Run-in with Cheap SA two stroke oil

I have read that all 2 strokes will put out some unburned oil via the exhaust; and I’ve read that cheaper, lower quality oils will be less likely to fully burn off; BUT I’ve also read that anything labeled TC-W3 is good to go. In the past I have almost always bought little blue 16oz bottles of Valvoline branded 2-stroke oil to mix in my old Merc 50. It’s expensive at nearly $6/bottle but I have two 6 gallon tanks on my boat and it’s an idiot proof system, 1 bottle every fill-up, no funnels, no spills.

Last week I filled at a different SA on my way to the river and they had only 32 oz bottles of two-stroke oil. SA brand but no Valvoline logo. It said for use in outboards and was labeled TC-W3, so I figured it’d be fine for a couple of tanks. It was about half the price per ounce from my usual.

I filled my empty reserve tank with the 50:1 mix using the new oil, and then later that day when my main tank was getting low I added about 3 gallons from the reserve to get me through the afternoon. No problems observed that day.

Couple days later it started harder than it ever has before, and once I finally got it fired up at the dock I saw little black droplets of oil rising to the surface behind the motor. Lasted for maybe a minute or so and subsided. I cautiously went downstream a ways and then ran WOT back toward the dock. I tied up and let it idle there for 5 minutes or so and all seemed fine so I carried on as normal. Kept an eye on it all day and no more signs of oil in water.

Then I had the exact same symptoms when starting up 3 days later. Same issues starting, same oil in the water, still had no further issues. Running like a champ at whatever RPM I ask of it.

Beyond the guilt I feel for adding even more pollutants to the river, should I be worried? I obviously plan to never use that oil again.

It’s just oil not completely burning off like you said and coming out in the exhaust. No issues to worry about other than some smoke, and it could foul a plug. Just buy a better oil in the future and it will be fine.

2 strokes don’t behave perfectly when puttin around most the day. If you can get into a good run at end of day to get a good burn on the cylinders and clean off those plugs should help next time around starting.

Just read an article couple days ago, maybe I can find it again, but regular 87 actually burns hotter than that of non oxy prem which is recommended by pretty much everyone including every shop I’ve spoken with. Reason for that IMO bc as we’ve discussed here the issue with most motors they sit! Us guys who would have no problem with gas getting old in our rigs would actually benefit from this higher temp helping burn off more of everything, even cheap oil. Think it was hotter.

Don’t quote me on it yet, pretty sure it was a well respected member of iboats or marineengine who posted info.

mojogunter wrote:

It’s just oil not completely burning off like you said and coming out in the exhaust. No issues to worry about other than some smoke, and it could foul a plug. Just buy a better oil in the future and it will be fine.

thanks Charles! I figured I was fine since it ran as normal after that. Think I need to check into the plugs and hopefully that will help with the rough starting as well. Always been a slow starter but this is even worse.

@nhamm – if you find that I’d definitely like to read it. I’ve always run 87 and never had isssues until using this oil. I do troll a lot but I always start and end the day with a long run of at least a mile, and often take a cruise in the middle as well. I’m on the boat at least weekly, with many weeks of 2-3 days on the water, from ice out on pool 2 thru November or so.

I’ll attempt to find it at some point. Hotter or a timing thing, maybe premo burns slower, either way just throwing out conversation. I do know I’ll be trying 87 this year as well, good to hear you’ve had good luck with it.

Just throwing this out there, I’ve never tried their marine two stroke oil cause my Merc is a 4 stroke, but now I only run Amsoil 2-stroke oil in my old ATV as well as chainsaw, leaf blower and weedwhip. The stuff is awesome. Little to no smoke at all, and no hard starts at all. Also seems like it stays good in the tank much longer than other oils. Its a little more expensive but in my opinion totally worth a try. If I still had a 2 stroke the lack of smoke alone would make it worth trying.

Older 2 strokes are not very efficient at burning the whole fuel load so what you describe is not all that surprising. I have two 20 hp Johnsons: one a 1967 and the other a 1969. Both run very nice as long as I keep the fuel mixed properly and as long as I keep the alcohol OUT of the gas, meaning the non-oxy fuel sold as alcohol-free premium un-leaded with a 97 rating.

