Scope or no scope? Muzzleoaders

  • Nic Barker
    Central WI-Northern IL
    Posts: 380
    #1613480

    So I have the CVA Buckhorn, I know it’s not the high end of the spectrum but I got it as a Christmas gift a few years ago. Anyway I had open sights on it and it did it’s job and I felt confident at 30-75yds with it. Then I wanted to scope it and tried but got all turned around sighting it in with having a good group then running patches down it and it shooting different.

    My question is, practice with open sight and leave it alone or put a 4x scope on it? And if scope what’s the best procedure you guys have found for sight in to balance clean barrel and dirty barrel shots?

    sticker
    StillwaterMN/Ottertail county
    Posts: 4418
    #1613490

    First make sure scopes are legal for muzzy season in your state, they are not in MN. Unless you are going to use it only during shotgun season.

    When I sight in my muzzy I won’t shoot more than 3 times before I run a patch thru it, usually only twice. It only takes a few seconds to run a patch thru it and when you are going to use it for hunting I assume the barrel will be clean, so that is how you want to sight it in. Once you get it dialed in, then shoot 2 or 3 times cleaning after every shot.

    youngfry
    Northeast Iowa
    Posts: 629
    #1613493

    I hunted without a scope on my Remington Genesis for the last few years and like you felt confident under 75 yds but outside of that I just didn’t have any confidence. Last December I had a big 10 at about 80 yards and passed on the shot because I didn’t feel comfortable taking it through the woods and didn’t want to wound the animal. I know it was the right decision… but if I had a scope that I felt comfortable with I know I could make a shot out much further. So I actually just grabbed one this week. I haven’t shot it yet but will be doing that this summer to get things dialed in for next season.

    Aaron
    Posts: 245
    #1613494

    What do you shoot for bullets?

    Mocha
    Park Rapids
    Posts: 1452
    #1613497

    First make sure scopes are legal for muzzy season in your state, they are not in MN. Unless you are going to use it only during shotgun season.

    When I sight in my muzzy I won’t shoot more than 3 times before I run a patch thru it, usually only twice. It only takes a few seconds to run a patch thru it and when you are going to use it for hunting I assume the barrel will be clean, so that is how you want to sight it in. Once you get it dialed in, then shoot 2 or 3 times cleaning after every shot.

    Not quite accurate……if you have a permit filled out by your eye doctor and sent to the local DNR you are good to go with a 1x scope or Red dot.

    Nic Barker
    Central WI-Northern IL
    Posts: 380
    #1613498

    TC Shockwaves 250gr with 100gr Pyrodex at the moment but willing to compare and open to switching, I have only shot at paper with this combo thus far.

    Nic Barker
    Central WI-Northern IL
    Posts: 380
    #1613499

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>sticker wrote:</div>
    First make sure scopes are legal for muzzy season in your state, they are not in MN. Unless you are going to use it only during shotgun season.

    When I sight in my muzzy I won’t shoot more than 3 times before I run a patch thru it, usually only twice. It only takes a few seconds to run a patch thru it and when you are going to use it for hunting I assume the barrel will be clean, so that is how you want to sight it in. Once you get it dialed in, then shoot 2 or 3 times cleaning after every shot.

    Not quite accurate……if you have a permit filled out by your eye doctor and sent to the local DNR you are good to go with a 1x scope or Red dot.

    I’m a little young for that kinda drastic measure rotflol but this will be in Wisconsin.

    Tom Sawvell
    Inactive
    Posts: 9559
    #1613513

    I think your eyes should determine whether the scope is called for. If you get a fuzzy picture at any point in aiming maybe the scope can help keep your sighting picture clear.

    I’d recommend a 1.5X4 scope on your smoker.

    As a scoped blackpowder gun shooter myself, I found that I had to spend quite a bit of time and money snooping thru different powders and different bullets. The sabots make a difference too. As do primers. And one thing many don’t think of: black powder of any kind will/can shoot differently between warm and cold temps. If you settle on a load that is accurate in July, be darned certain you run a few thru the gun in cold weather before you pull the trigger on a game animal. You might get a real eye opener on paper.

    Mocha
    Park Rapids
    Posts: 1452
    #1613518

    If you do plan on going with a scope before you look at a powered scope I would look at a good quality Red Dot. I have a Nikon Manarch Red Dot that I have no problems putting 3 shots in a 2-4″ group at 100 yards.

