Is conservation out of style?

I know this topic has come up over and over again but I think it’s worth repeating especially since we are getting to that time of year when the fish are concentrated and seem to vulnerable for an overharvest. I’m aiming this post primarily at H20, Fireflick, Reefrunner and Dustin. You four have earned the respect and admiration of many. I think what you do has a big impact on what others do or aspire to do. Most everyone who is a regular reader knows that you guys are successful fisherman. The reports and photos of your bigger fish are great. The constant stream of stringer photos are not so great. I know it’s “selective harvest” and it’s completely legal and I’ve heard the DNR’s side that it does’nt hurt the resource, but I’m sure it does’nt help it. I’m not angry about this, just getting very concerned. You guys have alot of influence. People see these stringer photos and want to be like you. A successful day seems to be judged by the size of the stringer. You guys are leaders in this field and are in a position to set an example for everyone else. Show us pictures of the big ones, tell us you had a great day and leave the stringer photos for the clients photo album. Thanks, Mike

Guides are working for customers. If the customer wants to eat some fish, then it would be foolish of a guide to insist that the customers fish go back. Some of these people may only fish one or 2 times a year-so this is their only opportunity to catch fish.

The one time I fished w/ James, he release the 1st 3 fish (23″ 21″ 17″) before even asking if we wanted to keep some fish. We took home 4 fish that day (2 each for me and my old man) from 17-19″.

These guys dont make a living by spending hours on end running this website. They make their money guiding. Stringer photos are great for advertising. You will also notice that there are rarely ever more than 6 fish in the photo. They arent wasting fish or exploiting a fishery, they are running a business and successfully promoting a great fishery. In the long run, that helps all of us out.

Good point Dave. I think every paying client laying out cash to fish is entitled to keep a few. I know I did when I fished with James.
I think what Blackbeard is getting at is that the pictures of the clients with their stringers should not be included in the reports. I guess that’s up to the discretion of the Gentlemen that the post is aimed at.
I’ll say this in response to Blackbeard…..for years and years guys have been fishing the Mississippi at Red Wing in the Winter and Spring when the fish congregate at the dam. This is a well known bite and thousands of anglers have taken advantage of it over the years. I’m 34 yrs old and have heard about and known about this bite for almost all my life. The fact that these reputable guides post pictures of their catches will not, in my opinion, increase the fishing pressure or the take home rates.
My 2 cents.

Dave, Its seems that you have missed my point. You do not need to defend James. I know he is a great guy. I know he makes his living guiding. Were stringer photos what convinced you to hire him? I dought it. My point is that James, Dustin, Jarrad and Greg influence more than just potential customers with these stringer photos. We know they are going to keep eaters for their customers, but photos such as stringer shots can send the wrong message.

My point was, that if I was making a living taking people fishing, I would put any and all pictures anywhere I possibly could.

Besides, I enjoy looking at those pics! I like to see the big fish, but I also like to see the fat tummies on the stringers of keepers. It just goes to show how healthy the fishery is.

Just want to say that i respect everyone’s opinions .and I think what we discuss on here helps everyone who takes the time to read it..not just look at the pics…

I wrote something early about this, but i guess i’m not seeing how a string of fish send’s the wrong message.

Let me throw this thought at you guys….Look at pictures today of fish on stringers compared to those taken 20 yrs ago. From what i’ve seen, pictures “back in the day” are those that might send a wrong message. You guys all know what i’m talkin about….1 or two guys w/a yard full of fish.

I think conservation efforts today are so much greater than before (i think most of you would all agree)…and it doesn’t bother me one bit to see somebody’s stringer of fish…because in my mind…i believe they’ve probably spent the day releasing several other fish.

I also thinks its a select few that are causing this conversation to take place anyway. By that I mean the few who do keep everything and anything.

