Sportsmen for the Boundary Waters

______________ wrote:

I’m for less growth and less resource use. No growth would be even better. We have to learn to live within our means eventually, nows as good a time as any to start trimming back the fat and waste and learn some real lessons.

I 100% agree with this. However, it’s a Utopian fantasy that will never occur.

Our population will always grow (until plague, famine, war, etc kills us off). And with that growth will come the need for these metals to help maintain our existing technology and create additional technology that is inevitable.

I would rather mine the minerals here, under the strictest environmental regulations on the planet, vs. foreign countries polluting the earth an importing it into the USA.

DeRangedFishinguy wrote:

I began posting in this topic because of the slew of miss-information and ignorance being thrown around. I felt that it needed a voice from “the other side” to try and balance it out. Maybe at least get someone to attempt to look at the other side of the coin for a change. This thread is about trying to tear down the future of Northern MN, a place I call home. Of course I’m going to chime in.

If you’re going to call the other side a slew of misinformation than you need to present some proof that the mining companies aren’t doing the same. That’s what they are being accused of in court and they lost. People smarter and more powerful than you have made a decision.

Is it’s up to you to prove otherwise.

There goes my New Years resolution.

DeRangedFishinguy wrote:

I 100% agree with this. However, it’s a Utopian fantasy that will never occur.

As is the fantasy that these mines can be operated without harming the environment.

Fwiw, I didn’t see Deranged as being a Richard. Just good banter. I disagree with his stance, but am not offended by his tone.

DeRangedFishinguy wrote:

As we as a society move closer to a “greener” energy grid, how do you suppose we build the infrastructure needed to get there? Each and every windmill, solar panel and battery will require mass quantities of the very metals Polymet and Twin Metals will be mining for. Do we just continue on mining them out of 3rd world countries where there are ZERO environmental regulations, just as long as it’s “not in our back yard”? Like Brazil!???

I’ll bite. As an opponent of the TM mine, it’s not my responsibility to identify how or where you should get it from. This is an asinine argument that has nothing to do with why it shouldn’t be built here.

biggill wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>DeRangedFishinguy wrote:</div>
I began posting in this topic because of the slew of miss-information and ignorance being thrown around. I felt that it needed a voice from “the other side” to try and balance it out. Maybe at least get someone to attempt to look at the other side of the coin for a change. This thread is about trying to tear down the future of Northern MN, a place I call home. Of course I’m going to chime in.

If you’re going to call the other side a slew of misinformation than you need to present some proof that the mining companies aren’t doing the same. That’s what they are being accused of in court and they lost. People smarter and more powerful than you have made a decision.

Is it’s up to you to prove otherwise.

There goes my New Years resolution.

Sorry about your resolution. Best to not make them, just sets a guy up for failure all the time!

The proof is in their mining proposals, permits, etc. Have you ever bothered to read them at all? I choose to trust the science and engineering in them over what someone from a anti-mining organization claims COULD happen. Sure, not everything they claim is false, but they lean on past mistakes pretty heavy and don’t bother to detail the advancements and positive steps taken to prevent those incidents from happening again. I also have attended the open meetings that were offered. I went to them back when I was against Polymet, but I went in with an open mind. My proof also lies in my experiences working with Engineers and doing actual testing to satisfy Environmental permits for mining and construction. I’ve asked everyone here to do some research into that. It’s on you to follow through and form your conclusions at that point. It changed my perception. I also trust the State of MN Regulatory process. It’s insane what all has been required of Polymet, and they have satisfied every bit of it. Yet some wacko judges that are clearly being paid off by the anti-mining groups continue to hold this project up and pump out more scare tactics and fear mongering to the masses. And the masses gobble it up…

DeRangedFishinguy wrote:

It’s insane what all has been required of Polymet, and they have satisfied every bit of it.

The EIS studes I’ve read state that PolyMet and Twin Metals would have to be responsible for any and all abatement for up to 500 years – excuse me for saying but I’m gonna err on the side of no action vs someone, somewhere saying they can handle that responsibility for such a huge period of time. I mean, USA is only 243 years right now! No thanks.