    Nic Barker
    Central WI-Northern IL
    Posts: 380
    #1613566

    Thanks for the feedback I think I’ll take it to the range again and shoot open sights and see how I feel after that…I just dug out a 4×32 scope I had around and figured it might be an option for it but I’ll see what happens.

    Any other advice as far as sighting in and cleaning between rounds while doing so?

    grpubl7
    Central WI
    Posts: 261
    #1638042

    Don’t sell that el-cheapo Buckhorn short. The barrels are extremely smooth and held to surprisingly tight tolerance. They “will” shoot very well.

    Ok, the first thing that I would try is a different powder. Sadly, that particular model of CVA cannot fire what is likely the best powder because of the breechplug/vent design. That powder would be Buckhorn 209. Your next option and better than Pyrodex, would be the Hodgdon 777 in loose FFg or FFFg size. FFg is far more readily available, even at Walmarts.

    You can use the bullet/sabot combination that you are using presently if you are happy with it. The most critical element is the bullet/sabot to bore fit. It should go down the bore “snug”. Not tight and not loose. What is “snug”?? Only experience will tell you that. If you must pound or hammer it down the bore, it’s far too tight.

    Your other option if most of your shooting is within 100yds is to just use a full diameter bullet. The newer Powerbelt bullets, Hornady, Harvester or Federal will make short work of deer or bear at closer ranges. Flat-shooting sabots are not required.

    When I use one of the black powder replica powders, I set an NRA 50yd smallbore target at 50yds to do my load development work. It is a target with (5) 4″ bullseyes and allows me to easily see my results increasing charges in 5 grain increments. Most 50cal rifles seem to want to shoot from 90 through whatever the max on the rifle is rated for, but in the 90-110 grain range is generally where you will find your sweet spot (they are all different).

    As smooth as the bore is on the average CVA, I can generally get 3 accurate shots off before I must spit-patch clean the bore. Sometimes, I must clean between every shot. Again, all barrels are different. You’ll know how often to clean by what is happening on your target and by how hard subsequent bullets go back down that barrel.

    At any rate, pre-foul the bore by dumping 50gr of loose powder down the bore, put a couple of balled-up patches down the bore, cap the rifle and fire it in the dirt. Now, take a patch (I use 2 to 2-1/2 inch patches) and press it against your tongue with NORMAL tongue moisture. Don’t work up a goober and saturate the patch. Just make it lightly damp. Stroke it down the bore on your jag, in short steps, paying close attention to the last 6-10 inches near the breech. You may need to stroke it several times in those last 6-10 inches, particularly once you start cleaning after 3 shot strings. Flip the patch over to the clean side and dry out the barrel with it. BTW…take a patch worm along because you will likely need it at some point. That patch comes off the jag and without a patch worm, your day is done.

    Start working up your load in 5 grain increments and when you find what wants to shoot MARK YOUR RAMROD. Be religious about checking that mark every time you shoot thereafter. The last thing you want is to have the bullet off that powder charge when you fire. When you seat the bullet on the powder charge, do not hammer it down. A firm, consistent compacting of the powder is all that is required. Did I say consistent? If I didn’t, I mean to.

    Now, I could go on and get into little anal things like marking the muzzle for where the rifling is so that you can index the petals of your sabot each shot, relative to the rifling lands…but, you aren’t ready and this is only a hunting rifle )

    One last thing. Pre-foul your barrel as outlined, the night prior to hunting. Keep the rifle out in the cold so that you do not build up condensation. I have left them loaded 2 or 3 days if kept in cold temps without issue using 777 and it will still drive the shot right on call. If you do not pre-foul your bore, the point of impact on your first shot could/will be a big disappointment. After 2-3 days, if you get into higher temps or higher humidity, fire then clean the rifle and simply spit-patch again before loading a fresh charge.

    grpubl7
    Central WI
    Posts: 261
    #1638046

    Not knocking Pyrodex (yes I am), but I did have a CVA Eclipse that was on their recall list. It was a 54cal model that I had replaced the factory sights to fine beaded blade and a receiver peep sight (when WI was 1X scopes only or irons).

