Small engine question

Have to share my experience with a new mower and ask everyone’s thoughts.

Bought a new mower in August of last year. Toro, personal pace, not sure of model no. or anything like that. Worked great. Last year I’m bagging leaves, probably in October, and it’s starting really hard. I get through the leaves, can’t find the syphon so I go to run the gas out of it. It will not start for the life of me. It’s only a few months old, so take it to Jerry’s Do it Right since they are the only certified Toro repair place near me. They get it going, said I had water in the gas, changed the gas and spark plug and it runs great. I only buy non oxy, and I use a place that has a dedicated pump, and the gas wasn’t more than a month old. I pick up the mower and immediately drain the gas cause now it’s November. My mistake, I didn’t start it to test it.

Fast forward to last weekend, I go buy all new gas, non oxy, same dedicated pump, put it in the mower, it won’t start. Now I’m pissed. Take it back to the same place, still with the ribbon on it showing that they fixed it. “Hey guys, the warranty work last year didn’t work.” They take it and I get a call 2 days later. It’s running fine, we found oil in the gas. Guy on the phone who is the main mechanic lectures me on old gas (I bought it that day), tells me I must be mixing gas in that same can (I haven’t owned a product that requires mixed gas in 10 years, and that had a dedicated can of it’s own). He then tells me to get rid of the gas can and the gas in it, don’t run it through a vehicle or anything. He also told me to stop using non oxy and start running regular gas through it. I go to pick up the mower, and another person is helping me and is telling me to use only non oxy gas, to get it from a different gas station, and to go ahead and use it up by running it through the vehicle. So today I call the main mechanic back and again he says use only regular gas in it. Toro’s website is pretty noncommital about the type of gas to use, just no more than 15% ethanol.

I use the same can for my snowblowers and get it from the same place, they run fine, never had an issue with them. Borrowed my neighbors mower, put the same gas in it this past weekend and it ran fine. I’m not a mechanic, in fact I’m an idiot when it comes to this stuff, but I’ve always been told to use non oxy. Talked to a couple of small engine mechanics that I normally use but couldn’t do to repairs being under warranty, and they said it sounds like they are grasping at an answer and blaming me. BTW, on the invoice slip, they filled it back up with non-oxy to test it. lol

What gas should I be using!?!?
I bought 5 gallons of non oxy to bring it to the cabin and put it in the boat this weekend. I’m not going to do that any more, but can I put this in my vehicle without fear?
I’m going to buy a new can just to be safe and dispose of the old one.

Thoughts and advice appreciated.

Most likely could run it in your vehicle without worry. All small engine guys that I know only run non oxy and that is all I have done and have had no issues. If it were me I would be trying to get a hold of someone at Toro and request a different mower. Needing to have it in twice in that short of time is not acceptable my opinion. I have a friend that runs the same mower older than your by a bit but loves it and he runs non oxy.

I agree.. somethings not right with the mower. My Toro is at least 8 years old and fires up in 2 pulls always… and I am terrible at leaving old gas in year to year.

I’d love to just get a new mower, problem is if the repair guys are blaming the gas, not sure what foot I have to stand on with them.

Here’s a couple of things I have noticed as it relates to new power equipment that finds its way to me for repairs.

A lot of new summer use power equipment like mowers is jetted from the factory to be incredibly lean. This is to meet emissions requirements in places like Commiefornia. The problem with this super lean jetting is that as the weather gets cooler the equipment becomes incredibly hard to start, if not impossible. Some engines have the option of changing the jetting. Many engines like lawn mowers these days do not.

I’m having a tough time believing that contaminated fuel was really the issue both times.

Question for you. Did the mower ever hit anything that caused it to stall? Even if it was just a stick or a branch or a big wad of leaves did it ever suddenly stop?

Regarding what fuel to use I think this is a big red herring. You can use any gasoline from any pump as long as you use it up promptly. In my opinion you should quit using a five gallon can and start buying one or two gallons at a time. Seldom if ever will you have a problem with any gasoline if you’re using it up in the span of 1 to 2 months.

