listed as “closed.” The customer service agent at DSI (dpt of safety an inspections) told me this means the work was never “fully inspected and approved.” The permit was pulled and approved, but from the city records perspective, the inspection of the work wasn’t ever approved. They gave me the name/number of the inspector who is associated with the case, called him and left a voicemail. Called my contractor. They said they have city inspectors out the day the work is done, and they wouldn’t have poured the concrete over the drain tile in my basement until the inspector signed off on the spot. They asked for some time to talk to the city and get back to me. To me it sounds like somebody in one of those two offices screwed up.

At the same time I received my “correction notice” in the mail today. It says “please relocate the sump pump and gutter discharge locations to prevent the discharge from flowing across or onto the city right of way.” The code they cited is SPLC 34.08 (2). I looked up that code online and it reads like this: “Grading and drainage. All premises shall be graded and maintained so as to drain water away from structures and minimize the accumulation of water on such premises.”

The irony is that I’m doing exactly what this code requests, draining water away from my home

And now you know how government works. You should feel for the people that have to deal with these individuals on a daily basis. Same story all the time and to get them to admit they were wrong is next to impossible. Usually a permit expires after 2 years and you would think they would of mailed you a notice of your permit going to expire and noting that the final has not been done. Have Fun!

Some government officials just blow my mind. It’s ground water for GODS SAKE and ground water comes partly from rain. So who do the idiots write a correction notice to when it rains and the sidewalk gets wet, Mother Nature?

Does your sump pump run at all during the winter causing ice to accumulate, if not then I really don’t see what the issue is.

Install a French drain or drywell. No matter what, you can’t have a constant flow of water onto city sidewalks and streets. They grow moss and slime and get very slick, becoming a safety hazard.

Building Inspectors would be a great campfire discussion.

FWIW – If people in Mpls and St. Paul proper knew how much extra us Contractors charge them when we have to go into these cities because of the thought process of these building Officials/Inspectors they would be at city hall with torches and pitch forks.

Dam – I need a drink just thinking about this.

munchy wrote:

Install a French drain or drywell. No matter what, you can’t have a constant flow of water onto city sidewalks and streets. They grow moss and slime and get very slick, becoming a safety hazard.

What good would a french drain or drywell do if the soil is clay and cannot handle the amount of water that is being put into it? Once the area is filled it will once again come to the surface and run. A high water table or poor permeable soil is not the fault of the homeowner. Also depending on the subsoils a drywell of french drain will only make the water problem worse for the basement. The best way to get ride of sub terrain water is by putting it on the service so evaporation and vegetation can take care of it. Also if you want to talk about safety hazards ever see mold in a wet basement and what it does to the respiratory system?

dirtywater wrote:

One possible solution I’ve been working up in my head is to discharge the sump into a 55 gallon rain barrel. The barrel would be filled in less than 24 hours during a rain event, because our sump pump runs a lot. I’d have to run a long soaker hose from the barrel, parallel to the house. That could possibly disburse the water over a much larger area and allow it soak into this long strip of grass — approx 75′ x 12′ — which runs between the foundation and the sidewalk. I could also empty the barrel periodically by using that water to wash cars or water the trees, etc.

I thought about doing something similar, sans rain barrel — just running a long flexible hose off the pvc discharge and drilling holes over the length of the flex. But I think the pressure from the pump would be so strong that water would be bursting outta the holes in the hose and spray every which way. My thought with the barrel is it could act as a temporary resting place for the discharge, allowing the pressure to settle and eventually trickle it out over a large area.

Have you dug your soil to a considerable depth at any time to know the soil structure at depth? A lot of areas have clay but not all clay and layers of clay are equal. Where we built there is some sandy loam on top of deeper clay. However, the layer of clay is not that thick and you get into some sandy gravel just beneath it that drains reasonably well.

IF you can find exactly how deep your clay is, that’d answer whether or not something like your above strategy or even a french drain with some minor excavation would work. A lot of garage drains on flat parcels are run to a 55 gallon drum with the bottom cut out adjacent to the garage, set deep enough to get to soil that drains well.

My guess are that his soils are heavy and that’s why the sump pump in the basement is running. If there was gravel lower the pump would not run.

In Wisconsin, this is the table we go by:
https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/code/admin_code/sps/safety_and_buildings_and_environment/380_387/382.pdf#page=38
#11 and note b: Unless prohibited by local municipality and when no nuisance is created.

munchy wrote:

Install a French drain or drywell. No matter what, you can’t have a constant flow of water onto city sidewalks and streets. They grow moss and slime and get very slick, becoming a safety hazard.

There is literally no flat ground where a dry well could be installed — and the water table / soil content makes that a bad option anyway as supercat explains above.

buckybadger wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Dirty Water wrote:</div>

I thought about doing something similar, sans rain barrel — just running a long flexible hose off the pvc discharge and drilling holes over the length of the flex. But I think the pressure from the pump would be so strong that water would be bursting outta the holes in the hose and spray every which way. My thought with the barrel is it could act as a temporary resting place for the discharge, allowing the pressure to settle and eventually trickle it out over a large area.

