Shotgun Zone Elimination

  • gimruis
    Plymouth, MN
    Posts: 17110
    #1959950

    With the advent of saboted slugs and newer higher-performance powders shotgun slugs have taken a serious upwards turn in ballistics terminal performance and in accuracy out to and over 150 yards. Decent optics, like those on rifles, will go a long ways in getting today’s rifled barreled guns doing much of what common deer rifles can do at 150 yards or even more.

    So maybe this sort of information is what the legislature are using as an argument to lift he shotgun restriction? When I originally started the thread, that was their argument for it. They stated that shotgun technology has advanced to the point where it is almost even with center fire rifles now. And you’ve made a pretty convincing argument for that yourself. If the original restriction was in place to manage deer herds and to make hunters use a lesser weapon, then that is a moot point now so the entire state should be able to use a rifle if every weapon is on even terms.

    Tom Sawvell
    Inactive
    Posts: 9559
    #1959960

    The technology is there as is the higher population densities. Even with the higher velocities found with the sabots, the bullets lose much of the energy and velocity needed to kill deer sized animals after 200 yards very quickly. With most hunting taking place in wooded areas or even around corn bullets missing their mark will be spent much sooner than a rifle bullet. Still, inside the 200 yards a modern rifled shotgun and the sabot ammunition is right on par with any rifle. Same with a modern muzzle loader using pistol bullets and a sabot.

    In fact, I could easily use a 400 to 550 grain lead bullet either cast or sized to fit the bore of my .45 cal in-line without a sabot and using a simple wool wad between the bullet and powder and see outstanding accuracy out to 400 yards and have enough umph to absolutely flatten a deer of any size and quite probably elk inside of 300 yards. I don’t need to load like that for deer with my muzzle loaders.

    Both shotguns and muzzle loaders can be extremely accurate inside the 200 yard range but in SE Minnesota one seldom will see the opportunity to stretch a shot that far. Where I hunt on the opening weekend it can sound like a war zone with the shotgunners doing drives. I live in a single shot world while deer hunting and honestly wish all guns used for deer had to be single shots. I haven’t need a polish shot on an animal in over thirty years, almost 30 of those years with a muzzle loader.

    ClownColor
    Inactive
    The Back 40
    Posts: 1955
    #1960081

    …my modern deer rifles will plug a deer out from 400-750 yards. So…modern shotguns have this kind of accuracy? Damn!

    waldo9190
    Cloquet, MN
    Posts: 1111
    #1960116

    …my modern deer rifles will plug a deer out from 400-750 yards. So…modern shotguns have this kind of accuracy? Damn!

    Not one person on this thread said that.

    What has been said is that modern, fully rifles slug guns with saboted slugs and optics have much more capability than a smooth tube with MAYBE a rifled choke and brenneke slugs.

    gimruis
    Plymouth, MN
    Posts: 17110
    #1960233

    …my modern deer rifles will plug a deer out from 400-750 yards. So…modern shotguns have this kind of accuracy? Damn!

    750 yards? I don’t think so. 400 yards, ok.

    Tom Sawvell
    Inactive
    Posts: 9559
    #1960239

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Clowncolor wrote:</div>
    …my modern deer rifles will plug a deer out from 400-750 yards. So…modern shotguns have this kind of accuracy? Damn!

    750 yards? I don’t think so. 400 yards, ok.

    And 400 is a stretch in SE Minnesota where the shotgun zone is at. On paper maybe….on a really good day with no wind, no alcohol, plenty of sleep.

    gimruis
    Plymouth, MN
    Posts: 17110
    #1960249

    And 400 is a stretch in SE Minnesota where the shotgun zone is at.

    I think he was referring to his rifle Tom. But ya, he thinks he’s American Sniper.

    ClownColor
    Inactive
    The Back 40
    Posts: 1955
    #1960265

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Clowncolor wrote:</div>
    …my modern deer rifles will plug a deer out from 400-750 yards. So…modern shotguns have this kind of accuracy? Damn!

    Not one person on this thread said that.

    What has been said is that modern, fully rifles slug guns with saboted slugs and optics have much more capability than a smooth tube with MAYBE a rifled choke and brenneke slugs.

    I think I miss read this quote-

    “The argument in favor is that technology using shotgun slugs, ammo, and muzzle loaders has advanced to the point where it has closed the gap when comparing it to long range rifles.”

    Closed the gap??? By how much?

    Grimuis seems to have all the info we need lately so…PEACE!

    disco bobber
    Posts: 294
    #1960437

    Have there been any problems in Wisc where slug zones were eliminated a few years ago? Are there problems in the north metro where the rifle zone meets the metro area? A line that hasn’t moved in a long time. Any problems in Iowa, Michigan, or Ohio where straight wall cartridge legislation passed?