I think the four guides mentioned are guilty of not telling the whole story. What they leave out is that 6 fish were kept for their clients to eat and the other 25 to 50 fish caught were released. Some days at this time of year it could even be as high as 100 fish or more released with 3 or 4 people in the boat fishing. Anyone of us could go fishing right now and catch 6 fish to keep to eat and have our piture taken with them on a stringer. Would we, the average fisherman, be bad people for it? Some seem to think so. Now if it was a stringer of 24 fish [6 fish per fisherman with 4 fisherman] it would still be legel but yes it wouldn’t look so good. I’m not trying to argue or defend people but I am trying to say that we need to be reasonable here. I put 99% of the fish back that I catch but that doesn’t mean everyone has to put all theirs back. And if a boat of people catch 50 to 100 fish and put all but say 6 back, I say great. I do know that ALOT of the people that they guide are from out of state and have spent traveling money, food money, motel money and guide money for a days outting and want a few fish to eat and have their picture taken with a small stringer of fish to show loved ones and friends back home. [for the scrapbook]. Thanks, Bill

Blackbeard, If Dave missed your point, Then so did I. What is your point,exactly,and what do you think they should change? These guys push conservation more than anyone I know!

Eating fish is fundamental to my enjoyment of the sport. Stringer shots do not bother me, and there’s no where that a person could draw the line. Is a picture of an eater going into the livewell too much? How about a picture of three best friends standing on the ice with 50 crappies at their feet?

Seems to me I just wrote something on this just yesterday…………. hmmmm……..

If we’re sending the wrong message with stringer photos, what’s the right message in holding up a hog? I think the perception isn’t too far from naturalism if a stringer makes someone cringe. The truth is that we’ve been part of this planet’s ecosystem all along and there is evidence upon evidence that the conservation of any species improves when it is made legal game.

Is the perception that of 100 fish released and 6 kept that tomorrow they come back and take 6 more from the same 100 fish? As if to think there’s only those 100 fish? Absurd.

Fish don’t stay in one spot all the time and of the 100 caught, there could be a 1000 more too fat to eat or be concerned about some spec of plastic dangling in front of their noses. Those who make it will provide 1000’s more fish to be enjoyed in moderation for anglers of many generations to come.

These guys don’t keep a limit every time they go out and neither do the guys who “get the message”. We can’t worry about 1 or 2 perceptions that won’t dig deep enough to put the whole truth together over 98 who are making a difference, in a positive way, because they have.

If we’re going to be concerned about sending the wrong message, even silence accomplishes misinterpretation. No words, no pics, no site, no info…………..is STILL going to send the wrong message to someone. Understanding is our own responsibility………….don’t take it on a whim’s perception.

I keep fish 2 or 3 times a year,just love a good fish fry.i also release hundreds of fish eash year.The stringer pics dont bother me as much as the pics of the guys cought with 500 eyes over ther limit.So glad to see the guys you targetted in your post not coming on in there own defence,there is no need!Fish are a renewable resource.

Mike, I can see your point about the stringer photos going with the client and not to this site. I also know that if this is the only way that they make a living that they need to promote themselves. If you don’t catch fish for your clients they probably won’t be back to hire you again. If they are willing to pay the money you can’t hardly tell them they can’t take a limit. This is something we have to live with, as long as they keep the right size for eating. I started fishing at Red Wing in the winter 30 years ago. The major difference is now there might be 50 boats at the dam in Dec. instead of 10. I do have a problem when a guide from this site tells someone in your boat to throw a walleye back that was caught under the jaw with a jig(not a sonar) because it was snagged. He went on to say that if he didn’t throw it back he would turn us in. That verses the number of limits they take out in a year. That left a real burning sensation in my pants.