The older motors lack the technology that newer 2 strokes can offer. Most of the older engines simply are inefficient compared to newer 2 strokes but the big factor is that older outboards are NOT designed to work with alcohol enhanced fuels. Rubber components take a hit from the alcohol to start with and if left standing for any length of time, even a day or two, the mixed fuels will begin separate some so a good shaking prior to start-up is needed to ensure they are re-blended. If left in a remote tank for a summer, the alcohol in enhanced fuels can evaporate leaving you with water in the tank instead of something flammable and unless you get that water out it stays in there to create issues. Use the non-oxy fuel and you are not wetting water with your fuel. Make no bones about it, alcohol is water based and when the spirits are gone, water stays behind and won’t evaporate because the gas is lighter and floats on the h2o, thus assuring it stays in the tank.

Marine oils used for adding to fuel should have the tc-w3 designation but be aware that many meet this standard minimally at best. Your best protection will come from those products sold at marine suppliers having known labels….Johnson, Evinrude, Yamaha, Mercury and Quicksilver. Valvoline and Pennzoil are what I call generics in this area as would be labels used by the stations such as Holiday. The big thing here is how you mix the fuel. Do you just dump the oil in the tank and toss in the fuel with maybe a quick shake or two? I buy my non-oxy in a separate 5 gallon can. I add a half gallon of it from that can to another 5 gallon can and add the oil , per recommended per gallon dosage, and my Seafoam and Marine Stabil. I shake the life out of this blend then transfer the remaining non-oxy to complete the mix. As needed, I fill my boat’s 6 gallon remote. Water/alcohol enhanced fuels are not used in my boat, period. Does the 87 rated fuel burn hotter than the non-oxy? I have no idea but will say, perhaps, due to the engine having to work harder to burn off the less volatile and far less efficient alcohol and water components.

Older outboards are sweet machines as long as you don’t cut them short. Use premium non-oxy fuels and use top shelf oils and that engine will serve you for a long, long time. Shortchange it and you’ll be paying the piper.

Tom Sawvell wrote:

Make no bones about it, alcohol is water based

Not to be an ass, Tom, but as a scientist, I can assure you that alcohol is not water-based. Ethanol is a two carbon chain with a hydroxyl group–no water there. Ethanol ishygroscopic, meaning that it will attract moisture from the air, but it is not water-based.

There is a whole lot of speculation going on here. Higher octane gasolines are actually less volatile. Higher octane levels are used to resist knocking, or early ignition of the fuel/air mixture. If you want to run non-oxy, you’re pretty much stuck with “premium” fuel (in MN, at least). But in a motor designed to run on 87 octane, you’re not benefitting from running a 91 octane fuel (aside from the lack of ethanol, if that floats your boat).

To paraphrase, higher octane fuels take more heat and longer timing to be maximized. Both of which older 2 stroke engines cannot utilize. Therefore you’re essentially blowing those dollar bills out the exhaust.

But as said, you deal with the alcohol, which for regular boaters would need not worry.

I’ll be trying out 87 all year, then when stored away throw prem non oxy in er. Will see how it goes.

I only use Amsoil now also. Sabre and outboard synthetic are the two. Sabre for anything 2-stroke other than my boat. Nhamm is correct. In fact, many areas in southwestern Wisco actually sell non-oxy 87. I tend to fill my wheelers up with that when ever available.

Ralph Wiggum wrote:

Not to be an ass, Tom, but as a scientist, I can assure you that alcohol is not water-based. Ethanol is a two carbon chain with a hydroxyl group–no water there. Ethanol ishygroscopic, meaning that it will attract moisture from the air, but it is not water-based.

There is a whole lot of speculation going on here. Higher octane gasolines are actually less volatile. Higher octane levels are used to resist knocking, or early ignition of the fuel/air mixture. If you want to run non-oxy, you’re pretty much stuck with “premium” fuel (in MN, at least). But in a motor designed to run on 87 octane, you’re not benefitting from running a 91 octane fuel (aside from the lack of ethanol, if that floats your boat).