    If safety is the concern wouldn’t limiting magazine capacity or action type of the gun accomplish more than caliber restrictions?

    When the slug zone was implemented we had a 1 to 4 day season in southern/western MN that made it a mad dash to get your deer. Now you can be pickier about the deer you shoot.

    Tom schmitt
    Posts: 1014
    #1960469

    South west Minnesota is a slug zone. South Dakota is rifle.
    Compare the statistics for accidents in the the counties of both states that boarder the other.

    Tom Sawvell
    Inactive
    Posts: 9559
    #1960481

    If safety is the concern wouldn’t limiting magazine capacity or action type of the gun accomplish more than caliber restrictions?

    Right. Look at how many 30 clips go afield in rifle zones. Rifle, shotgun or handgun, I have always been an advocate of limiting them to one or two shots, but if a gun has multiple round capacity legally it seems nobody can hunt unless the gun’s magazine is full. My logic is simple: make the shot count the first time.

    Look at when this point restriction crap started. There was nothing at all wrong with the deer herd we had and not a lick of cwd. Money got into the legislative decision making, the point restrictions came as a trial, then made law. Now look at the whole of zone three with its totally lopsided, un-natural deer numbers, male to female, all because a few people with $$$ influencing the legislature and wanting to shoot deer with heavy antlers every year. Totally selfish.

    Should one think that if rifles are allowed in any fashion in the current shotgun zone that money from the nra and other big $$$$ sources won’t come into play if a reduced magazine capacity is in the package suggested by the dnr, or if guns looking like the “black guns” are banned?

    My bottom line is that shotguns and muzzleloaders have evolved over the last few years into hyper-accurate deer hunting tools that still have a limited range that makes them safe to use in areas with rural, high population densities. Many of these shotguns and muzzleloaders use bullets and components that border well into rifle capabilities but lack the long range energy….like rifles have….that can make them far more dangerous in this area not only for people whole live there, but livestock and most certainly the hunter afield. The need for a rifle is simply non existent.

    This is Minnesota, not Wisconsin or Iowa or Ohio. What they choose to do best suits their own states. Minnesota’s zone three is a unique area to hunt and I have hunted most of it with exception to areas near the Twin Cities. Over the years I have seen several total “F” ups the dnr has master planned with the help of some big $$$ peoples’ suggestions, the most recent being the antler point restrictions when absolutely nothing was wrong with the deer’s natural balance we had. And when cwd came along the dnr had to have someone to point fingers at so the chose deer and elk farms instead of looking at how the balance between doe and buck numbers was totally off the hook and that the prime and usual carriers of the disease was none other than the bucks old enough to travel during the rut that all these idiot big $$$$ jackasses lobbied for.

    Zone three does not need rifles. Period. Go buy a rifled shotgun or a muzzleloader and learn how to make the first shot count.

    gimruis
    Plymouth, MN
    Posts: 17110
    #1960516

    I think that removing the party tag sharing thing would be far more important than digging into this weapon zone thing. It really peeves me off when someone harvests more than 1 buck in a season because they know their 2nd cousin still has a tag to fill. It should be 1 legal buck MAX regardless of weapon and then extra tags for antlerless deer if desired. It would immediately increase the average size of bucks too because it would make a lot of hunters think twice about harvesting a small buck early in the season.

    Tom Sawvell
    Inactive
    Posts: 9559
    #1960535

    Down here in the cwd zones they can blast several bucks without apr’s. Cross tagging has been made illegal in most non cwd areas but you’ll never get rid of the practice, especially in drive hunts. I’d like to see drives fall by the wayside.

    While we can cross tag does here where I hunt the issue never even arises between the nephew and I. We hunt together but are several hundred yards apart. If he wants me to take a doe for him late in the season he can ask and I will but generally we take our own deer. I can hunt all week but he has to travel to get here to hunt and is limited to the two weekends. If he wants a buck he has to learn to hit them….and therein lies his problem. lol

    Outdraft
    Western Wi.
    Posts: 1149
    #1960549

    I have a very hard time believing that there’s not many places in se mn to shoot 400 yards safely, but that’s just an observation when driving

    Tom Sawvell
    Inactive
    Posts: 9559
    #1960574

    Right….an observation while driving is a long ways away from an actual hunting scenario.

    Coletrain27
    Posts: 4789
    #1960656

    I think that removing the party tag sharing thing would be far more important than digging into this weapon zone thing. It really peeves me off when someone harvests more than 1 buck in a season because they know their 2nd cousin still has a tag to fill. It should be 1 legal buck MAX regardless of weapon and then extra tags for antlerless deer if desired. It would immediately increase the average size of bucks too because it would make a lot of hunters think twice about harvesting a small buck early in the season.

