Gary Roach’s opinion re. guides and keeping fish

In reading the Outdoor News, that was received yesterday, I am quite perplexed by Mr. Roach’s opinion regarding guides promoting the over harvesting of fish versus catch-and-release. Obviously this man has never had the opportunity to spend a day on the water with Mr. James Holst(or many other FTR guides, I’m quite sure.) It’s unfortunate when such prominent fishing icons have such skewed opinion(s) that can be so far reaching and damaging. I’d like to have seen that this was humor but from re-reading this over and over, I’m quite confident that his meaning is clear.

Being a fishing guide would be a dream come true for most of us avid fishermen but once you’ve spent time with one, you realize what a demanding and difficult job it must be.

Perhaps Mr. Roach should see if he can find time to fish with a “professional” guide like Mr. Holst, then perhaps he can write an article that might provide a more realistic perspective.

Kurt Turner

Is that article online? Id like to read it so I can understand your point a little more and give Gary Roach a fair shake. I have a fair amount of respect for Mr. Roach and would like to read this first hand. Otherwise I suppose I could pick it up on the news stands.

This article can be found on page 13 of the August 30, 2002 published edition.

Kurt

If you can ascertain a different perspective of his comments regarding guides over harvesting, please share because I have always held Mr. Roach in high esteem.

Steve this article is not available on line, send me your address in a pm and I will send you the article.

I think what Roach is trying to say (although I have not read the article) is that it is hard to be preachy about catch and release when you are showing stringer shots of limits of fish necessary to promote the guide business.

“Perhaps Mr. Roach should see if he can find time to fish with a “professional” guide like Mr. Holst”

I had thought I had heard everything!!!!! Gary Roach learning from James Holst on how to be a “professional” guide. Kurt what planet did this come from? It is not from this one we call earth (or reality).

Hey Ezhook
everything in that article I would have to agree with, that kind of stuff happens all the time with guides no matter where you are. I am not saying all guides will do this but it does happen alot. And RD23 James holst is one of the best at what he does theres no doubt about that he is a hell of a guy and one hell of a fisherman and Myself I could never see James doing what gary is talking about he supports catch and release just as much as the rest of us.
and yes if Gary Roach came down to pool 4 I am sure he would love to go out with james he would learn more in that one day then he would by himself all week.
P.S. ( that is Reality)

To each there own.
It is the responsibility of our elected officials and wildlife representatives to govern our water. If guides want to strip there spots of fish spray WD40 on there hooks, dump the oil from there pickup in the ditch , toss a beer can out the window, Fart in church and the other then they have the right to do that. As for our opinions as to what people do , when , why , how. It is all governed by what we as a collective whole decide. If you do not like it do something about it. Run for office, go back to school, Research things entirely. Don’t just use the board as a sounding podium to rant. Take charge and become part of the solution. As I sit here I realize my bounds and what I am willing to do to get my point of view across.

I guess what I am saying is that I like your mentality I am calling you to action. Get off your rocker!

To clarify, If I witness this I will stop to say something and probably will participate in escalating thins along into a fist fight follow by using my cell to call for help. If I am the victor rest assure I will make sure you have proper medical care however I am smart enough to get the heck out of there prior to assault charges being filed. –grin-

Actually,
The fishery management and all its limits must be regulated and people staying within those regulations while doing whatever (even making a livelihood) deserve to make personal decision they have to sleep with. The collective whole establishes bag limits that keep the fishery in check and selective harvest IS A GOOD THING. If you didn’t know already. If you wish to debate these facts than I suggest you do your homework prior to posting.
Jc

One final thought on this:

I think the appropriate phrase is Selective Harvest.

Selective Harvest is a concept that goes a step further than catch and release. There is a graphic on the homepage of this site that serves as a remdinder that we/EFN promotes Selective Harvest. It means that common sense is used when putting fish in the box. Typically that means fish less than 20″ down to the minimum size walleyes are fair game to go in the box. Within that range there are anglers that have their own standards mine are 18″ down to the minimum are fair game for the box. The guide customers are made aware of that early on in the trip. A customer pays money for the guiding experience and most want to take home fish. Its part of the business.

Sure selective Harvest is Great putting back the bigger fish is very important, but nothing is better than catch and release!!!!!! but I have heard guys say yeah I keep a limit of fish everytime I go out but I use so called SELECTIVE HARVEST just a reminder people keeping a limit of 15-20in walleyes is no better than keeping a couple big ones. think of the damage that is done by all the people who keep their limit everytime they go out.
so sorry Hougie but I would have to disagree nothing is more important than catch and release

I’ve not read Mr. Roach’s thoughts on building a successful guide business and how that pertains to keeping big limits of fish.

