Stirring the Pot

There’s been a pretty good amount of hullaballoo lately with respect to the Minnesota concealed weapons bill. It seems as though there’s an increasing number of people who want to add Minnesota to the list of ‘free’ states that allow people to pack heat.

I’m more than a little curious to know how many people from this board are stirring the pot on this, especially the ones who have had trucks/boats/fishhouses/etc broken into and equipment (especially FTR hats) stolen.

O.K. I’ll bite. By “stirring the pot”, I assume you mean trying to get back the rights that all law abiding US citizens are guaranteed by the 2nd Amendment? But you are right, it does have the support of the majority of Minnesotans. It’s currently being held up by metro politicians. I’ve been a member of CCRN (Concealed Carry Reform Now) for a couple years now. The folks running this thing have been doing a tremendous job behind the scenes to even get the bill to where it is now. Except for in the metro area, carry permits have been pretty easy to get for a long time. This bill would make it possible for permits to be available for all residents. I would hope it will open the door for reciprocal agreements with other States.

Out of curiousity and limited knowledge on the subject, what would a concealed weapon do for you in the event you catch someone breaking in to your property that Gianni mentions?? Also, how else would a concealed weapon benefit a person? A little Devil’s advocate going on here, but you could make me a believer, give it a shot?

Thanks a lot!!!

Jim W

Personally I don’t think defending against simple ‘property crimes’ justifies the use of a gun. Somebody wants to try and knock the windows out of my truck again and steal a couple rods I could see myself chasing somebody down the block and throw a good tackle on them… but using a gun, in any fashion? Nope. No way. I can’t conceive of shooting somebody over a set of golf clubs from my garage or a camera from my car. I’d be more likely to throw the guy my keys and a flashlight to make it easier to find some stuff he might have missed instead of taking a shot at the person or even using the weapon in a threatening manner. Its just not justified in my opinion and I fully support he right of a person to own and use firearms.

When in my mind might the use of a gun be justified? Somebody forceably breaks into my home and threatens me or my family and they’re going to get a heck of fuss on their hands. Guess that’s about it. The idea of packing heat ‘just in case’ a situation arise puts a person in the position of looking for opportunities that “may” justify the use of a gun based on that person’s interpretation of ‘justifiable force’. I guess I don’t like that scenario too much.

I have a very hard time understand the desire to carry a gun in every day situations. I’d be miserably paranoid and worried about every little move I made. And if I wasn’t, well, the idea that somebody could be casual, comfortable, carrying a weapon in public, leads me to the conclusion that that person is no where near serious enough about the implications involved with dealing with firearms.

I got a creepy feeling just talking about this.

Very Well said James

I agree 100% I just don’t understand why anyone would want to carry one in public its not just a danger to other people its a danger to yourself how would you feel if some one came up to you and grabbed you gun and held you or you child at gun point. if anything I think the laws should be more strict on hand guns.

just my two cents.

Nate Cadwell

I would like to lighten this discussion up a little with a question for James. How much ransom would you have paid for those spark plugs? I remember that Yamaha really protesting about the old plugs.LOL!……………..B

I ended up buying them again at $3/pop so I guess I’d have easily paid $20 to see them again. Unharmed, of course!…LOL

I was REALLY ticked off about my truck getting broken into… just not mad enough to shoot someone I guess. And my Yamaha likes the new plugs very much. I’m just glad the Yamaha plugs aren’t as expensive as the opti plugs. I was at the counter at the marine dealership when a guy was buying a new set for his 200 HP motor. Almost $20 a piece and the service guy actually had the brass to say “yeah, and they wear out really fast in those motors too!”

Not a happy camper to say the least.

James I see your point completely, but I’m firm believer in the 2nd ammendment. I should be able to carry a pistol any time I feel like it. Now that being said, when do I need one?? When I’m crawling down out of my treestand at 0′ dark 30 in bear country. I have no desire to carry a pistol in my car 24×7 just in case, but that’s me. I believe the constitution gives us the right, but it’s one right that I don’t need to exercise on a daily basis. I can think of a few occasions in the past when I liked to carry a pistol, but they all have to do with hunting situations.

Believe me, when I moved to the cities I watched the news and thought “Oh my god, they kill a lot of people up here, how am I going to protect myself” Well, I’ve realized the “big city” isn’t so big and for the most part we are all decent human beings. If I felt the need to carry a weapon all the time just to feel safe, then I would move back to my little town in central SD.