    Isn’t cross tagging bucks already illegal? I know it is in our zone in SE MN

    gimruis
    Plymouth, MN
    Posts: 17110
    #1960661

    sn’t cross tagging bucks already illegal? I know it is in our zone in SE MN

    No, definitely not. Minnesota is one of the very few states that still allows party hunting. Specific zones may prohibit that but it is still legal statewide.

    Tom Sawvell
    Inactive
    Posts: 9559
    #1960695

    Specific zones may prohibit that but it is still legal statewide.

    Zone three has eliminated cross tagging of bucks but its still legal to do so with does and un-antlered deer. They still can drive hunt and I’d like to see that go away. Whistles, bells clanking, shouting….you name it and the deer fly as does the shooting from the artillery. Hearing five and six repeated shots at fleeing deer is common. I’ve seen the results of driven deer with many having deer up to eight hits on them, many of them decent bucks. What a waste.

    I hunt river valley and know which hill is going to be assaulted on which day of the opener and again on the last weekend. Until you’ll heard the shooting created by a drive you’ll have no idea how much money goes up in smoke literally and how many of the shots run errant into the surrounding areas and properties. I have counted upwards of 70 shots taken during a drive on the ridge across the road from where I hunt and those guys normally average 3 deer per drive. Not good shots/kills percentages. On way more than one occasion I have had shots taken off one ridge by drivers rip through the trees where I’m hunting on our ridge.

    So Gimruis, I’m on board with you on that party ideology since there is absolutely no way to prevent anyone from cross tagging bucks during a drive hunt…. they see a deer they shoot. If a deer is hit and runs the shooting just goes from one hunter to the next until the animal drops. Period. Its the whole idea behind the practice. A “cultural” thing. Now imagine rifles involved.

    gimruis
    Plymouth, MN
    Posts: 17110
    #1960700

    I hear ya Tom. Our group up north in Zone 1 used to conduct a few coordinated drives the third weekend of the season. I enjoyed it because it gave me the opportunity to hunt in a different way other than just rotting away in a tree for hours on end, which got pretty boring after 9 days already.

    We had posters and drivers and always established safe shooting directions should a deer attempt to escape. We never had an issue. We were also in a large tract of forest and there was no buildings or people around either for miles. We harvested some deer – not a lot – but very RARELY bucks. They didn’t exit where the other deer did…they either double backed, swam across a lake (no joke), or ran out somewhere we didn’t have covered. Too smart.

    We haven’t done it in years now because my group doesn’t have the same dynamic it used to. The older fellas were way more dedicated. The new generation that has started in the past few years are a bunch of half assed dead beats that sit in their stands for a couple hours looking at their phones and then lose interest. So ya I don’t foresee any more drives from this guy anytime soon.

    Tom Sawvell
    Inactive
    Posts: 9559
    #1960715

    sit in their stands for a couple hours looking at their phones .

    LOL. Last year the nephew showed up the night before and was happy to show us the new Iwatch his wife presented to him. At noon on opening day we meet up and have a little lunch and he told me that about ten he saw a large buck walking away from him on a trail just out of range. Never saw it or heard it. Then he told me that the deer was “just there” when he looked up from his watch.

    I watched that same buck for twenty minutes well out of my range as it picked its way to the trail that would take that buck directly past his stand at about 30 yards…and clear shooting. Three does also took that route mid-afternoon and again no shooting. Its hard telling just what he was doing then. And he vapes so his stand is intentionally where it is….well away from me. Several times over the course of three years I have seen that white vapor swirl along in the woods coming from his stand. As the saying goes…”you can tell them but you can’t tell them much”. His biggest deer that I recall him shooting off the hill is a fawn. I wonder why.

    Pete Bauer
    Stillwater, MN
    Posts: 2599
    #1960791

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>gimruis wrote:</div>
    I think that removing the party tag sharing thing would be far more important than digging into this weapon zone thing. It really peeves me off when someone harvests more than 1 buck in a season because they know their 2nd cousin still has a tag to fill. It should be 1 legal buck MAX regardless of weapon and then extra tags for antlerless deer if desired. It would immediately increase the average size of bucks too because it would make a lot of hunters think twice about harvesting a small buck early in the season.

    Isn’t cross tagging bucks already illegal? I know it is in our zone in SE MN

    Not anymore from what I’m reading.

    New for 2020 – No more antler point restriction and you CAN cross tag bucks now.

    gimruis
    Plymouth, MN
    Posts: 17110
    #1960799

    New for 2020 – No more antler point restriction and you CAN cross tag bucks now.

    LOL I’m sure Tom will be thrilled about it

    Tom Sawvell
    Inactive
    Posts: 9559
    #1960804

    I still shoot my own. But it amazing with the covid that apr’s get dropped in the last two areas. Now they need to go away entirely and for good. I can shoot three deer this year but will likely take one. I’m getting pretty old and all that meat in the freezer is about like buying ripe bananas.

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