This ^^^^. Everything you need to know including shooting down the myth of higher octane equalling higher performance. In small engines it actually reduces performance.

Also, the ethanol in regular pump gasoline is only a %. So only 10-15% of the mixture is more hydrophilic, or prone to attract water.

As long as you burn your fuel up within 2-3 months, there isn’t any risk in running E10 or 15 in a modern outboard.

As far as oil is concerned, Pennzoil Premium Plus is all you need to know. Cheaper than full synthetic, burns well, low smoke, low deposits, available almost everywhere including most Walmarts, Menards, etc. I’ve run gallons and gallons of this stuff over the last 15 years with zero issues.

Grouse

OMG! Pennzoil?! Really?!?!?!

My Merc is about 30 years old. I’m in my 4th year with it, and the previous owner had it for 10 years. He ran regular 87 the whole time and I’ve continued that.

@Nhamm, that plan seems to make sense. Since the boat gets frequent use 8-9 months a year that would eliminate the primary benefit of running non-oxy fuel. I can see winterizing with the good stuff, then basically running it off at WOT on the first trip out to encourage a more complete burn off. Then straight back to regular 87.

As for oil — @rplace55 and @mericaneagle — I don’t even want to get into the great Amsoil debate. I’d like to try a synthetic to decrease smoke and fumes, but if I do it will be a TC-W3 certified oil (their 4 stroke stuff is certified, the 2 stroke is not). And yes, @suzuki, my first foray into synthetic would probably be the blend that @thefamousgrouse mentions. Yes, REALLY.

TheFamousGrouse wrote:

As long as you burn your fuel up within 2-3 months, there isn’t any risk in running E10 or 15 in a modern outboard.

How do you define “modern” — or where’s the cut-off? My Merc was built in ’86.

pool2fool wrote:

How do you define “modern” — or where’s the cut-off? My Merc was built in ’86.

Higher octane fuel primarily is used in high pressure engines and with modern computer technology to recognize the fuel as such and advance the timing to take full advantage of the octane rating. Since it burns slower it needs that spark just a tad sooner in “more modern” engines for the fuel to completely “burn out” before being exhausted out.

2 strokes like most all of ours here have pressures that simply wouldn’t utilize that, and the mechanical timing that is essentially set at idle and max doesn’t offer the tools to take full advantage of the higher octane. Not sure how the Etecs work but perhaps they’re different.

Read at some point there was a Merc some years ago that was called firestrike, or lightning, or something similar but essentially had higher electric output to throw more of a charge into the cylinders to ignite more of the fuel. Heck that might’ve been rated for 87 too so a moot point.

From what I can gather, use what’s rated for the engine, and if it’s gonna sit for awhile, use and treat the good stuff.

nhamm wrote:

Read at some point there was a Merc some years ago that was called firestrike, or lightning, or something similar but essentially had higher electric output to throw more of a charge into the cylinders to ignite more of the fuel. Heck that might’ve been rated for 87 too so a moot point.

Is that what the “Thunderbolt” ignition was? My dad had an old 9.8 with Thunderbolt Ignition–it was a screamer.

@nhamm: I get that the higher octane isn’t going to help (any may possibly hurt) a motor like mine — I was just curious about the ethanol content and Grouse’s terminology “modern.”

there are a couple of Minnoco stations in St. Paul where 87 is more expensive than 89. I’ve been meaning to drop by and ask, but I’m wondering if the 87 is actually ethanol-free or a lower ethanol content than the 89? In that case, I could get the 87 that my motor wants AND avoid the ethanol.

pool2fool wrote:

here are a couple of Minnoco stations in St. Paul where 87 is more expensive than 89. I’ve been meaning to drop by and ask, but I’m wondering if the 87 is actually ethanol-free or a lower ethanol content than the 89? In that case, I could get the 87 that my motor wants AND avoid the ethanol.

I believe that the cheaper 89 octane at Minnoco stations is 15% ethanol. That’s why it is a little cheaper than 87 octane (10% ethanol).

http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=MN

Didn’t see anything in St.Paul with 87, but the website isn’t an absolute.

