Public input on Fish Passage at Lock & Dam 3

July 7, 2010
U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, St. Paul District
MVP-PA-2010-078
Contacts:
Shannon Bauer: 651-290-5108, 612-840-9453, [email protected]
Mark Davidson: 651-290-5201, 651-261-6769, [email protected]

Public invited to provide input on fish passage at Lock and Dam 3

ST. PAUL, MINN. – The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, St. Paul District, is
currently studying ways to improve fish passage through Lock and Dam 3, which
is located upstream of Red Wing, Minn.

The public is invited to attend an informational meeting concerning this
study. Time will be provided for attendants to ask questions and provide
feedback on the study. The meeting will be held Tuesday, July 27, starting at
6 p.m. at the Red Wing Public Library, located at 225 East Ave.

The Corps believes that improving fish passage through Lock and Dam 3 would
provide migratory fish moving upriver from Pool 4 an additional 45,000 acres
of channel and river lake habitat in the Mississippi and St. Croix rivers.
This would improve the continuity of habitat for fish, as well as also
benefit a number of mussel and migratory fish species.

The agency began this study on improved fish passage in February and
anticipates completing it in 2011. It is being completed under the authority
of the Upper Mississippi River System – Environmental Management Program. The
estimated total cost for the feasibility study is $650,000, of which $348,000
has been provided by the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act, or ARRA, of
2009.

The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, St. Paul District, serves the American
public in the areas of environmental enhancement, navigation, flood damage
reduction, water and wetlands regulation, recreation sites and disaster
response. It contributes around $175 million to the five-state district
economy. The more than 638 employees work at more than 40 sites in five
upper-Midwest states. For more information, see http://www.mvp.usace.army.mil.

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Its on my calendar.

You guys will have to let me know if this would improve my fishing on the St. Croix. By letting some of those pool 4 pigs migrate north.

You’re talking about the Asian Carp, right?

By the way, what happened to the original thread on this subject, huh?????????????????

If it’s possible for me to make the drive down there, I’ll be there.

Yes, You guys will get all the walleyes. You will have to beat them away with a stick.

I think that the Army Corp should focus their efforts in preventing fish migration through the dams to try to stop invasive carp passage. Mn legislators are alread pleading with Minnesota Congressional Delagation Members to hydrolically separate the mississippi river basin from the lake superior basin in an effort to prevent asian and big head carp migration from entering Lake Superior becuase the invasives are already in the Mississippi River. The corp wants to spend 5 years to fix that situation, but that is to slow.

The Army Corp arggues that this is impossible because invasives are going to get through no matter what. I believe this is an unexceptalb answer and a misleading lazy excuse. Lets spend the money on trying to fix this looming problem. Another thing is the Army Corps ability to act at the spead of molases.

Walleyes per square mile will decrease in pool 4 if they are more readily available to pass upstream through the dam and spread out in pool 3 and the St. Croix.

Don’t be quick to jump into bed with the individuals (Army Corp.) that didn’t give a rip about quality migrating fish (Walleye and Sturgeon) to begin with. Now all of the sudden they claim that they do, But this new found love of fish will fast track the ability for dangerous invasives to fulfill their manifest destiny to inhabit the entire mississippi river.
What is disturbing to me is that now all of the sudden the Corp. doesn’t give a rip about the migration of invasive carp that we are dealing with today.

“nothing is broken and can only get worse.” we will be looking back at these times on the river and go “Wow that was awsome.”

I think someone should tell the Army Corp

All:

The issue of native fish passage and the spread of invasive species is a difficult one. There are several different issues brought up here, and I’m not sure I can take the time to go over them all.

I can tell you the issue of both fish passage and the spread of invasives (asian carp and others) is something the Corps is very aware of, and in discussion with our partner agencies (USFWS, both DNRs). The issues can be conflicting – namely, how do you provide benefits to our native species through fish passage while also minimizing the potential spread of exotics.

The issue of “fish passage” is something that has grown tremendously in the last 10-15 years. The Corps of Engineers has been involved with several fish passage projects over on the Red River, and is currently building one up at Red Lake. There is also a potential project to implement fish passage down at Lock and Dam 22 on the Mississippi. I’ll note that the reasons to pursue a study up here at L&D 3 are complicated and I won’t go into them here, but you can certainly ask this at the upcoming meeting.

The concern with asian carp is very fair. It’s also very complicated, and I don’t mean that as a cop out. These fish are showing up in several places, and those places aren’t always connected. In other words, there are many vectors that are moving these things around. While implementing barriers on a river like the Miss may seem to be a sound idea, they are expensive to construct, operate, and their effectiveness on a river as large as the Mississippi is perhaps questionable. I’m not saying it shouldn’t be attempted, but it must be recognized what the risks are, as well as the likelihood for success. There are also tradeoffs with fish barriers, such as costs, impacts to our native fish, and social impacts to boaters.

As to the concern of whether fish passage will accelerate the spread of asian carp… perhaps. But asian carp are strong swimmers, and it’s likely they would be able to move through L&D 3 during spring highwater. It could be argued that we are better off using fish passage to try and enhance the health of our native fish populations in order to better ward off the threat to exotics.

As for the banter on this board, it’s fine to disagree on this, as the answers certainly aren’t clear. Also good to see lively discussion – means that people care.

Bring your questions and concerns to the public meeting. I won’t be there, but my colleagues will and would be happy to address these valid concerns.

Elliott Stefanik
Biologist
US Army Corps of Engineers, St. Paul District

No disrespect Mr., but I have a feeling that those who bring questions to this meeting will get the same generic response that you just posted.
Let me take a guess here. The fish passages are already a ‘go’, the meetings are nothing but lip service so the public can feel like they had a chance to voice their concerns, and past practice tells us all that you don’t buck the Corps., the FWS, and the DNR.
I guess you can deal with the invasives after the fact eh?