I hope the Kid is a better psychic than I am and everything is just A-OK. The message I think being perceived, maybe not by the regulars who do most of the communicating on this site but by the 1000’s or tens of 1000’s that look in on this site, is that the fishery is in great shape(which it is!) if the main guys are taking limits than it probably won’t hurt anything if I do. There’s nothing wrong with any of that, its just when you multiply it over and over and over again, can this fishery take it? I don’t know, time will only tell. What I do know, and it’s not based on a “whims perception” is that a no other time in our history have anglers been able to hit the water armed with the information that they now are able to get, you know the up to the minute(almost) who,what,where,when and how, and if you’re still unsure you can buy the video. There is more recreation time available to people than ever before, go out on wednesday and might think it’saturday. We even have a guy at Evert’s with a personallity who’ll actually talk to you and tell you what’s going on. All these things are great for the sport and I’m not trying to cut them down. But with all this knowledge comes the responsibilty to take care of this fishery. I have fished this pool for many, many years, before the Nuke plant kept the upper reaches open year round. I know it has always received pressure, but not the well informed kind it gets these days. I fish the pool about 80 days a year, not as much as some,but alot more than others. In my observation, 9 times out of 10, I see the same scene play out over and over, set the hook, net the fish, in the box. Perceived on a whim? There’s nothing wrong with keeping fish but when you start doing multiplication you can’t help but wonder if this fishery can sustain it. I hope it can, sounds like most of you think so to. I’m off my soapbox. by the way, in response to Gianni, I don’t have a problem with a photo of you and your friends with 50 crappies on ice, but if you could elaborate to the masses on the where,what,when and how, and maybe offer a video about it, I think you might have a problem with it.

In regards to the perceived over fishing during the winter on pool 4….

If you have followed my posts on this topic you know I would fully support a C&R fishery there from December thru mid May. (From open water ice up thru the inland lake opener in the spring)

However, every DNR study on pool 4 consistently reports that the winter harvest is only a small percentage of the overall harvest. I have fished every winter down there since 1989 and can say the fishing now is as good as ever. I hate to admit it, but it don’t look like there is anything broke tat needs fixing!

Jon J.

Blackbeard,

I see your point, and I don’t disagree with a lot of what you said. I’m sure you’ve followed the other forum with a similar issue/post. That being said, I think where I stand it pretty clear. I don’t think pictures of limits of fish hurt the fishery one ounce.

What hurts the fishery, the guys/gals you mentioned above, set the hook, net, in the box. Heck, I’ve watched this hundreds of times down there and just shake my head. I don’t think these guys are thinking, “I saw James’ clients with a limit, so I’m gonna keep everything I catch” These guys are meat hunters, not matter what they see, hear or read here will affect there decision to keep that 10-12″ sauger. Just my two cents.

I honestly can’t believe the controversy some pictures have started.

Isn’t that what makes this site great? Between this one and the very similar one on the walleye forum, i’m barely getting any work done trying to keep up….I think this good conversation though…Better than talking about the vikings…lol..jk.

Just want to clear the air here blackbeard……….it appears I unintentionally made you feel that you were specifically referred to on “a whim’s perception”. That’s not what I was aiming for. I was aiming at those who “get the wrong message” by jumping on, looking at the stringer pics, and automatically assuming that a resource is being depleted without looking a little deeper or having the wisdom to examine the notion that there might be more than what meets the eye. It appears I ruffled a feather and I assure you, this was not my aim. This is a great topic and one sure to bring out our innermost convictions, but there’s no cause to make it personal and I didn’t intend for it to feel that way.

Peace be with us.

(I just went back and looked and………I did word that poorly and I can see where it’s VERY easy to misunderstand my mind’s eye – Sorry!)

Check out this article….Kind of interesting:

http://www.state.sd.us/gfp/DivisionWildlife/Fishing/Info/SelectiveHarvest.htm

Something that hasnt been mentioned, and to be honest I dont know the answer to this either.

Would the number of large fish caught and released on Pool 4 be lower if more small fish (ie competition) were not harvested???? I know lakes are rivers are different, but LOTW has a ton of smaller fish, Vermilion, Ottertail, Big Pine-all great fisheries, but where a fish over 5 lbs is not an common occurance.