Do you know what’s recommended by Merc for your engine?

That’d make sense Ralph.

Thanks for the link @nhamm. Not much 87 anywhere in the state.

I have no idea what merc recommends to be honest. I’ll ask next time I have it serviced. For now I’ll stick to 87. If I can get E10 instead of E15 I will, but I won’t worry much since I typically use all or most of my fuel within a few days of purchase.

From the Mercury FAQ:

Fuel & Fuel Systems

Question:
Will the use of fuels containing ethanol void my engine warranty?
Answer:
Fuels containing up to 10 percent ethanol are considered acceptable for use in Mercury engines. Fuels containing higher levels of ethanol are not considered acceptable for use, and the use of fuels containing ethanol higher than 10 percent can void the warranty.

thanks Dale!

And to circle back to my earlier thought — the Minnoco 87 is definitely not ethanol-free as that would apparently violate MN law. Gas stations that serve cars can only get an exemption for “premium,” not for 87.

Marinas, on the other hand, are allowed to sell ethanol-free 87 and up.

91 & xd50 oil for me.

I’ll never run 87 in my boat or cheap oil.

I realize I could probably run 87 and get away with it since boat runs 12 months a year but gas quality is something I will not compromise for a few cents.

Ralph Wiggum wrote:

Not to be an ass, Tom, but as a scientist, I can assure you that alcohol is not water-based.

That’s odd. I use water to ferment my wine and make beer. The ethanol plants use water to make ethanol. Its been my experience in making wine and beer that water makes up the bulk of the ingredients. It must just go away, eh?

Well, you’re wrong, Tom, but I’m not going to waste time arguing with ignorance. If you think you’re above science, believe whatever the hell you want to believe.

Tom Sawvell wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Ralph Wiggum wrote:</div>
Not to be an ass, Tom, but as a scientist, I can assure you that alcohol is not water-based.

That’s odd. I use water to ferment my wine and make beer. The ethanol plants use water to make ethanol. Its been my experience in making wine and beer that water makes up the bulk of the ingredients. It must just go away, eh?

I’m no scientist, but this argument reminds me of when I’ve been drinking and I’m getting a little red in the face and my wife asks me how many glasses of water I’ve had, so I start counting the empty cans of Hamm’s and attempting to do the math. Then comes the name-calling.

FishBlood&RiverMud wrote:

91 & xd50 oil for me.

I’ll never run 87 in my boat or cheap oil.

I realize I could probably run 87 and get away with it since boat runs 12 months a year but gas quality is something I will not compromise for a few cents.

If that’s what’s proven to best for your boat then keep it up. The point we’re debating though is not whether higher octane is worth the extra money, but whether it might actually be detrimental to the performance of some outboards in some cases — specifically when the motor is not able to burn 91 as efficiently as it does 87.

pool2fool wrote:

How do you define “modern” — or where’s the cut-off? My Merc was built in ’86.

This is a little hard to define with precision because it wasn’t the engine itself that was the issue, it was components. Many of these components get replaced over time as part of routine maintenance, so it’s more “modern or modernized”.

Adding ethanol to gasoline became very widespread in the late 1980s and early 1990s. By the mid 1990s, all outboard makers were making outboards with components that were designed to work with ethanol with no modifications.

Ethanol could cause degradation of certain rubber compounds like fuel lines. Since most of us replace these over time, it is completely possible to have a 1960s or 70s vintage outboard that runs just fine with E fuel because all of the hoses and fuel lines and other components that ethanol can damage could have long since been replaced.

Basically, if it’s working for you, go with it. I’ve often said it’s a good thing we have ethanol to blame everything on or we’d have to know a lot more about how engines really work and what really causes failures. As this thread has shown, you can fill a book with what most people DON’T know about ethanol, gasoline, and how engines really work.

Grouse

Yes no reason for name calling. I’m not a scientist and I didn’t stay at a Motel 6 last night BUT I have made wine and beer.

I hear what your saying Tom but the fermentation process changes the chemical make up. We’re also talking about a different type of alcohol in petroleum products.

I wish I could explain it better then that but without googling, that the best I can do.