Legislation to pass the “Must Issue, Concealed Carry” handgun bill has just passted the Minnesota House sub committee. There is currently enough votes in both the Minnesota House and Senate to pass. Governor Pawlenty has said he will sign the bill if it makes it to his desk.
I have been fighting for this legislation for over 10 years and am a life member of the NRA. I am curious as to how fellow FTR members would vote on this bill.
If i am thinking what this means, and it means people are allowed to carry concealed handguns correct? well, while everyone has concealed carry firearms on them, watch out, minneapolis now will become higher in crime then New orleans. Not a smart choice. Yeah you might have a gun on you, but who else is got a gun? i hope i understood this correctly. and if it does pass i am glad i do not live in that state.
The law would allow law abiding citizens to apply for a permit to carry a concealed handgun. If there is no reason to deny the permit, the state “Must Issue” one.
J.
I am on the fence with this issue, I have heard that Texas has a lower crime rate because they can carry a concealed handgun, is this correct?
You could spend the next several days getting up to speed on this issue at:
Here is an example of what you will find…..
SELF-DEFENSE & RIGHT-TO-CARRY
Survey research during the early 1990s by criminologist Gary Kleck found as many as 2.5 million protective uses of firearms each year in the U.S. “(T)he best available evidence indicates that guns were used about three to five times as often for defensive purposes as for criminal purposes,” Kleck writes. Analyzing National Crime Victimization Survey data, he found “robbery and assault victims who used a gun to resist were less likely to be attacked or to suffer an injury than those who used any other methods of self-protection or those who did not resist at all.” (Targeting Guns, Aldine de Gruyter, 1997)
Most protective firearm uses do not involve discharge of a firearm. In only 1% of protective uses are criminals wounded and in only 0.1% are criminals killed.
A Dept. of Justice survey found that 40% of felons chose not to commit at least some crimes for fear their victims were armed, and 34% admitted having been scared off or shot at by armed victims. (James D. Wright and Peter H. Rossi, Armed and Considered Dangerous, Aldine de Gruyter, 1986)
Thirty-two states now have Right-to-Carry (RTC) laws providing for law-abiding citizens to carry firearms for protection against criminals. Twenty-two states have adopted RTC laws in the last 15 years. Half of Americans, including 60% of handgun owners, live in RTC states.
Professor John R. Lott, Jr., and David B. Mustard, in the most comprehensive study to date of RTC laws’ effectiveness concluded, “When state concealed-handgun laws went into effect in a county, murders fell about 8 percent, rapes fell by 5 percent, and aggravated assaults fell by 7 percent. . . . Will allowing law-abiding citizens to carry concealed handguns save lives? The answer is yes, it will.” (Lott, More Guns, Less Crime, Univ. of Chicago Press, 1998)
RTC states have lower violent crime rates on average: 24% lower total violent crime, 22% lower murder, 37% lower robbery, and 20% lower aggravated assault. The five states with the lowest violent crime rates are RTC states. (FBI) People who carry legally are by far more law-abiding than the rest of the public. In Florida, for example, only a fraction of 1% of carry licenses have been revoked because of gun-related crimes committed by license holders. (Florida Dept. of State)
an armed society is a polite society
Given the opportunity to carry, upon occasion, I am sure that I would carry. If having that right means that several other hot headed individuals that I know or have met could be carrying a load gun, well, I guess I would rather not. I think that it is not needed. I believe that I should have the right to own firearms. I don’t believe just any “law abider” should be able to carry one concealed like. I am not a member of the NRA because I do not want to support this type of legislation.
64% of the states so far. That’s a good start. I would support this kind of legislation in my state. I believe the facts support it as a deterent to crime. The facts are there that show how ineffective prison sentences and rehabilitation in our prison systems are in reducing crime. This is overdue. It’s time we stopped worrying about violating the rights of those who would do us harm or are unwilling to abide by the laws of our country. The person applying for the permit still is required to meet certain qualifications to be issued the permit. Training is involved and you need to demonstrate proficiency and knowledge of the law.
you gotta do what you gotta do. I prefer a sharp stick !! 
Poop!! I’m getting closer…… 
yeah.. geez reefrunner…. for sure if everyone is carrying guns… someone is going to try and “save” you with from that animal thats “mauling” your head… hopefully it wont be a repeat of the “William Tell” incident……. 
JonJ: Sounds like you and I have followed this closely enough to know the arguments on both sides. I’m surprised that so many sportsmen have not kept up with this issue, especially with Wellstone and Harkin, who favor draconian gun control laws, “representing us.”
How would the people on this board respond if fishing regs were anything like handgun regs?
How about that, guys? Should I get to sit in a padded chair and determine who I think is best suited for the priveledge of fishing? How about you pay me a non-refundable $50 just for me to even consider letting you obtain a fishing license?
That is the system currently in place in both Iowa and Minnesota when it comes to excersizing your right to defend both yourself and your family.