Personally I use non ox and I never ever have a problem. But I only buy enough gas to last me 1 to 2 months. Whatever is left over just gets dumped in one of the vehicles.

that’s pretty much what I do too and only non oxy here…

If what you’re saying is true about the gas cans and age of the gas, there’s some other issue.

I think issues with old gas are blown out of proportion more often than not. Use non-oxy, run machines once in a great while, and you aren’t going to have issues. I would not recommend running the gas out of machines or emptying them for off-season. Fill the tank to the brim with non oxy and the corresponding amount of stabilizer. Run whatever it is for a few minutes. Done and nothing to worry about for quite a long time.

We fill up 400 gallons of non-oxy in a barrel each Spring for boats, mowers, etc. at the buildings….pull up, fill up, and roll. It sits for months as we use it and have never had an issue and trust it more than any other fuel. It comes from the same fuel supplier we’ve known personally for years.

I should clarify, I bought 5 gallons of non oxy cause I knew I was putting the rest in the boat. I only buy 1-2 gallons at a time normally. It never sits around for any length of time.

I don’t recall hitting anything that made it stall. I was starting and stopping often due to the bag only handling one row of leaves at a time last fall, but that’s it.

I really don’t think this is a fuel issue either. I’m guessing that I’m going to have issues again with this machine. I just took it to the store to fix because both times I figured it was “warranty” issues. I’ll be taking it to the small engine guy I know for future repairs. I think something is off on the machine and they are using the gas as a scapegoat. But I’ll do all my due diligence to eliminate fuel issues so if it happens again I can claim I did everything they said to do.

Did the shop that fixed it ever pull the carb and take it apart and clean it? Like Grouse mentioned the jets passages are extremely small and if you had water/oil in the gas I would guess the carb is probably clogged up internally.

I use non oxy in all my small engines and always put a stabilizer in the gas can right when I fill them up so that my gas is good for a year plus. Another good practice is to try and run the carb on your small engines dry at the end of using them. If you have fuel shutoff valve, cut off the flow and just let the motor run till it kills on its own.

Next time it wont start, pull the air filter and spray some starter fluid into the intake and if it starts up and kills in after 10 or so seconds, it is a fuel delivery issue.

Where do you live Alex?

The first time they cleaned the carb, not the second. I run them as dry as I can in the fall. I live in Plymouth.

You need to find another Toro repair center, Guy knows nothing about non Oxy gas. Run Forest Run

I use Stabil 360 marine. The small bottle of it will last about a year between all my small engines and all the gas I put in my boat boat. I just leave it in my truck and whenever I fill up a gas can or my boat I add it right at the gas station. For $10 a year its a good piece of mind

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Yeah this is definitely not a fuel related issue. Heck I have a Honda push mower that I might fire up once a year and it will start on the first pull when I do it. The Toro should be similar.

Are you thinking spun/broke flywheel key Grouse? My parents had a old push mower that acted very similar to this after I ran over a little stump mowing my bike trails as a kid. The key way in the flywheel got mangled up from the impact which threw off the timing.

Not much to add, from your description I have the same Toro as you. I’ve never run anything BUT non-oxy in that mower and no problems. Like Grouse said, it won’t start when it’s cold so I end up warming it up in the basement before I mulch leaves in the fall.

This spring I changed oil and took the blade off to touch up the edges. Safety first, I pulled the plug wire before I started working on it. last week I cut the grass for the first time and pulled it about 30 times in a row and it never burped. I was thinking bad thoughts about it and then I remembered I didn’t put the plug wire back. One pull, it roars to life and away we go.

SR

I started out using my Toro self propelled this spring with old 10% cow pi$$ gas from last summer and old gas left in the mower.
The only issue I have is it takes one or 2 more pulls to get started, once running no issues.

oil in the gas? that’s a new one

If you really want to be anal about it, you could just use Tru Fuel, but that gets spendy, especially for a lawn mower which might use a few gallons.

I agree, something is not right and they are kicking the can down the road. I think I would just put a whole new carb on it and be done.

Follow the safety kill wire down to where it connects at the mower. Check the range of motion, does it seem to get enough travel to disengage/engage the short connection consistently?

If it runs good when it runs, then I doubt the problem is in the points (which are under the flywheel).