Interesting arguments on both sides. Truth is that the Duluth Complex,(there are plenty of scientific articles about the Duluth Complex, google it) a unique geographical area in Minnesota, is one of the few areas on dry earth where iron, copper, cobalt, palladium, platinum, gold, and other precious and critical rare earth minerals are relatively easy to extract. This complex is the result of massive magma deposits billions of years ago that actually stretch from the Brainerd area, through the “iron range”, under Lake Superior, and continuing NE where Baffin Island is all iron, but difficult to access. The Minnesota Iron Range basically built this country, provided essential materials for the defeating the Axis in WW2. Today this area contains the 2nd largest known reserves of copper in the world, has significant deposits of cobalt, palladium, essential minerals that provide a strategic advantage to the US in being able to advance technology. You can bet that all of these anti mining discussions will be mute if the United States is cut off from any of these strategic metals, so far we have been lucky to get copper from Chile, cobalt from the Congo. Most people don’t realize that China controls all the rare earth magnet technology…if you need a rare earth magnet you are reliant upon China. Cut off this supply and most people don’t even have a clue what it’s effect would be. I would guarantee that the area in discussion is on the list of critical and strategic metals reserves and when the US government decides it needs them, it will get them. I am not opposed to environmental arguments but face the facts, just like fracking has made the US independent of foreign oil, the Duluth Complex has the ability to do the same thing in sensitive critical metals needs. As Biggill states: “As an opponent of the TM mine, it’s not my responsibility to identify how or where you should get it from. This is an asinine argument that has nothing to do with why it shouldn’t be built here.” He is correct but at some point he will have to make a decision as there may be a time and it could be soon where we might not be able to “get it from” so now what… without these strategic metals, give up your cell phones, electric cars, computers, and all the technology we enjoy. No easy answers however one thing we do know, we have relatively easy access to these minerals.

DeRangedFishinguy wrote:

I also trust the State of MN Regulatory process.

As do do I and the environmental groups. Which is exactly why we are where we are.

DeRangedFishinguy wrote:

Yet some wacko judges that are clearly being paid off by the anti-mining groups continue to hold this project up and pump out more scare tactics and fear mongering to the masses. And the masses gobble it up…

Wacko judges? Because they want to assure the regulatory process has been followed? The inconsistencies brought to light need to be investigated.

One thing I learned today about the PM mine it would operate for 20 years and that active mechanical water treatment will be needed for at least 200 years at the mine site and for at least 500 years at the play site. That’s quite the burden.

David Anderson wrote:

Interesting arguments on both sides. Truth is that the Duluth Complex,(there are plenty of scientific articles about the Duluth Complex, google it) a unique geographical area in Minnesota, is one of the few areas on dry earth where iron, copper, cobalt, palladium, platinum, gold, and other precious and critical rare earth minerals are relatively easy to extract. This complex is the result of massive magma deposits billions of years ago that actually stretch from the Brainerd area, through the “iron range”, under Lake Superior, and continuing NE where Baffin Island is all iron, but difficult to access. The Minnesota Iron Range basically built this country, provided essential materials for the defeating the Axis in WW2. Today this area contains the 2nd largest known reserves of copper in the world, has significant deposits of cobalt, palladium, essential minerals that provide a strategic advantage to the US in being able to advance technology. You can bet that all of these anti mining discussions will be mute if the United States is cut off from any of these strategic metals, so far we have been lucky to get copper from Chile, cobalt from the Congo. Most people don’t realize that China controls all the rare earth magnet technology…if you need a rare earth magnet you are reliant upon China. Cut off this supply and most people don’t even have a clue what it’s effect would be. I would guarantee that the area in discussion is on the list of critical and strategic metals reserves and when the US government decides it needs them, it will get them. I am not opposed to environmental arguments but face the facts, just like fracking has made the US independent of foreign oil, the Duluth Complex has the ability to do the same thing in sensitive critical metals needs. As Biggill states: “As an opponent of the TM mine, it’s not my responsibility to identify how or where you should get it from. This is an asinine argument that has nothing to do with why it shouldn’t be built here.” He is correct but at some point he will have to make a decision as there may be a time and it could be soon where we might not be able to “get it from” so now what… without these strategic metals, give up your cell phones, electric cars, computers, and all the technology we enjoy. No easy answers however one thing we do know, we have relatively easy access to these minerals.

I don’t think we’d be having this conversation at all if the track record of sulfide mining wasn’t so bad.

biggill wrote:

I don’t think we’d be having this conversation at all if the track record of sulfide mining wasn’t so bad.