I have not posted in a while. In fact, I have not visited the site in a while. Interesting topic on the river forum. Nevertheless, my 2 cents….
I have 4 friends that are muni cops/county sherrifs in MN. Those 4 individuals should have never been allowed to carry guns – even with the badge! They always were and currently are crazy animals. I’m glad they never had access to guns as teenagers or young adults. They are great friends, …but they are crazy. And to think….. they even get to carry their guns home after work. (Only one of them has had to actually shoot someone. ….NOT good!) Law enforcement officers, unfortunitely, have been trained to assume everyone is armed already. What will change?
The only diff. is that law abiding citizens may actually have a legal gun in posetion. Criminals probably have one either way.
There are pro’s and con’s to the argument. I’m leaning towards “carry.” Again,… only my 2-cents.
Dekaja is correct in his quote: an armed society is a polite society.
Arguments that “Road Rage” will have bullets flying everywhere are not true. In fact, road rage will likely be a thing of the past. (Read quote above again if confused) Are you going to flip someone off if you think they are armed?
The statistics do not lie and have remained consistent for many, many years now. When a state allows it’s citizens to arm themselves, crime rates drop across the board and remain consistently lower than states that do not allow concealed carry. When criminals are the only people with a gun, law abiding citizens are the people getting shot!
There are many requirements to satisfy to obtain the permit. Background checks, gun safety and shooting courses. Not just every Joe Blow gets one. But if you have a clean record, demonstrate the ability to safely handle and shoot your handgun. The state will be required to issue the permit. The way things are now, only people that require one for their occupation get a permit. That stinks.
At last check, the poll showed over 80% of the FTR voters agree!
We are on track to finally win this one. When we do, (And I mean when, not if) I will be the first in line to get my permit.
Jon J.
I don’t think it’s a bad thing for some people to conceal guns but I’m not so sure I’d want them shooting at an animal that’s mauling me! I’d take my chances with the animal,besides I have too many enimies! Right Tuck?Look at how people use Rifles when deer hunting,They just shoot and don’t think about what’s behind the target. I will bet that there will be alot of accidental shootings! But I would favor this legislation.
going hunting with a pistol, or 7mm is one thing, putting concealed weapons out on the street, next time instead of reading about the big fight that happened in the bar, you are going to read about how many were injured and how many are dead. You need to think about this, yeah you might be armed, and you know you won’t ever do anything stupid, but what is that to say about someone else? you can’t control them, how has your life gone so far? so bad that you need a gun to protect yourself?????? you want to protect yourself? lift some weights, gets some muscle, take martial arts, anything but put more guns on the street for people to go around with.
http://www.emory.edu/EMORY_REPORT/erarchive/1998/February/erfebruary.2/2_2_98GunLaws.html I’d rather fight a man with a fist, then go out and get shot!!!!!!
Your argument to lift weights or take martial arts or whatever is kind of sad. I carry a spare tire in my truck, I carry long term disability insurance and I carry a first aid kit in my boat. I hope I never have to use any of the items but they are there if the need arises. The same is true of carrying a handgun. The criminal element is already armed to the teeth, it is the law abiding guy that is unprotected. As sportsman we are a responsible group and 14 ounces of steel in my pocket isn’t going to turn me into a raving madman. The fact that isn’t brought out in the conceal carry debate is that the presence of a gun can deter instead of escalate violence. When I lived in S. Dak. I pulled a gun twice on individuals. Both times I was out fishing and miles from the nearest town or cop. On neither occasion was there a shot fired. One time my 6 y.o. daughter and I were fishing and a car with 2 rather drunk cowboys(no offense to cowboys) blocked my truck in the lot and preceeded to try to rile me up. I was kind of blowing them off till they started to urinate right in front of her—I knew it was time to stop the B.S. so I pulled my .357 from my coat pocket. I layed it on the roof of the truck as I stared at them, they called me a few names as they drove off. Now maybe kung-fu or chop-suey would have done the trick but I was looking to defend me and mine as effectively as possible. This isn’t about macho crap, this is just common sense. Cops are for victims, I don’t like that label. If I get a permit and my 9mm never breaks leather I’ll die a happy man.
Well put Redneck.
What Jeff fails to clearly understand is the real world is not like the world shown on TV.
J.
Guys,
I refrained from even reading this for awhile because, again, this is one of those sensitive issues that can get very heated. So far, I have to say I’m absolutely impressed by everyone’s calm demeanor in expressing their opinions. Way to go guys!
Anyway, I said something some time ago about believing in predetermined destiny and because of that I’ve never felt the need to carry a gun. I own them, I’m in favor of having the right to own them, but I’ve never carried one for anything other than hunting game.
I still have to side with the argument to allow concealed weapons. The shootings are happening without this legislation and I don’t see it’s advent increasing crime. The states that have gone on before and pioneered this are showing improved living conditions. On one hand, we’ve had a soft economy, which ALWAYS reduces crime, with or without guns.