Does Toro use Walbro carbs? A lean condition can also be caused by a carb metering lever out of adjustment. That’s easy to check/fix with a really cheap metering lever gauge. There’s tons of Youtubes on how to do it.

Sell the mower and hire Grouse’s son to mow your yard.

Steve Root wrote:

pulled it about 30 times in a row and it never burped. I was thinking bad thoughts about it and then I remembered I didn’t put the plug wire back. One pull, it roars to life and away we go.

I’ve done that too, Steve. I just say I thoroughly “primed” the engine!!

Okay so here are my 2 leading suspects.

1. Per Hilhiker’s comment, yes I’m wondering about the flywheel key. I’ve seen situations where the flywheel key was just bent and not broken. It puts the engine out of time and makes it very difficult to start.

2. Because Alex mentions a bagger I’m wondering if there might be some kind of safety switch issue? Is there any safety switch that reads if the bagger is properly installed? Might that switch not be getting closed or be otherwise malfunctioning?

This problem strikes me as being an electrical issue or at least that’s the first way I pursue it.

Non-oxy all the way. Drain and run dry all equipment before winter, preferably with some kind of fuel additive like sta-bil and/or sea foam. I’m sure grouse can provide more and better insight than I.

buckybadger wrote:

I think issues with old gas are blown out of proportion more often than not. Use non-oxy, run machines once in a great while, and you aren’t going to have issues.

I think the same about most supposed gas issues. I have a Honda gas mower that I only use for mulching leaves in the fall and I don’t do anything for maintenance. Fill it up when I’m done and put it in the shed until next year and it works fine. Might take a few extra pulls to start first time out again but that’s the worst thing that’s ever happened. There’s something else wrong with that mower I think.

I’ve got a 15+ year old Toro that has never seen anything but 87 octane E10 and it always starts on the first pull.

TheFamousGrouse wrote:

A lot of new summer use power equipment like mowers is jetted from the factory to be incredibly lean.

My parents bought a new Toro a few years ago, and it’s a bear to start. You literally have to tip it towards the carb for a bit to get it to start, and I am pretty sure this is the culprit. Dad’s always run non-oxy in it. They hired a lawn service this summer.

Does it have a briggs and stratton motor with the newer style plastic carb? Couple good YT videos that go over some fixes for these.

First one is checking that the auto choke mechanism is working properly. This should be about a 10 min fix if it is the issue.

Second one goes over how restrictive the main jets are one these and a way to modify it so it is a larger hole. Lot more involved than the first choke video.

Links don’t seam to work so I just took screen shots of the YT video and you will have to search them.

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TheFamousGrouse wrote:

yes I’m wondering about the flywheel key.

I inherited my dad’s late ’60s rototiller. Probably a Sears. That thing was hard to start for me. Took it apart and found a bent flywheel key. Put a new on in and after running it a few times it would bend that one. Just became part of annual maintenance. That thing bent flywheel keys like the Amazing Kreskin bent spoons.

Reef W wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>buckybadger wrote:</div>
I think issues with old gas are blown out of proportion more often than not. Use non-oxy, run machines once in a great while, and you aren’t going to have issues.

I think the same about most supposed gas issues.

I agree, blaming everything on ethanol and gas it become the get out of jail free card for the mechanic that can’t find the real problem.

Very rarely does the same real diagnosed fuel problem come back a second time in rapid succession. If you’ve got a plugged carb and you clean it, it generally does get plugged again anytime soon for example.

I still suspect this problem is electrical.

I really appreciate all the insights guys, I thank you kindly. We’ll see how it performs the next few laps around the yard. If anything comes up I’ll start with the list that you all have provided to see if I can make it work.

To answer a few questions above, it does have a plastic carb. I do believe it’s a briggs and stratton engine, but I’m not 100% on that. I know it’s the new “Vortex” technology.

I believe its got the same engine my simplicity has which is indeed a Briggs. Excellent motor actually.

I don’t think it’s a fuel issue either based on what your saying but you could disconnect the fuel line going into carb and turn it over a few times to see if fuel is going to it. Maybe fuel pump acting up? But my experience with fuel pumps is either they work or they don’t. Guessing it’s a mechanical pump.