Any thoughts?????

It’s been studied that in lakes, overpopulation certainly results in stunted fish for the overpopulated species. I can only “guesstimate” that rivers would be similar if the competition for food became to intense. It’s really based on predatorial numbers vs. the amount of prey available to sustain them. The ecosystems are different, but it would seem to me that the principles of supply and demand would equally apply to both systems.

Great question DaveB!!!

this discussion is a tribute to the greatness of this site…. though I hope blackbeard is not a regular who adopted an alias to initiate this discussionm (because there was no reason to!)… as I would expect there is no screaming lynch mob after him, only calm discussion aimed at getting to the point…. I admire that.. check out some other boards and see how quickly something like this degrades to a name-calling shouting match….. anyway…. thanks to all for this discussion….

The point is or was:

1. do stringer shots influence choices made by the average angler..

(it seems this point was added to subsequently to include)

2. does complete and timely information hurt a fishery…..

further information reported

3. that as informed and focused anglers we CAN hurt a fishery……

4. It was also speculated that taking smaller fish increases the size of the remaining fish due to less competition.

OK.. Im NOT John Pitlo… but I did take a class from him, graduated in fisheries, and worked for a period of time in fisheries…. and have continued to read and keep up on current theories and practices…. so I do have a fairly informed opinion….. though NOT a professional one…

1. Do stringer shots influence the average angler? My opinion on this is that the effect would be negligable. I think its the whole package that would influence an angler… Anglers are for the most part a head strong bunch… I doubt people will keep or not keep limits based on what they see posted. That is a personal choice.

2. Does complete and timely information hurt a fishery? Certainly if anglers are armed with better knowledge and techniques they will be more effective on the water. It seems to me from casual observation that more anglers are doing the right things in the right places… I have no creel census information to indicate if this is indeed resulting in higher numbers of fish being removed.

3. Gosh this is similar to point 2. but I would theorize that yes indeed informed and focused anglers CAN hurt a fishery.. it used to be that 10% of the anglers caught 90% of the fish… I think that percentage is changing… and what this may mean is that those 10% anglers are now catching less than before because of competition with a larger informed “percentage”…… and I suppose some of them are not too happy about it….. therefore from their perspective the fishery has indeed been hurt….. I cant blame them for thinking that way….

4. This is a basic population theory… it applies to just about any ecosystem. Its all about sustainable biomass. The main point is do smaller fish compete direclty with larger fish for food. The answer to that is usually NO… larger PREDATOR fish frequently utilize a larger size of food and inahabit a slighty different territory. But HERES the killer… IF the larger fish are removed.. its the smaller fish that MUST replace them… this is known as recruitment… if the smaller fish are harvested or otherwise removed before they can grow to large size OR if competition for food is SO FIERCE in the smaller size range it handicaps their ability to grow and REPLACE the larger fish that eventually die from natural causes even if they are NOT removed from the fishery….

so far in the river the food base is phenominal… but guess what? we have a wild card coming in that COULD change everything…. this is the “asian” carp… these fish will compete with the smaller fish for food and lock the biomass up in a size that cant be utilized by any of our current predators….. this could mean the start of stunted populations of predators on the river, if they are unable to find prey of a usable size…

this IS an issue we should ALL be very concerned about and in the long run be a much bigger issue than “harvest”…..

well.. Im sure John Pitlo would have a more informed opinion…. but until he steps in and elaborates on (or corrects)my opinions… this is all I have to say…….

great discussion… we are ALL concerned about this resource….. Im sure of that….

I think Not..
I have been fishing my whole life and I started young. My grandfather whom never fished in his life didn’t like it.
But he had a huge impact on mine. He told me once and I’ll never forget it…When you go into the outdoors always bring back more than you take with. And I’m not talking about a limit of fish.. Now I’m not the garbage man but my splash well usally always needs cleaning out when I get home.

