Gianni; i am also from CR and for a few years had qualified to carry concealed. It is perhaps interesting that the sheriff changed and the law didn’t. I was then refused when I went to renew. Nothing changed on my end of the situation. When did we give county sheriffs the power to interpret the law as they see fit? The inequity in this alone leaves us wondering what other inappropriate personal interpretations of law have been done by this elected official!
Since Jon J. has brought up the esteemed John Lott as a credible source for gun statistics, you all should read this story in today’s City Pages about this fraud: http://www.citypages.com/databank/24/1159/article11064.asp
This guy has been discredited by numerous experts, his research was paid for by an arm of Winchester (now there’s an unbiased source!), and he has stooped so low as to create a fictitious internet name to defend his bogus research. I doubt the story will have much of an impact on the “don’t bother me with the facts, my mind is made up” crowd. But if you’re hitching your wagon to John Lott’s horse, be prepared to defend the horse manure he calls research.
I have never committed a crime, but the world is full of people who do – most of them carry something (gun, knife, anthrax, bomb, whatever)to give them an advantage over their victims. I don’t hunt anymore but I have always owned guns. I may or may not carry if it were legal but that should be my choice – not the choice of the “million moms” or Michael Moore/Rosie O’Donnell/Susan Sarandon (/// forever here!). Anti-gun (any form) is a liberal position, therefore it is simply a wrong position. Those who want to prevent me from protecting myself and mine won’t and can’t step up to do it for me. As with every other issue, I (as a good conservative) am happy and proud to do whatever it takes to handle that for myself.
I will apply. I’ve always packed a pistol deep in the bag when remote camping and I always felt a little worried about it because it was illegal. However having the means to protect my family and myself was more important.
There have been some very intelligent,well researched,well spoken contributions to this thread,Gianni,the kid2…to name a couple.Comparing cars and boats to guns is none of the above.I have held a young man at gunpoint,at my residence,until the sheriff arrived.Where we live was very rural then,it was dark,I knew this young man was not alone and I was scared,but I knew…even as scared as I was,that I would pull the trigger that night if I had to…I knew this with an incredible clarity in my mind.Fortunatly,the sheriff arrived and the situation ended there.As it turned out,this young man was almost a neighbor as,he lived just a couple of miles away.In retrospect,obviously I’m glad I didn’t have to shoot someone.Not so much for this young mans lifes sake,although that is certainly true,but for the young mans parents and family.That would have been hard to live with and that is my greatest concern with this bill.Someone,somewhere…a young man struggling with right and wrong in his life,an innocent passerby,road rage,the list goes on and on but,someone is going to get killed that doesn’t deserved to be.All the backround checks in the world and training and everything else offered up in defense of this bill,will not weed out all the misfits from carrying a handgun.These are truths that we will live with when this bill passes and I believe it will pass.Even with these reservations I have regarding conceal and carry,I support it’s passage,regrettably so but,I think it is a necessary evil in this day and age,a very sad commentary on our society.Mike
“This guy has been discredited by numerous experts, his research was paid for by an arm of Winchester (now there’s an unbiased source!), and he has stooped so low as to create a fictitious internet name to defend his bogus research”
HMMM… What kind of parents would name their kid Catfish
The pros and cons abound and they exist on both sides of the legislative possibilities. Neither can be, or will be perfect. People who don’t deserve to die are still dying.
About John Lott………….I don’t know the guy. I don’t have to know the guy. I know that in many areas of interest, biased opinions and stats flourish through the reports. Some people make those mistakes and others refrain. Just like global warming stats have been shown to be misaligned with almanac records and that the world is actually getting colder. They only show the stats that support the cause. Whether PITA or NRA, they’re not going to print the stats that argue their cause. Again, too much faith in media form.
Jon J. is an excellent researcher and isn’t responsible for the undoings of this guys argument. I know that Jon’s opinion comes from more than just one man or just one source.
Realize, we make mistakes. Our future will make mistakes. Our leaders make mistakes. Accountability is certainly in order, but just as some claims weren’t true, how many were? You can’t base facts on the actions of a man. The facts will be the facts and they show up in more than one place. Lott may not have told 100% truth, but that doesn’t mean he told 100% lies.