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No disrespect Mr., but I have a feeling that those who bring questions to this meeting will get the same generic response that you just posted.
Let me take a guess here. The fish passages are already a ‘go’, the meetings are nothing but lip service so the public can feel like they had a chance to voice their concerns, and past practice tells us all that you don’t buck the Corps., the FWS, and the DNR.
I guess you can deal with the invasives after the fact eh?

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I believe you are right. I also believe that a dam that allows free fish passage must be a lot cheaper and that they are hiding behind the idea of environmental stewardship to promote it.

First of all Mr. Corp guy. I like the way that you felt obligated to include your full name and job title. Wow I am very impressed I must say. Maybe we should all include our job titles from now on. In my profession I have come to realize that Government Agencies that are supposed to be authority figures and stewards of the environment typically don’t give a rip and many times don’t know jack.

Second. You refer to cost alot in your reply. Apparently protecting the river is not as important as cost. That is pretty much what i thought was driving this decission and you just proved my throught process.

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I’ll note that the reasons to pursue a study up here at L&D 3 are complicated and I won’t go into them here, but you can certainly ask this at the upcoming meeting.

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This will be the first question of the meeting!

…and I’ll bet a quarter this is not the Corps idea nor they support it judging by the Corp’s own data.

Thanks for stopping in and shedding some light on this issue.

Joe, your post about titles confuses me. Why wouldn’t someone from the Corp and a career biologist not list there title?

What makes me scratch my head even more is…

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I also believe that a dam that allows free fish passage must be a lot cheaper and that they are hiding behind the idea of environmental stewardship to promote it.

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It’s true, I’m not up on dam design and your statement maybe 100% true, but could you educate me on why you feel a fish passage way would make a dam less expensive to run?

People are the largest cost to any business. The operation of this dam is incorporated in the operation of the lock. The busiest lock on the Mississippi River I might add. The Corp couldn’t cut back on people just because of a fish passage way.

Not cheaper to run. I never said that. I meant cheaper to construct as far as materials costs for concrete, steele, labor and such. I never said cheaper to run. I don’t know where you got that from. We are talking Millions of dollars in concrete and steel. If you can use less then you are talking saving millions in construction.

Also dredging and land manipulation and hauling are extremenly expensive and difficult in the river.

It is my opinion or fear and nothing that I know for a fact. Just an opinion.

Federal Funding is determined by cost benefit. I believe the cost benefit of keeping asian carp (or at least fricking trying or find people who will) would far out way the cost benefit of letting sturgeon spawn on the apple river again etc.

I would even settle for making it a little more difficult for invasives to migrate if nobody is willing to try to come up with a way to control the invasives. Lets not just give them the keys. Apparently the dams do something because we currently do not have a huge asian carp problem now as far as i can see. If there were no dams at all then we would have had a problem years ago. And yes I do think we will have a situation soon especially if we just give the invasives the keys to lock and dam #3 for the future.

Sorry for the miss quote Joe.

It never accured to me that they would be completely taking out the dam and constructing a new one with a fish passage.

I have to go back and re read this.

No big deal. You Know. I have spent the last few weeks researching this topic. At first I thought it would be cool to have genetic variability widened for sturgeon. Then I realized that dams, even ones with locks on them can slow down the spread of invasives. Then someone at the Corp. told me that there is no way to stop invasives and that upset me. 100 years ago nobody would have thought that a huge ship could go to the twin cities from the gulf of mexico and we put people on the moon, but we can’t try to stop invasives. The solution to the invasives would be to shut the locks down, but that would take serious legislation and big coorporations and the federal government would not let that happen.

I just wish that the Corp. would at least try. Impliment bubble walls, or electric barriers or cobily whalips or huskerdoos. I don’t care anything. Just don’t say “well your screwed if your below Coon Rapids, or St. Anthony Falls.” That is unexceptable.

Shutting down not only the locks…but also keeping the roller gates closed AND stopping fish from migrating around the Lock and Dam via (in this case) the Vermilion River.

I’m really hoping that Tuesday the 27th will have some answers.

Six hundred and fifty thousand dollars for a feasibility study on fish passage for a single lock and dam????????????????
I know, it’s only taxpayer dollars and if you didn’t spend it someone else would.
I could list all the reasons for it and all the reasons agin it, but then I suppose I’d have to bill you for $650,000.02 minus the $650,000.00 since I don’t have a degree behind my name.

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Six hundred and fifty thousand dollars for a feasibility study on fish passage for a single lock and dam????????????????

I know, it’s only taxpayer dollars and if you didn’t spend it someone else would.

I could list all the reasons for it and all the reasons agin it, but then I suppose I’d have to bill you for $650,000.02 minus the $650,000.00 since I don’t have a degree behind my name.

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I totally agree Herb.

I will again throw the same thing out there. we need to stop looking at the feasability of the passage, or whether it will do this, or do that.

our economy is struggling to produce, and we are going to WASTE that kind of money on a study??? W…T…H…

I need to put a new roof on my house, but maybe i’ll buy a new car because it will help my migration…

All this for a paddle fish and a clam? That is what I got from it anyway

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All this for a paddle fish and a clam? That is what I got from it anyway

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Say that when there are no more paddlefish. On the flip side then the asian carp can make it here sooner/easier also. I do not have strong feelings about the project either way but your post kind of made me have to say something. Many species are coming back because of river improvements.

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Wisconsin’s DNR says now is the time to add a fish passage, and it has threatened to deny two key permits to the Corps if the project doesn’t include one. ~

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Yesterday, I wasn’t too worried about this going through because it didn’t make any sense. Today I’m thinking this meeting could be the most important meeting since the dam was built in ’38.