But if some crook steps into my house in the middle of the night, all he’ll here is the 12 gauge pumping. If that doesn’t get them running, I’m not sure what would. Personally I’m a firm believer in the old school of an eye for an eye. You steal from me, I beat the snot out of you…..Again though, I still believe in the 2 ammendment very dearly.

I’d like to hear more about scenarios where a concealed weapon is a necessity. Gianni, you started this, what are your thoughts?? When is a concealed weapon called for?? I’d like to be more informed.

The second amendment is a very powerful and important part of the constitution. And although my knowledge of the constitution falls short, very short, of being able to call myself “knowledgeable,” I’ve always been incredibly impressed with the foresight of our founding fathers. Their incredible understanding of how to balance power amongst different branches of goverment is truely genious. That being said, and I’m out on a limb here in my weak attempt to convey what I think they were thinking… so be gentle with me, please.

The Second Amendment guarantees the right of the people to defend itself against its own government… as well as others that might do us harm. Hunting for food to feed one’s family was surely another intended design. Did those responsible for writing the second amendment intend for its citizens to ‘pack heat’ en masse under their clothing everywhere they went as they went about their daily lives. Hard to say for sure, but I personally doubt it.

Remember, when the second amendment was penned, people were carrying kentucky long rifles and muskets or some darn thing. Not 9MM pistols or handguns the size of a persons palm and made completely of composite materials.

I have guns in my home. I love to target shoot and I would honestly fight to ensure my right to continue to “bear arms.” There is a difference though in my thinking though about concealed weapons for any that might want one.

As an NRA member, and a resident of the Milwaukee suburbs, I can think of lots of times that I would like to be carrying some protection.

We’re not talking ‘The Wild Wild West’ here. We’re talking about people who would have to pass training and testing before any permit would be issued. These people would be responsible gun owners who’s last resort to protect themselves or you would be to use a gun.

Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.

I’ve been in situations at local parks where gang-bangers came around to takeover the playground……We left, but even if I had a gun, I would have chosen to leave anyway. Guns don’t replace brains.

I’m reminded of a woman in Texas who had a carry permit and left her gun in her purse in the car while she and her parents had dinner. A robbery took place and the crooks killed 9 people that day including her parents. Her biggest regret was leaving her purse in the car that day because she could have saved many lives.

I do alot of traveling for fishing trips leaving Milwaukee at 2 or 3 AM. I choose to do this just to avoid traffic. I also have a handgun in a case in my truck with me just in case I break down in the middle of nowhere, or even worse, in an area that I wouldn’t want to be even in the daylight. A stranded motorist at night is easy prey for somebody with a bad agenda.

Let the bad guys kill eachother at a record pace and I don’t care. But when the day comes that I find myself and my wife and daughter in a situation that finds us at the mercy of some lunatic, I’d rather go down protecting them than cowering in a corner and begging for our lives.

If I could carry, I would. I’ve had guns in my house for over 30 years, and I haven’t shot anybody yet. But if I need to defend the lives of myself or my family, I wouldn’t hesitate.

Beav

I know what your saying, this is a tough one for me. I like you, don’t know squat about the constitution’s details. My problem, I get a little edgy when talks about anything close to registering firearms is in the air. I’ve seen what happens up north and down under. You are definitely right about how amazing our constitution truely is. I wish I had half the insight these gentleman did.

I own guns, they are hunting tools for me, again that’s me. I’d really like to hear more from the bill’s sponsors to convince me why this bill is so important. James, I think you and I are in complete agreement about this subject. Why do we need to have concealed weapons now days?? Ya, we all have the right to bear arms, but how we interpret the 2nd ammendment has a great bearing on this issue.

I’m trying to think of a scenario in my short life that called for me to have a gun to feel safe. None that I can recall. Does this have any affect on me, no. I don’t own a pistol, as a matter a fact, I’m not that comfortable around them. I just want to find out more info of why this bill is so important to try and see both sides of the issue.

OK, I’m done rambling, for now…..

Great Post Beaver…. I have been working on a reply now for a couple hours and you pretty much summed up my response. I was looking for a link to that story…..

I support the proposed must issue law 100%. I’m hopefull that it will pass. If it does, I will be the first one in line to get the permit.