Like I said, I don’t know anything about this guy so this isn’t in his defense or about my perception of him, but rather a suggestion to examine the bigger picture, as a whole, both sides fairly and without prejudice or favor.
I’ve stated before that I choose NOT to carry a gun. It’d be easy to assume that I would then oppose this legislation. But the more I look into it, even though it doesn’t appeal to me personally, I see a stronger argument in favor of the passing of this legislation.
Catfish, thanks for your contribution. Your input is needed and appreciated. I do however, encourage the pursuit of objective researching. Emotions need to be removed for even the most conclusive of arguments to be presented effectively. BUT, in all things, stay true to yourself. If you’re not happy with yourself, who will be?
The world is getting colder???? Is that we have hardly had any snow the last two winters??? I am just wondering because my biology classes we just discussed that and i must have been sleeping and dreaming when he said global warming is real and that has effected the seasons, just wondering you have a valuable source behind that so i can challenge my professor. He likes to be challenged, but i wonder if your info there is reliable?
Jeff, do you believe everything your professors tell you? You want to challenge your professor, do some research yourself.
Maybe read the Constitution of the United State of America.
This bill is about the right to self defense. This bill will simply provide unifromity in the exercising of my right (Granted by nature and tradition) to self defense.
Again link to Bill for those of you who don’t yet get it.
http://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us:8181/SEARCH/BASIS/hstat/public/www/SDF?FILE_SEARCH=hf261
His point was that any study can be commissioned to generate data supporting a predetermined outcome. On a side note: Global warming theory is based on higher peak-to-peak temperature variation (i.e. colder winters have been put forth as a side-effect of the overall warming trend).
As to the Lott data, the ‘fabricated’ portion of his data was the percentage of incidents during which merely showing a gun was sufficient to deter a crime without actually firing a shot. The key fact – 2.5 million defensive gun uses annually – was taken from the FBI Uniform Crime Statistics.
You can feel free to call their work “horse manure” and claim that they are biased by gun industry tax dollars.
None of this, of course, is material to the point being discussed. If statistics existed that showed an instant increase of 10,000% in murder rates with the passage of uniform standards for issuance of CCW permits I would still support it. Unequal application of the law is injustice on it’s face in violation of the very principles upon which this country was founded.
Jeff,
I tangent enough so I won’t get into this on the thread but, I’ll be happy to explain in a pm.
the old addage is true.. figures dont lie… but liars figure….. you can make the data dance to whatever tune you like if your creative enough….. Ive seen it dance many times….
look people don’t get all offensive i was just saw that and we just talked about it so i figured i could get it from him. since he still prolly knew where he got it
I am all for CC!
I’m not saying I’d run out and get a permit or if I had one would carry but it sure would be nice to even out the odds against the criminals.
I thnk it’s a good idea to be armed (at least at home anyway) so next time your at Fleet buying lures pick up a box of shells before there is a run on them and there all sold out 
I did notice ammo wasn’t on the “Duct tape list” to be prepared for an attack…why was that? Anyway I tend to think if your going to take the time to go about getting a permit to carry your a law abiding citizen and will use it in a lawful manner…right? My thoughts…keep grinning!
Ferny.
Here’s another excellent resource on this topic: http://www.gunguys.com/
A good resource for one side of the issue. It supports their cause. Where’s the reports that show how many lives were saved vs. lives lost. It too is a biased resource. Believe as you will, but the RESULTS speak louder than either sides argument. There are good and bad results……………but which is there more of? That is really the ONLY question that counts. Overall good, swallow your preference and support your nations legislation. Overall bad, swallow your preference and support your nation’s legislation. Show me the site that actually weighs both sides through police records. Anything outside of official, judicial documentation is more subject to lean more toward or away from the truth.
Death bothers me but I’m not lobbying to take away rights and principles………….or even priviledges. Education of RESPONSIBILITY and ACCOUNTABILITY will do more than any legislation, for or against C&C.
“and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one.”
Again, not about statistics. This is about Rights. The carrying of hanguns by law abiding citizens will in no way, whatsoever, infringe upon the rights of others.
Thanks for the link, Catfish John – I had been hunting for a link that showed the innefectiveness of police when it comes to personal protection & safety (or wasn’t that the point of the “America’s Shooting Gallery” part of the page)?