    I would cast the TC 540gr Maxi and lube it with the TC Bore Butter. With a 110gr of Pyrodex SELECT and a Rem #11 cap, that rifle was a hammer. I was running a hunter sight-in and when things got slow, I’d load the rifle, fire a shot and then throw it back on the rack. At the end of the day, without one single cleaning and somewhere between 12-15 shots, I had a ragged hole at 100yds that was slightly wider than an inch center to center and slightly over 1-1/2 inches tall, center to center.

    The tears flowed when I had to ship that barreled action back on the recall. The replacement shot well, but not THAT well. It’s got many years of dust on it now.

    mr-special
    MPLS
    Posts: 696
    #1646225

    you might want to look into a peep sight. i have an Optima with a Williams peep on it and can keep 3″ groups at 100yrds with fast target acquisition.
    however, using the factory front sights it sit kinda tall and i had to adjust the rear peep all the way forward. not to big of a deal cz i wont shoot further then a hundo anyhow.

    Tom Sawvell
    Inactive
    Posts: 9559
    #1646240

    The bullets can make a huge difference. I shot 250 grain .45 caliber XTPs for a couple seasons some time ago, scoped, with decent patterns at 100 yards. About 5 years ago I switched to a 300 grain .45 caliber XTP and found the somewhat longer bullet did better pattern-wise. I gave up some speed for bullet weight but no biggie. Over the summer I have been throwing a .44 caliber 300 grain XTP load and can’t believe how much tighter things got with a longer bullet yet. The .44 and .45 have very similar ballistic coefficients but the .44 delivers slightly higher at 100 on paper and the groups are noticeably tighter.

    I’ve run some of the .44 cals down the pipe of the pistol, but it does much better with a .45 300 grain. A 250 grain is a near mirror image as far as paper goes. The pistol is scoped too, so you know.

    I use Hornady black [.45 cal] and green [.44 cal] sabots exclusively.

    I don’t hunt the late muzzy season, but if I were going to I’d buy a dedicated gun for it and spend plenty of time getting to know it.

    I enjoy burning the black all year and I know the guns very, very well. Regardless if you scope it or not, shoot it enough to know it and you’ll be fine. I know where the first shot on a clean barrel is going to go as well as the second and third on a dirty barrel. In the field I carry a wet mop in a zip-lock and a cleaning jag and patches in another. My rifle likes it clean so if I take a shot and have time I run a mop and couple patches thru it to clean it up a bit, but I still know where that second shot on a fouled barrel will go too. All of this comes into play but you won’t understand how unless you burn a pile of powder before the season starts.

    benelli-bob
    Eagan, MN
    Posts: 311
    #1646295

    Don’t sell that el-cheapo Buckhorn short. The barrels are extremely smooth and held to surprisingly tight tolerance. They “will” shoot very well.

    Ok, the first thing that I would try is a different powder. Sadly, that particular model of CVA cannot fire what is likely the best powder because of the breechplug/vent design. That powder would be Buckhorn 209. Your next option and better than Pyrodex, would be the Hodgdon 777 in loose FFg or FFFg size. FFg is far more readily available, even at Walmarts.

    You can use the bullet/sabot combination that you are using presently if you are happy with it. The most critical element is the bullet/sabot to bore fit. It should go down the bore “snug”. Not tight and not loose. What is “snug”?? Only experience will tell you that. If you must pound or hammer it down the bore, it’s far too tight.

    Your other option if most of your shooting is within 100yds is to just use a full diameter bullet. The newer Powerbelt bullets, Hornady, Harvester or Federal will make short work of deer or bear at closer ranges. Flat-shooting sabots are not required.

    When I use one of the black powder replica powders, I set an NRA 50yd smallbore target at 50yds to do my load development work. It is a target with (5) 4″ bullseyes and allows me to easily see my results increasing charges in 5 grain increments. Most 50cal rifles seem to want to shoot from 90 through whatever the max on the rifle is rated for, but in the 90-110 grain range is generally where you will find your sweet spot (they are all different).

    As smooth as the bore is on the average CVA, I can generally get 3 accurate shots off before I must spit-patch clean the bore. Sometimes, I must clean between every shot. Again, all barrels are different. You’ll know how often to clean by what is happening on your target and by how hard subsequent bullets go back down that barrel.