My view on all this information sharing is this. If you become a better fisherman you will catch more fish, you catch more you will release more. So if you are taught to catch more and bigger fish you will let more go. Just my opinion.

This site in my eyes has done everything to promote conservation. James Holst is one very hard working young man..with a gift at teaching people. He has built this information network into a fantastic thing for all sportsman to enjoy.
This education starts with the kids..a new generation.
The things James and this network has done every year for the kids is fantastic. Lots of people and man hours to pull this off…He is educating the young and the old, it is just the old are slower at learning.
All the kids that I know whom have particapated in these progams can’t wait until next year.
So if you really want to do something about conservation than get involved. Help out with these youngsters. They love and need the adult guidance.

As far as my posts Promoting Products..
I’m a retiring Tournament Fisherman..I have NO sponsors.
I have used Super Doos for more than 8 years in the cold water conditions they just flat out catch fish. James sells some nice ones..SO I will Promote them.
You don’t have to buy them.
As Far as the ring worms..Well I believe it was 98 or 99 the biggest Walleye Tourney in the country at the time Fished out of Lacrosse and was won on the Ringworms.
James has taken them with the company refined them and made them better with colors that work here. This product works and works well.. I will Promote them.
You don’t have to buy them.
K-Grubs the same thing…except they catch BIG FISH..
I will promote them.
You don’t have to buy them.
That’s all I have to say on that subject.

James Holst’s drive and commitment to help educate future generations with his lectures and this free web site..In my eyes is a GREAT thing..
I will use this site and purchase his products…They work and it is my way of giving something back to a man whom has nothing but good intentions for this fishery.

That’s all I’m going to say on that Subject.

About the pictures….GEEEZZZ
Can’t believe it made such a stir…What nobody was looking at the Smiles..
Actually I hate taking pictures..I have over a thousand of the damn things on my hard drive.
I have to say about the only pictures I like lately are Rivereyes..he has a good eye for catching things I don’t.
Well that’s all I have to say on that Topic.

I have to finish by wishing everyone

Blackbeard post #75872 has some valid points. The information exchange and fishing equipment now days is like none previously. We all need to do our part to protect the resource, that is basically his point of discussion. Iowa pools are seeing what continued harvesting (pressure) along with some poor spawn years can do to the fishery, it goes from very good to very poor in a short amount of time.

NORB: I have been fishing RW since 1997, I don’t have many years to fall back on for experience. What have you seen over your 30 years at RW. Is the pressure much greater? In my eyes it goes up each year. How about the over size of the saugers – is the average size down today compared to 20 years ago? RW is know for a great sauger fishery but I’m surprised the average size is not greater compared to some other great sauger fisheries. I know we have good numbers saugers/walleye to keep fisherman happy however are we loosing the potential for our overall average size fish to be bigger. Look at pool 2, average size goes up big time when you fish there.

tharms I think our SAUGER are doing well. I think 4.5 lbs is a big sauger and they are out there in numbers.

One of the biggest factors I think on Pool 4 has been four mild winters in a row..once the snow flies the numbers up there will be limited to just us few..

You know you guys are making me read way more than I should have to But this post has been kept very clean and thats the best thing that has come out of this post.

One’s views are exactly that,,,,”One’s Views” ,,,none of us can say weather anyone’s view is right nore wrong…We all have views, some of us share ours and some of us keep them to ourselves.

No one person has the right to make someone change anothers mind. Feel free to express your opinion, Yes !!!

But Making someone change their mind , because other people are doing it that way… naaaaa not gonna happen that way here…

If we all did things the same way what a boring world we would live in..We all live together, none of us are the same (thank god for that ) yet we all get along…very well here too i might add…

I thank everyone for their views on this subject, I see no need to delete this post as long as it stay clean..

thanks again , now go play on another post

Quote:

---

in response to Gianni, I don’t have a problem with a photo of you and your friends with 50 crappies on ice, but if you could elaborate to the masses on the where,what,when and how, and maybe offer a video about it, I think you might have a problem with it.