The link that I was hunting for I finally found. You will need RealPlayer to listen, but it was certainly the one that convinced me: 911 call
Not like I needed convincing, the USSC has ruled numerous times that police are not responsible for your safety and exist to take action after the fact.
Here’s some more information on the esteemed John Lott–or is it Mary Rosh? Whatever: http://www.buzzflash.com/analysis/03/02/25_Lott.html
Man, I’d hoped this would die so we could get back to fishing. Oh well:
In reply to:
Do the police owe a duty to protect you from criminal attack? In most of the United States, the answer is “no.” In fact, in most cases the police do not even have to respond to your emergency 911 call. — Richard W. Stevens
Nowhere in our nation do the police have the duty or the capability to protect most of Americans. Dial 911 and Die documents the case law and statutes that drive home that we are responsible for protecting ourselves and our loved ones. — Edgar A. Suter, MD National Chair, Doctors for Integrity in Policy Research, Inc.
Do the police have the obligation to arrest someone who repeatedly violates a domestic violence protective order? No. Can the police ignore an emergency call for assistance in order to do paperwork? Yes. Do the police have the obligation to respond to a 911 call for help? No. What if they promise that “help is on the way”? Do they then have an obligation to respond? Still no. If the police witness a crime in progress, must they intervene to protect the innocent? No again. — Sarah Thompson, M.D.
Nevertheless, this book speaks to the irrefutable truth: police do very little to prevent violent crime. We investigate crime after the fact. — Former Sheriff of Graham Co, AZ
Ever play the lottery? While I refuse to pay my ‘poor tax’ I can still walk out of the house every Thursday and Sunday thinking, “Some lucky monkeybutt woke up $10M richer this morning.”
Now think about this: The odds that you will become a victim of a violent crime are astronomically higher than the odds of winning the lottery. The winners of that ‘lottery’ are not limited to Wednesday and Saturday, either. Try every time you walk through a doorway, to think, “Someone was just murdered.” The next time you head for work, watch your odometer and with every 10th of a mile, think, “A woman was just raped.”
Did you even listen to that call? If it was my wife screaming into the phone while being bludgeoned, I would want her to have the biggest, baddest, full-auto, high-capacity, heat-shielded, pistol-gripped, folding-stocked, annoy-the-most-liberals-possible weapon available, regardless of what others may think of my “need” for such a piece.
Catfish,
What do you not understand about the right to self defense. I could provide you with statistics supporting this this but all you have to do is REALIZE that it’s not about J. Lott. Read the following excerpt from the latest text of the bill. “A bill for an act relating to public safety; enacting the Minnesota Citizens’ Personal Protection Act of 2003; recognizing the inherent right of law-abiding citizens to self-protection through the lawful use of self-defense; providing a system under which responsible, competent adults can exercise their right to self-protection by authorizing them to obtain a permit to carry a pistol; providing criminal penalties; appropriating money…”.
Answer this question of yourself. Am I against the right of citizens to self protection?
For the women: “Nobody ever raped a .38”
Hey Everyone. Thanks to all who voted or posted a message. I agree with Gianni when he says “Man, I’d hoped this would die so we could get back to fishing. Oh well:”
Anyway, I did not start the post to try and change anyone’s mind. I was genuinely thrilled at the prospect that this legislation has a fighting change to become law this year. I hope the Voters in Minnesota get this done.
The poll in the post has remained pretty consistent with about 85% for, and 15% against. I really thought it would have been more in the 50/50 range. I was truly surprised by the support.
Let’s just leave this sleeping dog lie. I think everything that needs to be said has been covered!
Thanks,
Jon J.
Gianni,
Almost too cold to fish here the past few days. I hoped this would go to page 2 also, as I did just realize that harping on Catfish isn’t really doing a whole lot of good. I hope he’s never the victim of a crime. The best thing we can do to promote/protect the second amendment and associated legislation is write/call/email, in that order, the politicians who represent us.
I find it rather humorous to hear you guys whine about how you wish this would just go away so you could get back to fishing. Yet you return to post time and time again on this topic. What’s up with that? Like a stupid cur who keeps asking “Why doesn’t this porcupine leave me alone as he rams his nose into its quills one more time.”