About this idea that guides need to compromise their positions on catch and release to attract a customer base…. Hog wash. I don’t care who holds this opinion, Mr. Roach or anyone else. If this is what someone thinks, their understanding of the business of being a guide is stuck in its infancy.

First, I absolutely maintain anyone’s right to keep as many fish, or any size, at any time, as long as they comply with the existing fishing regs. What other’s do within the scope of the law is not my business… and it’s not anyone else’s.

What is my business is knowing what makes a good guide and an enjoyable guide trip. Pause for a moment, how many full-time guides can you name? Exactly. There’s very few. Its a tough business and understanding that bringing home fish is the smallest part of what makes a successfully trip with a guide is the first step in being successful. If a guide chooses to portray himself as the meat hunter of the century, the only clientel he will attract is those out to put the biggest stringers of fish in the boat in the shortest amount of time. The rest of his “potential” customers will see him, or her, as someone that has nothing else to offer…. no insights, no tips, no understanding of their body of water to share. Afterall, if the ultimate goal was to bring home meat, people honestly would just go to the local grocery and buy their fish and call it a day. People are looking for something else when they book a guide trip, unfortunately, few guides see past filling stringers to really providing the service they were hired for.

Some of my “personal” approaches to self-regulating catch and keep practice in my boat on guide trips…

You are welcome to keep all the 15″ – 20″ walleye you are legally allowed. I will usually ask you if you have fish at home in the freezer and if you do, its a catch and release day. As a MN resident, you are not allowed a posession limit and keeping a limit on the water with one at home sets the table for potential waste. Not to mention the fact that it is completely against the law and I’m ruthless about ensuring I stay completely legal and that all my customers do so as well. If you catch a 24″ fish and you’d like to keep it, you can’t, except as a photo. This point is NOT open to negotiation. My boat is not run as a democracy. The only time a fish over 20″ is kept is when, in my judgement, the fish has been injured and I’ve made the judgement that this particular fish has little to no chance for survival. During the course of the year I will clean a handful of fish in the 20″ – 22″ range that would have just died and drifted along the bottom following a “release.” I firmly believe in releasing all fish over 20″ but not to the point that I’m willing to toss a big fish over the side just to say I did it, knowing all I did was waste that particular fish. That to me is a more of a short-sighted and flawed practice than just killing the fish outright in the first place.

I have had people get a bit “discouraged” when I’ve insisted a 25″ fish be released. Old habits and ways of thinking are hard to break in an instant. Typically that person reluctantly agrees and we have a calm on-going discussion about it throughout the day. Nearly always, by the end of the day, each and every person ends up stating that they feel good about that particular release and that their driving motivation to keep and kill that fish grew out of the moment of excitement. When a guide shares their sense of value placed on a larger fish, that value is often picked up on and incorporated into the customer’s value system.

I’d estimate that less than half of my customers choose to keep any fish at any time. Not a single trophy fish of any species, including scads of 29″+ walleyes, have gone home in the last couple years for a mount…. although the descision to keep or release a true trophy does fall to the customer. Some repeat customers I fish with a dozen times a year have never kept a single fish. By providing what I was really hired for in the first place, an educational, insightful and enjoyable day on the water, I avoid the pitfalls of needing to cater to the meat hogs.

So to anyone that thinks or says guides need to “compromise” their catch and release ethics to stay in business I simply say, not those that have something else to offer. Its really that simple.

Well, I was trying to let this topic slide by without adding my comments….but I can’t. I read Gary’s column and it starts out with a sarcastic remark about guides and then proceeds forward to talk about sharing information and utilizing the latest tools such as GPS to catch fish. I found the whole column to be uncharacteristic of Gary’s previous writings. Which has me confused in that he was a guide with the Nisswa league in the 70’s and is now a tournament fisherman. He is a very knowledgeable angler, this goes without saying, so where does the ignorance about today’s guides come from? Websites such as FTR and FTL are about sharing information and learning about different bodies of water. PERIOD. He ends his column with the notion that guides are out to horde information and not educate fellow anglers about fishing. Good grief!! He also writes about guides “double-dipping”, who the HECK does that?