---

Lake Meyer Park,
Ft Atkinson IA
Ice jig, yellow with red eyes; silver back & waxie/minnow
Sorry, no video
I don’t like secrets.

I don’t need to feel guilty about anything. For a while I felt bad about keeping so many crappies out of a 40 acre lake. Fortunately, a hideous winterkill on this tiny lake killed about 90% of the remaining crappies so I felt much better that at least someone got benefit from them while they were there.

Fishing pressure is only one factor in maintaining the health of the fishery. Unfortunately, it’s one of the few over which we have control. The truth is that “mother nature” gives us what we get & we’re forced to live with it. She is a cruel b***ch and eco-religionists (not you, but they’re out there, and they’re also telling me not to eat fish) are well-advised to periodically put down their frappachinos and exit the ski resort into a midwest winter as a reminder of that.

Vandy – Thanks for your input. I was inquiring about Norb’s opinion on what he has seen from his 30 years of fishing the pool. Personally I don’t have any info beyond the last 7 years. Maybe I’m missed in-formed. I have spoken with some old time river rats that talk about the days of the common sauger being 19-23″ for everyone that fished not just the select few.

Tim Harms

Rivereyes, No, Blackbeard isn’t an alias, just a guy who has been lurking around this site since day one and hasn’t had much to say but felt strongly enough about this topic to test the waters. Kid, I didn’t take the “whim’s perception” thing too seriously it’s just that I have no data no surveys or statistics just what I personally observe, very unscientific. I am a believer of history. Especially American history, this is not on the same scale as other events in our past, but I hate the idea of history repeating itself. Not learning from our past mistakes happens time and again. I don’t want any of us to ever be in the position of sitting around some day saying, “what if?” or “we should of did this or that.” Regarding this certain topic I don’t know any good solutions, though I can suggest that when we do go fishing and decide to keep some, that we base it not just on regulations imposed, but on what I need, not what my brother-in-law’s sisters uncle wants or my neighbor down the street. Not a limit, if only to justify the cost of my guide or motel or gas. If it’s 6, then take 6, If you’re the only one at your house that eats fish take one for tonight,and none for the freezer, cuz the freezer just does’nt do it justice, and now you also have a great reason why you need to get back out and fish. The Native Americans didn’t need regulations to guide them on how much buffalo they could take. They only took what they needed. They understood the balance, I think we can to. Hey Gianni, Thanks for the tip, I’ll try that next time.

They don’t call me Iowa Dept of Conversation for nothing river eyes. I also attended a couple of classes John Pitlo put on and I wasn’t all that impressed. Back in 88 there were plenty of us fishing walleyes, why heck one day five of us in two boats caught over 750 walleyes & sauger. I told pitlo at one of his seminars that the walleye fishing is going to take a huge dive unless stricter limits were imposed. His reply was that he does’nt see any problem with the way the fishing is going. I sure wish at that time he could see past the end of his nose. Of course as everyone knows the walleye fishing took a hugh dip a yr & a half later. I can also quote him at that time as saying that he was’nt concerned about the panfish because with in ten yrs with the silt problem there is’nt going to be any pan fish, He did’nt offer a solution to the siltation problem.
The only reason he changed his way of thinking was because a lot of us who spend time on the water really drilled it to him!!!
River Eyes, I have been known to keep a few fish to eat at times,but most of the time they get released. To each his own, the law of supply & demand will probably take precidence. John

The pressure 30 years ago wasn’t near what it is now, at least not during the winter months. There were still a lot of people in the spring, but nothing close to what it is now. And the fishing? Well, if anything its gotten even better or maybe I’m doing a better job of catching them. How can this river keep putting out the number of fish it has for all these years? I don’t know, but we all need to do whatever we can to keep it going. I love to fish the lakes, but there is still no better thrill than coming over to the river at Red Wing.