As I’ve said before, some of the yahoos who want to carry concealed guns around so they can threaten people’s lives who dare take a urine in front of them scare me more than the criminals. For some of you, I’m sure the provocation to pull your gun would have to be a lot less (gee, how did all those road signs get shot up–from all the responsible concealed gun carriers out there?). This is precisely why most cops don’t want this law passed. And it’s precisely why not every yahoo who wants to carry a concealed gun is allowed to. There’s just too many nut cases who want to play Deputy Dawg and save the world out there–or just go shooting things up for the hell of it.
I didn’t expect to change anyone’s mind here. But for christ’s sake, if you’re tired of this discussion, why do you keep participating in it? Can’t you find the scroll button on your keyboard? Do you respond to every piece of spam you get in your email box too? Get over it–go fish! But remember to pack your gun in your tackle box. You never know when you might encounter a killer pike–or some drunks taking a whiz…
Non-criminals scare you (catfish) more than criminals…. H-m-m-m. I guess that says a lot. I don’t mind this topic – enlighten me some more, catfish! What rights/privledges would you like to take from me after you and the (other) million moms get the whole evil-gun situation straightened out?
Here is a link to a commercial running in WI. We need a MN version.
http://www.flashbunny.org/betteroffdead-wicc.html
“What rights/privledges would you like to take from me after you and the (other) million moms get the whole evil-gun situation straightened out?”
What “rights” and “priviledges” (sic) are you talking about? The right to carry whatever weapon you deem necessary to protect you and your precious loved ones, under whatever circumstances you deem necessary (like peeing outdoors)?
And exactly what part of a “well-regulated militia” don’t you understand? Why do you think its authors put that in there? Have you ever even read your Second Amendment in its 27-word entirety, or do you just take Charlton “Mixed Ethnicity is America’s Problem” Heston’s word for it?
Catfish, What part of “The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.” do you not understand! We have the right to self protection. This bill will acknowledge that right.
The second amendment has been ruled that it applies to individual Citizens not only the Militia
Try this! The sworn oath of the military :
”I,” ” , do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic…
Yes we do have domestic enemies.
Have you ever been cornered and out numbered? With your daughter present? He started with peeing, is that where this stops? Why would you corner someone just to take a whiz.
100s of thousands of lives have perished to provide these rights of protection and defense against oppression. Catfish, buddy…………did anyone in your family die in a war to protect these rights for you? The road signs are irresponsible acts, no one challenges that. But who says shooting a road sign is more threatening than peeing in front of a young child? Shooting signs is not shooting people. Irresponsible? Undeniable. But certainly not life threatening. Had it been a person instead of a road sign, I still believe the gun would have never been fired. I know some of those sign shooting idiots. They don’t do it every day and they never threaten or point guns, loaded or unloaded at anyone……………ever. Carrying a gun is not a power trip for the very large majority of us. It’s actually frightening to do so. The responsibility is HUGE. But, it is part of the magic that makes this “butterfly fly”. An armed society does work and remember, the “wild west” wasn’t anything like the movies. The same mind sets and laws they had then exist today and if we’re not the wild west today, then get the picture out of the head! Only an unarmed society is vulnerable. Results is results is results. Get off the modern philosophy and look at your history. It’s all there in printed, documented, historical recordings.
Don’t take this the wrong way but I have a moment of personal experience to share:
I remember trying to “educate” my father once and he asked the question, “How do you fit so much dumb in one mouth?” I couldn’t answer. To which he replied, “You can’t keep it all in can you. That’s why you insist on filling my ears with it.”
Vicious as that sounds, my dad is a gentle guy. I just pushed him that hard, that day. What he was really saying is that no matter my beliefs or research, I still hadn’t tapped into his years of unequalled, accumulated wisdom. I’m still waiting to hear you clearly state an open minded look at the other side of your argument. You haven’t addressed the good points (in the results) of both views, and the bad points (in the results) of both views. All changes FIRST start from within. Attacking will yield only more resistance and yes, more posts. We don’t come here for political debates and that is the point being made. No one’s running from the issue. We are, however, tiring of the redundancy.
You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