Gary paints with a very broad brush a picture of today’s guides that I don’t agree with. Just my thoughts…Jon

I was also gonna let this one pass, but I don’t think I should. Remember so there are no misconceptions here I am a meateater. MR. Roach has given so much to this sport, that I’ll leave the judging to someone else. I’ll spend the time judging myself first and then sorry guys, judging, not speaking for my fellow guides.

One of the first things I hear, (from guide customers when booking a trip), is can we keep some fish or are you all catch and release. My answer is now pretty much always the same, walleye 15-20 inch and one over 28″.(This has been pretty much the accepted guidelines for those of us that actually make a big part of our living guiding). And then I say , lets try to keep no more than six. That means , no we are not including six fish for me,(when I fish), and even if there are three of you let’s only keep six fish. I can’t remember ever having anybody give me a hard time.

Bass almost nobody wants to keep one under 7#s so that is handled already, and everything else is take your limit, if you want. Do I ever fudge, absolutely. On a day where it just isn’t happening if a 22-23 incher comes in the boat without eggs am I gonna keep it. Only if the customer asks, but yes then. I’m sure that some of my customers, don’t like how I say it,”You don’t want to keep this one, do you?”

but I mean it just like I say it and then it is up to them to decide.

Next as to judging myself as a guide and a meateater: There was a time very recently when I kept my limit and so did my guide customers. It is honestly hard for me at this time to keep more than three or four fish a week to eat.

Secondly judging, but not speaking for some of my fellow guides, (even though it is hypocritical because of my past habits), a lot of folks that guide around here leave the water with full limits , for all the bodies in the boats(remember guys some of your guide customers are also my customers and some of you would be suprised how many times , I hear “I can’t believe we kept that many fish”, obviously sometimes never being asked if they want to keep them all.(I would bet in the past some of you have heard the same thing about me ). I have probably in the past have assumed that mistake way to many times, myself. Most do the size limit thing, and some don’t even know it exists.

I have been told numerous times that there are more fish than we can ever catch,(You have seen me post that exact phrase,and I was wrong). But recently from those who we depend on to know the next sentence of information is , “Did you know some years we have 85% natural mortality”,(a very recent discovery for me), It’s hard to buy the first one when you hear the 85% thing. We can all really hurt this population , even on pool 4. Unless you don’t know it I have been pushing for about a year now to go with catch and release for Walleye, in the three prime spawning weeks, at least on the rivers where the numbers are so concentrated(with dams). This could have cost me $4200.this year and might cost my only loyal Sponsor even more, but just what if we don’t and the population dwindles???? I have also been asking for a 4 fish limit for walleye tourneys, all year long. I really believe that we can hurt the walleye population very badly.

I could have easily kept 630 or more walleye already this year on guide trips that went back in the water. Much to their credit most fish went back in with my guests approval.

I have to commend Nate for standing up for what he believes. Not very long ago he and I were strongly on different sides of the issue and frankly I gave him a pretty hard time. His words and my amazement at the 85% Mortality thing, have continued over the past year changing me back to the position that it is better to be wrong on the side of conservation, than wrong on the side of overfishing. Being part Native American I have to say that the elders have most, always said keep only what you can eat, but I sure didn’t use to pay much attention. Jeremy is right you all have the right to choose and the only real limit now is the legal limit,and that we all can make our own choice to be more conservative. I hope all of us will rethink what we do with the resource. I know all of you appreciate the resource. Lawrence Ecklor

Our guide pages

I have not personally read the article. I whole heartedly have agree with MR.Holst on this one! I’ve been doing the guiding thing now for over 2 years, you get to meet a lot of diverse people in your adventures as a guide. Myself and clients are always on the same page first thing in the morning before even leaving the boat dock. I’ve personally rejected guide trips because of pre-communication findings. When I’m hired it is to provide an educational fun filled day on the water, not to see how many fish we can kill! If you market your guide service as a meat business you’ll get meat hunters!

About 50% of my guide trips are catch and release depending on the angler. Some customers want to keep just a few for a meal, most want to just spend a day on the water to learn new presentations/ techniques along with different locations.

As James stated, if you run your guide business based solely on seeing how many fish you can catch without sending someone home with the feeling you have made them a better angler, you will in the long run be very unsuccessful as a fishing guide.

In order to be successful in this line of work you have to be as good a teacher as you are a fisherman.

See ya on the river!