That said, will I carry a loaded gun all the time? No. When would I carry one??? Not anyone’s business! Including the governments.

Anyone who wants more more info on the National Rifle Association should check out http://www.mynra.com

Member for life.

Jon J.

I have to agree with Beaver, Jon J makes a very solid point when he stated (When would I carry one?? Not anyone’s business.) That in itself can be a very good deterrant to crime. If the scum out there doesn’t know who is armed, they might think twice before commiting their next assault on someone.

Do I, or would I carry? Hmmmm, I’m not telling.

An interesting subject and one with many views. I am all for conceal and carry. As beaver stated those who carry have to go through training and get a permit. We already have many people in and around Minneapolis carrying they are called criminals. By restricting the right to conceal and carry all you do keep protection out of reach to law abiding citizens. I could think of several situations that I would be glad to have a firearm with me here are a few: someone threating harm to my family be it at home, a convience store, school. In all these situations I did not mention “using” the firearm, in most cases I believe that the site of the firearm would deter someone from committing an act of agression towards an otherwise unarmed public. Criminals use guns to frieghting there victims into compling with thier demands, by having the ability to even the playing field you can make some think twice before attempting to commit an act of aggresion. In the Appialachian Law School situation an armed man went into the school, two students ran to thier cars and retrieved thier handguns and confronted the man. He threw down the gun and they subdued him until athourties arrived. No doubt that the presence of the students guns made the “bullly” with the gun think twice. Well thats my two cents worth on this subject. Just remember criminals don’t care about the laws only law abiding citizens do.

I also agree about NOT being able to carry a gun. If you think you now hear about crazy people shooting other people, what do you think is going to happen when two people get into an arguement. Instead of hitting the other person as being the worst thing that might happen, it could be someone pulling his gun and shooting someone. Why did something that drastic happen? Simply because someone had a gun on them and wasn’t thinking clearly due to anger. It is way too dangerous and an open invitation to more crime. Bill

Somebody’s going to come back and give me heck for this one… but here it is.

I’ve never known anyone, myself included, that has ever been in a situation where a gun made them safer. I’ve personally known 3 people that have shot themselves or loved ones, 2 fatally, and each time unintentionally. Perhaps that is the basis for my thinking on the subject. Stastically, a person is astronomically more likely to shoot themselves or a loved with their own gun than they are to be shot by an unknown person with a gun. This is the basis of my concern about giving anyone and everyone the right to conceal a weapon and carry that weapon anywhere they want to go. Granted, you might save a couple lives that would have been lost when a gun could have scared off an attacker…. but I promise you, accidents and poor descision making will claim more lives than would ever be saved.

I’m sure some of you have been in situations where a gun might have been called for and it saved the day…. and you felt in control and safe as a result.

We need to fight to protect the right for all to own guns if they so choose. Giving people the legal right ot carry a concealed weapon into ball parks, bars, malls… everywhere… doesn’t make one’s right to own a gun any more secure.

And that’s all I have to say about that. Have a nice day

In the state of Wyoming people have guns in their cars and trucks. There has been many times when a person in a bar gets into an arguement and goes out to his truck and gets his gun and goes back into the bar and shoots the person he is mad at. Still the ”old wild west” thanks to guns. How do I know this? I have relatives who live there. Bill

Well I wasn’t going to say a word…But I couldn’t pass.

Plain and simple I don’t believe in CCW leave it to the police.

Believe me you don’t want some one like me carrying a 9MM in my boat…And I have a fair I.Q. Just think what it would be like if millions of Americans were carrying guns..I grew up with guns have done tons of hunting..and I’m a very fair marksman..But the biggest reason I quit hunting was because of the Other guy…over crowded hunting grounds..been shot near, way to many times..lots of people have no common sense,none what so ever and there are those whom don’t think the law applies to them the list goes on and on… So I don’t want to see people running around this country like it was 150 years ago..The USA is not the Wild West…That is why the rest of the world wants to come here…Any way just my two cents..I think we should end quarrles by casting ability……..

hmmmm ReefRunner… I think I see your point… if I was wearing a wild animal on MY head I doubt I would want ANYONE carrying guns…. heck they might shoot you accidently while trying to save you from being mauled by that bear in your hair!!!!!

(sorry all… just had to lighten it up a tad!)