The right to bear arms has been one of the greatest rights in securing our nation’s freedom. Why would we want to stray from one of the things that made this country great? To me, the right to carry arms is just a smaller piece of a greater question of weapons control. The greater question comes from former Ohio state senator Bob McEwan who announced in a talk given in Toledo, OH on 9/26/02, that the United States, is not allowed to carry and use Patriot missiles for national protection. We invented the stinkin’ things and our liberalists passed legislation that forbode us from using them! When the chance to reverse this law came to Clinton’s desk, he vetoed it! No matter your political position, you have to know that Bill had no foreign policy! So now, re-ask the question of why weapons of mass destruction are such a concern to preserving our freedom? Why should anyone fear us when we won’t even protect ourselves to our highest capabilities? What happens when the citizens are no longer able to bear arms? Militia protections only? We’ll be even MORE vulnerable to attacks from the truly insane, native or foreign.
See, if I have a gun and my adversary only has a stick, who wins? I’ll bully them to no end. But, give them a gun too and I might decide it’s just not worth the risk and leave them alone, or maybe even learn to get along with them…………….both of our lives depend on that unity!
I hope MN passes it and every other undecided state in the nation follows. The republic needs restoration and this is a step in the right direction. Who dares to walk among us when we all could be carrying guns? Just the possibility says I should want to be a pleasant individual! Even the crazies don’t want to die!
Amen to that Kid!
J.
Post deleted by jeffsedlmayr
“next time instead of reading about the big fight that happened in the bar, you are going to read about how many were injured and how many are dead.”
That is TV land, not the real world. You are 19, I am 40. Been there seen that!
J.
OK, I want to apologize to Jeff. I do not mean to come across as picking on anyone for his or her views.
Let me explain the TV comment.
In the real world, unlike TV, when a person is looking down the barrel of a 357 magnum, they begin to see things very clearly. The thought of “Well maybe I’ll just karate kick that baby right out of his hand” will never cross that persons mind. Believe me I have seen this clarity of thought.
A 357 magnum has a distinct way of clearing one’s mind without firing a shot.
Again, this is from personal experience, not watching TV.
Jon J.
In reply to:
John Lott,
Senior Research Scholar
School of Law – Yale University
Rabid tales predicting that the streets would be running with blood have been tried and denied in thirty-seven states now. The CCW debate has been a pet project of mine for almost seven years now, and I have never seen anyone sustain an argument against it without resorting to either intellectual dishonesty or outright hypocracy.
We live in a society where rapists and violent criminals are released from prison in three-to-five so that we can make room for college kids who got caught smoking pot. I could never with a straight face tell my mother, my wife, my sister, or my daughter, “Learn Karate and lift some weights.” My advice to them will be simple: Get a gun, if you need it, use it.
Go to a group session for rape victims and let them know what their mistake was. Let them know that if they had only spent more time at the gym, or in karate class, they could have avoided an unimaginable, degrading, and humiliating tragedy at the hands of a violent criminal. A woman who’s endured years of counseling is not morally superior to a woman with a smoking gun in her hand and a dead rapist at her feet.
I’d better cut this off, as the more I type, the more annoyed I get.
[ /endrant ]
This is a great topic.
My thought is that crime doen’t happen infront of the cops, usually.
So you are out there about to be harmed and you need sel defense. It is not the cops that are going to save your but. Unless you have a horseshoe hidden somewhere.
I am all for the CC permits but think that everyone who recieves on needs to be properly trained yearly and must pass qualifications.
Link to bill summary
http://www.house.leg.state.mn.us/perl/billsum.pl?fname=HF0261&session=83&session_number=0&year=2003
Interesting that those opposed to the MN bill are from Wisconsin.
Before you make comments please educate yourselves on the issue.
That is an interesting sidenote, isn’t it? 
Anyway, it does help to gather info on the topic but I also think it’s good to voice impressions and interpretations. Not everyone has the care to do their own research and when brought through emotional impulse, it gives us a chance to pass on what we do know. If we leave everything to everyone’s own accord to see that they become informed on things, we’d be shooting ourselves in the foot for sure. I certainly don’t have the ability to know where to look to learn everything and it’s been through the input of many, many patrons of this site that my knowledge base has been expanded. I’m thankful for everyone here that has been willing to share their 2 cents on the variety of topics that come to this forum. You’re making a bigger impact than you may realize!
Thanks for putting that link up Bogsucker! Things like that definitely help in the education sharing! 
Pup
Jon, There is similar leg. going on in Wi.Last year we had the votes to pass but got foiled by some political hi-jinks.It has been shown time and time again that cocealed carry laws lower crime rates. I believe that there are only 11 states that don’t have provision for concealed carry. Aparently those of us in Mn. and Wi. are less responsible or dumber than the rest of the country.The problem is that people who should be for concealed carry have emotional reactions [fueled by the media] rather than finding out the facts.Well’ I guess that’s enough. Good luck. An Armed Society Is A Polite Society!
why can’t we all just get along…………
what a sick world we are becoming……
makes me want to fish even more….. if that’s possible……..
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