Have you dug your soil to a considerable depth at any time to know the soil structure at depth? A lot of areas have clay but not all clay and layers of clay are equal. Where we built there is some sandy loam on top of deeper clay. However, the layer of clay is not that thick and you get into some sandy gravel just beneath it that drains reasonably well.

IF you can find exactly how deep your clay is, that’d answer whether or not something like your above strategy or even a french drain with some minor excavation would work. A lot of garage drains on flat parcels are run to a 55 gallon drum with the bottom cut out adjacent to the garage, set deep enough to get to soil that drains well.

supercat wrote:

My guess are that his soils are heavy and that’s why the sump pump in the basement is running. If there was gravel lower the pump would not run.

Yeah, we have the worst of both worlds — we’re basically built atop a spring AND the soil is incredibly tight/heavy. When we had an egress window installed it took the guy 2 full days of work just to dig it out.

I tried the option quoted above. I had an extra length of black flexible tube around — about 30 feet or so. I drilled holes every 3 feet and connected it to the discharge and ran it parallel to the foundation about halfway between foundation and sidewalk. So far it’s a huge improvement. Dispersing the water to a wider area of my property over a longer period of time. Some still trickles onto the sidewalk enough to leave a wet spot, but not enough to pool up into a big puddle like before. I also edged the grass on the boulevard on the other side of the sidewalk, allowing the water better access to that turf instead of just pooling on the sidewalk.

My last step, I think, is going to be dig a couple of trenches in the boulevard, perpendicular to the sidewalk and street. Place them strategically where the sidewalk is wettest, fill with river rock. Just trying to encourage the water to keep moving past the sidewalk.

Like I said, I’m willing to work to improve the situation — just didn’t appreciate the attitude of mr. inspector, his lack of specific helpful suggestions, and the whole mess with the permit/inspection not being properly completed in the first place.

That sucks. We live in an area with heavy soil and very active sumps, as well. Several years ago, the city came through and redid the roads and storm sewers, and for many homeowners, installed PVC connections in the storm sewer catch basins so that we can plumb our sump outlets directly into the catch basins. It’s extremely nice, but it sounds like that’s not an option for you.

I know quite a few people that run theirs into basement drains during the winter. I know that’s not cool with the city, but sometimes, a guy doesn’t have many options.

Ralph Wiggum wrote:

I know quite a few people that run theirs into basement drains during the winter. I know that’s not cool with the city, but sometimes, a guy doesn’t have many options.

Ralphie, I have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about here.

Like I said, I’m willing to work to improve the situation — just didn’t appreciate the attitude of mr. inspector, his lack of specific helpful suggestions, and the whole mess with the permit/inspection not being properly completed in the first place.
[/quote]

Unfortunately Inspectors over reach quite often.
If you want to move it up the ladder contact MN Dept. of labor and industry and ask for help.

dirtywater wrote:

Ralph Wiggum wrote:
I know quite a few people that run theirs into basement drains during the winter. I know that’s not cool with the city, but sometimes, a guy doesn’t have many options.

Ralphie, I have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about here.

He is saying that the water can be diverted to your sanitary sewer line. Cities usually don’t want that water in the sewer as it strains the treatment plant with extra water that doesn’t need treating. My city came and physically inspected that our sump was not connected to the sewer line.

gizmoguy wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Dirty Water wrote:</div>
Ralph Wiggum wrote:
I know quite a few people that run theirs into basement drains during the winter. I know that’s not cool with the city, but sometimes, a guy doesn’t have many options.

Ralphie, I have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about here.

He is saying that the water can be diverted to your sanitary sewer line. Cities usually don’t want that water in the sewer as it strains the treatment plant with extra water that doesn’t need treating. My city came and physically inspected that our sump was not connected to the sewer line.

I will repeat — I have no knowledge or experience with such shenanigans!

Eelpoutguy wrote:

Like I said, I’m willing to work to improve the situation — just didn’t appreciate the attitude of mr. inspector, his lack of specific helpful suggestions, and the whole mess with the permit/inspection not being properly completed in the first place.

Unfortunately Inspectors over reach quite often.
If you want to move it up the ladder contact MN Dept. of labor and industry and ask for help.

[/quote]

Thanks for the tip!

dirtywater wrote:

I will repeat — I have no knowledge or experience with such shenanigans!

Funny how it works out sometimes — the same inspector who was an unhelpful toad in person was pretty dang nice on the phone and provided me with the info I needed. Maybe he didn’t get the reaction he was looking for from me when he flashed his badge last week, who knows? Anyway, he is on board with the modifications described above, spreading the water over a larger area of grass. The sidewalk still gets moist but no puddles.

All in all this is probably how the system is supposed to “work” — neighbor complains, city flexes their muscle, homeowner tries to make it better. To me the most annoying thing is how people just don’t talk to each other. I would’ve made the same modifications to my system had the neighbor addressed it directly with me. My only concern at this point is that the neighbor isn’t going to be as easily satisfied as the city, but we’ll deal with that if it comes.

Thanks again for the advice folks.