I think everyone that has a gun for hunting/sport shooting or for self defense could write for hours about their own opinions on this topic, most won’t cuz it’s such a personal/complicated topic. One aspect nobody has mentioned that I think is something you need to ask yourself before you carry a gun is: IF the “appropriate” time ever came up……..could you and would you pull the trigger to take someones life when you have to make a split second decision? If a situation ever came up where you thought you needed to go so far as to pull your gun out, the other person would have to be in a very unstable condition. If you pull a gun out, you better be prepared to pull the trigger. If that person sees a gun they may try to take it from you and use it on you. Personally, I would give up my wallet/fishing stuff/or anything materialistic before shooting someone. (Now if you tried to take my EFN hat……I just might pull out 2 guns!!!!). Seriously though, I think thats something to consider if anybody ever carries a gun for self defense…..Could you pull the trigger????? Just some more fuel to the fire.

Now that was funny!…LOL

Just so everybody knows, ReefRunner (AKA DeadBunnyHead) hasn’t even asked me to take that picture down… and of course I would if he asked. What a trooper!

First of all, a reciprocal agreement between states. Now that’s a hoot. They can’t get together on game laws let alone CCW laws. If you carry a gun for protection, you had better be able to use it if you pull it out. You had then better be prepared to prove in court that you were in fear for your life. If you shoot someone for breaking into your truck or your boat, it will be the biggest regret of you life.

A lot of good arguments here for both sides, this is a tough one and I can see both sides, I guess I fall some where in the middle. First let me start with a little background on myself. I am a gun owner who definitely believes in the second amendment, most of my guns are for hunting, some are collectibles & I also own one handgun that I use mostly for target shooting, I would NEVER use it to protect my property, human life is more valuable than anything I own, even if they are scum bags. Would I use it for personal protection? if I felt that my life or my family’s life was in danger you bet I would in a heart beat, but I have never been in that situation, nor have I ever known anyone that has, but that is not to say that it could not happen, we see it on the news every night. I agree with both James & Beaver, but I am not sure about carrying a concealed weapon everywhere you go, especially in a bar where there is drinking and clear heads do not always prevail. Beaver I agree with you 100% on having protection with you when you travel, and you can carry a cased unloaded hand gun in your vehicle without a permit, a cased 9mm can be loaded in short order if need be, but what about in a road rage situation, another place where clear heads do not always prevail. So what is the answer? I do not know, there are no easy answers, and I am afraid that this debate will be going on for a long time to come. Just one more thing all my guns are locked up in a safe and I am the only one who knows the combo, I do not believe in displaying guns where they could get into the wrong hands, this is how kids end up dead! I urge all gun owners PLEASE KEEP YOUR GUN’S LOCKED UP! Just my 2 cents.

I must clearly specify that I would never use a gun to protect any ‘property’.

My life and the lives of my family would be defended to the death if need be.

It’s sad that we have to think along those lines. However it is reality.

As long as there are criminals that are willing to kill and who have no respect for human life, I will be ready to defend myself because by the time I call 911 to ask for help….I may as well be calling the coroner.

Even if I was given the right to carry, I can’t say whether I would or wouldn’t. I can say with all certainty though, that if the time came for me to save my life or someone elses, and I wasn’t prepared……I’d kick my self in the rear all the way to the grave for not going down fighting.

I’m more afraid of an irresponsible pet owner with a pit bull than I am of a responsible gun owner.

Beav

I am all for carry and conceal. I think there is other states that allow carry and conceal and from what I have heard there crime rates have dropped. In the states were the normal person can not carry and conceal the criminals have nothing to worry about because they are the only ones with the guns, ( they don’t follow laws). If carry and conceal was allowed the criminals would think twice because they would not have a clue who had a gun on them.

Now that’s some kind of response!

Okay, just to go over some facts:

34 States (the free states) currently have shall-issue or no law (Vermont).

1. The ‘wild west’ scenarios that have occurred since the states started passing these laws were:

the Hollywood bank robbery – draconian gun control

mass murder of coworkers in Hawaii – draconian gun control

mass murder of cowerkers in Maryland – draconian gun control

the list goes on and on and….

2. Road rage/fights escalating into shooting matches – hasn’t happened, or the VPC, MMM and Brady would be all over it.

3. Vermont has absolutely no laws regulating the carrying of weapons – and never has, yet year after year has one of the lowest rates of violent crime. Who tops the list? Illinois, New York, California to name a few. Maryland and Taxachussets are fast approaching.