💯…As stated earlier in this thread, the US Forest Service found 100% of copper sulfide mines had leaks. Not acceptable when you have one of the largest freshwater reserves and a pristine water resource in the BWCA a few miles away from the mines.

Water. What does it matter if we have smart phones if we can’t use our water. As many people much more intelligent than me have professed, fresh water will be the world’s most valuable resource in the near future.

Why screw that up?

biggill wrote:

I don’t think we’d be having this conversation at all if the track record of sulfide mining wasn’t so bad.

💯…As stated earlier in this thread, the US Forest Service found 100% of copper sulfide mines had leaks. Not acceptable when you have one of the largest freshwater reserves and a pristine water resource in the BWCA a few miles away from the mines.

Water. What does it matter if we have smart phones if we can’t use our water. As many people much more intelligent than me have professed, fresh water will be the world’s most valuable resource in the near future.

Why screw that up?

biggill wrote:

I don’t think we’d be having this conversation at all if the track record of sulfide mining wasn’t so bad.

💯…As stated earlier in this thread, the US Forest Service found 100% of copper sulfide mines had leaks. Not acceptable when you have one of the largest freshwater reserves and a pristine water resource in the BWCA a few miles away from the mines.

Water. What does it matter if we have smart phones if we can’t use our water. As many people much more intelligent than me have professed, fresh water will be the world’s most valuable resource in the near future.

Why screw that up?

biggill wrote:

As do I and the environmental groups. Which is exactly why we are where we are.

Wacko judges? Because they want to assure the regulatory process has been followed? The inconsistencies brought to light need to be investigated.

If you trusted the State, then why do you not support Polymet? Those permits were approved. They gave them the green light. This latest holdup is the work of the deep pockets of the extremist environmental groups. We’ve been here for years. I don’t see anything much changing to the process after they get through this vs before this latest hold up.

One thing I learned today about the PM mine it would operate for 20 years and that active mechanical water treatment will be needed for at least 200 years at the mine site and for at least 500 years at the play site. That’s quite the burden.

It is. But maybe in the not too distant future technology can do away with the waste?

Glad you learned something anyway! That’s the point of my posting.

DeRangedFishinguy wrote:

maybe

Maybe. Maybe not.

Businesses and governments don’t operate on this premise.

Chernobyl
3 Mile Island
Apollo 1
Space Shuttle Challenger
Titanic
Hindenburg
Exxon Valdez
Deepwater Horizon
All designed and built by highly intelligent engineers.
You will say human error and I will say exactly.
Yes I am using ” a device” to write this. It is 18 years old and will not be replaced until it absolutely will not work anymore. Part of our problem is disposable income. We keep buying and throwing away. Millions of tons of recyclable metals are buried each year in landfills.
No I am not from the area but it is one of my favorite place on this earth to visit. The BWCA was set aside to remain what it is for not me or you but all of us and countless unborn generations.
We as a nation and as a world do need resources but we should also reduce and reuse along with finding new. What happens when the metals are gone from the area?

DeRangedFishinguy wrote:

Still a lot of banter but yet no answers. Would be nice to see what you anti mining folks propose we do, or where we mine these minerals other than in MN.

Change my mind. Get me on your side again.

Your baiting just pidgeon whole yourself as you already know the answer. I would only think you would know then of course if you don’t your spreading post-truth.

The range of absurdity, me included, is astounding. Then again its ones own perspective.
Can I conclude this discussion is not personal in the extant that opinion are not held against each other?
We talk, we vent, we voice. Were the same. We learn from discussion

The risk vs. reward involved here doesn’t compute for me. The State gains 300-400 jobs and we risk serious long-lasting pollution if everything doesn’t go perfect. Those jobs simply aren’t worth the risk.

According to the Star Tribune “A leaked e-mail revealed that a Minnesota regulator asked EPA staff not to file their written criticisms of the draft water permit during the public comment period, which had the effect of keeping the EPA’s serious concerns out of the public record.”

Hmm…something doesn’t smell right here. I’m glad the judge put the brakes on until we can figure out where the smell is coming from.

This is a link for an editorial which was written by the former chief of the US Forest Service who has intimate knowledge on the proposed copper sulfide mine. The quote from Teddy Roosevelt really hits home.

https://thehill.com/opinion/energy-environment/478716-lets-prevent-irreparable-harm-to-an-irreplaceable-wilderness-area