    At any rate, pre-foul the bore by dumping 50gr of loose powder down the bore, put a couple of balled-up patches down the bore, cap the rifle and fire it in the dirt. Now, take a patch (I use 2 to 2-1/2 inch patches) and press it against your tongue with NORMAL tongue moisture. Don’t work up a goober and saturate the patch. Just make it lightly damp. Stroke it down the bore on your jag, in short steps, paying close attention to the last 6-10 inches near the breech. You may need to stroke it several times in those last 6-10 inches, particularly once you start cleaning after 3 shot strings. Flip the patch over to the clean side and dry out the barrel with it. BTW…take a patch worm along because you will likely need it at some point. That patch comes off the jag and without a patch worm, your day is done.

    Start working up your load in 5 grain increments and when you find what wants to shoot MARK YOUR RAMROD. Be religious about checking that mark every time you shoot thereafter. The last thing you want is to have the bullet off that powder charge when you fire. When you seat the bullet on the powder charge, do not hammer it down. A firm, consistent compacting of the powder is all that is required. Did I say consistent? If I didn’t, I mean to.

    Now, I could go on and get into little anal things like marking the muzzle for where the rifling is so that you can index the petals of your sabot each shot, relative to the rifling lands…but, you aren’t ready and this is only a hunting rifle )

    One last thing. Pre-foul your barrel as outlined, the night prior to hunting. Keep the rifle out in the cold so that you do not build up condensation. I have left them loaded 2 or 3 days if kept in cold temps without issue using 777 and it will still drive the shot right on call. If you do not pre-foul your bore, the point of impact on your first shot could/will be a big disappointment. After 2-3 days, if you get into higher temps or higher humidity, fire then clean the rifle and simply spit-patch again before loading a fresh charge.

    X2 Blackhorn 209 is the only powder I will use

    sjhauge
    Elgin, MN
    Posts: 59
    #1646302

    CVA builds a very good gun. I have an Optima that was bought with the scope as a package from Scheels. I changed the breech plug to the one specifically designed to shoot the BH209 powder. The gun shoots MOA using 100 grains of BH209 & a 250 grain Hornady SST bullet. When I moved from WI to MN, the WI law allowed scoped muzzleloaders. Double check your regs. I use the scoped Optima during the MN slug season & would not hesitate taking a 100 to 150 yard shot if the conditions were correct. I also have a CVA buckhorn that I use for the MN muzzleloader season as I did not want to touch a good combination the Optima is delivering. I did change the open sights on the Buckhorn to a Williams peep sight and also changed the breechplug to use BH209 & feel confident in shooting up to 75 yards with the BH209/Hornady 250gr SST combo. One thing with the BH209 is that you clean it with normal solvents. I can shoot 7-10 rounds without cleaning or affecting accuracy. You need to test your combination as your mileage may vary. I would highly suggest that you look into the BH209 powder, it’s very good powder & is user friendly.

    deertracker
    Posts: 9237
    #1646304

    I’ve wanted to switch to BH209 as well. I have a t/c pro Hunter FX. Anyone know if I need a different breech plug?
    DT

    abster71
    crawford county WI
    Posts: 817
    #1646321

    If your going to scope it would highly recommend the leupold ultimate slam if your gun shoots good this thing is deadly and simple. I sighted my pro hunter in at 100yrds with 150grains 777 with sst 250 dead on at 100 turned scope to 9 power and held the post dead on at 300 yrds when we walked out I was looking all over the board for a huge hole nothing, until I looked at the center 3″ black dot. Buddy with me said he wouldn’t believe it if he didn’t see it, I responded you and me both. Not that I want long shots but just shows what good tools can do. Only thing I want to change up is the powder going to buckhorn 209. Just haven’t had the time to play with it to compare powder loads to match the 777.

    deertracker
    Posts: 9237
    #1646323

    Answered my own question after some research. Seems like only the CVA’s were having issues.
    DT

    deertracker
    Posts: 9237
    #1646324

    I just ordered the Nikon Inline XR scope for mine along with the Leupold quick release rings and base.
    DT

    Tom Sawvell
    Inactive
    Posts: 9559
    #1646363

    Does the bh209 powder require a different breach plug?

    deertracker
    Posts: 9237
    #1646375

    From what I could tell only if you shoot a CVA. Not sure if it is all models though.
    DT

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