4. “A gun is more likely to kill someone you know…” Not true. The only study to ever reach this conclusion was the Kellerman study, and Kellerman himself has been forced to admit that the results were severely altered by his flawed methods. Michael Bellesiles(sp?) is also coming under fire for the appearance of manufactured data in his last book Arming America and is now in danger of losing his professorship due to serious scholarly misconduct.

5. The only study to stand up to a mountain of critical analysis was done by a Yale professor of economics who was not really interested in the gun control debate, but was shocked to see that no objective research seemed to exist on the subject. He is now embroiled in the CCW debate due to his book More Guns, Less Crime which shows a statistically significant reduction in violent crime occurs after the passage of a CCW bill.

6. Police are very good at deterring crime. That is why if you find yourself the victim of a crime, there will likely not be a police officer standing behind you to save your bacon. Furthermore, the SCOTUS has ruled time and again that the police have no obligation to protect you and cannot suffer liability for failing to do so. They will, however, come to file reports and draw chalk outlines.

7. “Poor decision making…” In states that allow CCW, the rate at which police shoot “the wrong guy” is astronomically higher than the rate for normal citizens.

8. Property crimes are reduced by CCW. The fact that someone might be carrying makes it more likely that onlookers will confront a thief. If all they do is run away, everyone is still better off.

9. “It’s a sad statement about society…” Isn’t it much more so that I should lead a decent life, raise a family, pay taxes, and constantly be at risk of losing it all because I am not allowed to defend it against a would-be attacker? If you come away from this post with one thing, let it be the phrase, “My life is not worthy of the protections afforded ‘important’ people such as politicians and police.”

10. “People could take your gun…” Not true – the people who are most likley to have their own guns used against them??? Police

11. “The odds of being attacked….” Try this: The odds of being the victim of violent crime are waaaay higher than the odds of winning the lottery, yet someone gets that money. Would you play Russian roulette with a 6-gun? What about a gun with 1,000 chambers? 10,000?? Me neither, but that’s what we’re forced to do every day when we leave our homes.

Now personal feelings:

There have been several instances where I have gone to confront someone. I have never pulled a gun. Confrontation is a fact of life in a world where crime exists. If you pull up to a dock and someone is breaking into your truck, are you going to ask them when they’ll be done so that you can come back? I would agree that property crimes are not worth shooting someone, but I will certainly confront them rather than suffer injustice at their hands. If I am willing to defend my rights from foreign invaders and terrorists, why in the sam he11 would I allow some scumbag to violate them so that they can feed their drug habit – or worse yet, for kicks on a Saturday night.

Take the argument to its extreme: Would you shoot someone who was raping your wife or daughter? In the end, everyone will come out alive and after some therapy, could lead a normal life. So by y’all, you should just go into the next room and call the police. Maybe turning the radio up really loud will help drown out the screaming.

When I do go to confront Mr or Mrs Criminal who is breaking into my truck, what am I supposed to carry? A baseball bat seems like a pretty darned ineffective weapon in a gunfight. If I was being threatened, and I considered it a serious threat, you could bet your sweet butt I would take the necessary steps to protect myself regardless of whether our benevolent sherriff thinks my life is worthy. Criminals know that they are likely to end up in a dangerous situation – it’s the nature of their business. Given their situation, how many do you think would hesitate to arm themselves.

If your happy and you know it clank your chains…

Any by “Stirring the pot” I meant calling your reps every hour, on the hour, and writing letters and emails.

I’m impressed people….. we swung from one extreme to the other and nobody even came close to taking a shot at another that chose to share their opinions. That’s really what makes this type of post great…. significant participation with the reasonable assumption that it won’t get ugly or break down into a name calling match.

Happy to add my 2 cents and even happier to know most if not all that shared,

Thanks Gianni for taking the time to point the things out that are well known by a few but overlooked by many. Anyone who doubts whether CCW works just look at the records of the states who have it compared to lets say Washington DC which has the tightest laws in America. No comparison what so ever. If I were a criminal I would absolutly love gun control!!! I can’t help but notice the swelling crime rate in some contries that have recently implemented gun bans.

Bob Knutson

This is how a debate if you want to call it is sussposed to go. No name calling just stating opinions. Even though I am a supporter of CCW I can see others points. Could make for some good campfire conversations this summer.