As the EFN-PRO CHEF…My thoughts on Keeping And Eating…# 1..Fish is best when prepared “FRESH” ..Never Frozen…# 2 It Takes LESS than a month to have “FREEZER BURN” Develope on your fish..Once freezer burned the fish is useless!!!..There are ways to Freeze fish so they are still edible ..but You would need a “Blast” Freezer…and only “the Industry”..Has them..So..If you are NOT going to eat the fish within 2-4 days RELEASE THEM!!!! There is not ONE thing wrong with keeping fish to EAT…JUST…keep what you and/or your family can comsume in 2-4 days…As for Walleyes..15-18 in Is probley the best for eating..any smaller than 15…is just not big enough(And Illegal on the mississippi)…and over 18 they get “soft”..not to mention that the longer the fish is alive, the more PCB’S and mercury…it is expose to…and these are stored in the belly fats and “MEAT” of the fish….AS far as keeping a ” BIG ONE” If It is going to die?…Thats a pesona l(AND hopefully) A PROFFESIONAL CALL …MOST OF US DON’T POSSES THAT ABILITY…IF the fish is bleeding …and I try to recesitate it …It takes off on its own power…Does it live or die?….I’d rather give it its chances and not keep it…

SWANY

EFN-PRO CHEF

I just finished reading Gary’s article. Wow, what a difference in opinion on what was said. The article is focused on as the title says “leveling the catching field”. It’s about using technology, sharing of info (such as FTR/FTL), etc, to learn the art/enjoyment of catching fish as quick as you can before your time is up. Shorten the learning curve as Gary puts it. If technology/sharing info gets you there quicker, great. He then encourages catch and release. With the encouragement of selective harvest and slots now days, we have all seen the benefits of what this can do. He does takes a stab at some as he puts it have clients take the guides limit home also. This does occur and it is double dipping. I know, I’ve had guides offer there limit to me. This does not mean 100% of the guides do it, it may be only 0.5% of them, I don’t know. He point is, use what is out there to the fullest of your ability and enjoy fishing but use only harvest what you will eat, practice catch and release. I believe some we need to back off on Gary’s article. Well written in my opinion. Oh ya, James is one of the best in the business for professional and respect for the resource. Tim Harms

I have just been told that some of the information in the Outdoor News article that was published was not correct. There is some information that was published here that Gary never even mentioned to the editor. I do not have the details at this time, but let it be known that I have a great deal of respect for Gary Roach and that this article seemed awfully fishy to me that he would be promoting information like this.
I for one do not believe its true.

Just wanted to let everyone know that this article was not published accurately. I will try to post more info as I get it.

DeeZee,

Thanks for sharing that piece of missing information. I should never stray away from my life theory. “Believe none of what you hear and half of what you read and life will be a lot less complex.”

Mr. Roach has been an idol of mine for as long as I can remember so I was rather shocked by the articles slant towards guides and keeping fish.

Good fishing………

Kurt

Mr. Roach is a tournament fisherman. I never have fished a Tournament, but I have fished a lake after a Tournament. One time that really comes to mind is on Big Pine Lake (By Perham). Two days after a tournament and a strong wind we counted close to a dozen nice Walleye dead. When the guides on this site catch & release they do it with a quick picture and not going in the live well. The tournament fisherman catches one in the morning and it stays in the live well until after the tournament and then is released thus many more dead Walleye. I remember many times I’ve caught a nice Bass, Northern, or Walleye and put it in my live well then went full speed back to the resort to get my picture taken before I released it. If I can catch my limit I eat it unless it is a big fish. If I catch 3# or larger walleye or Bass I release it. If I catch a Northern over 26 inches I release it. If that is all I catch that day I go back to my camper and start up the grill for a nasty old piece of COW.

Didn’t get the chance to read Gary’s article,but i get the gest of it.I love the reply of James,and think he hit it right on.Maybe some day i’ll have the money to fish with you James and also learn,until then good fishing.

Quote:

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“Perhaps Mr. Roach should see if he can find time to fish with a “professional” guide like Mr. Holst”

I had thought I had heard everything!!!!! Gary Roach learning from James Holst on how to be a “professional” guide. Kurt what planet did this come from? It is not from this one we call earth (or reality).

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If you asked Mr. Roach if he might learn something from a day on the water with Mr. Holst, I’d be willing to bet he’d answer in the affirmative. You don’t get to the top by having a closed mind.

As for the article, Mr. Roach has been a respected pro for a long time and I have to think that some of this is taken out of context or miscommunicated.