Electric carp barrier in St. Paul wouldn’t work

From the Star Trib today:

Electric carp barrier in St. Paul wouldn’t work, DNR says
Article by: JOSEPHINE MARCOTTY , Star Tribune Updated: January 3, 2013 – 2:54 PM

But officials want to pursue another technology to stop the invasive fish.
An electric barrier at the Ford Dam in St. Paul is not a feasible option to stop the spread of Asian carp up the Mississippi River and into Minnesota’s northern lakes, state officials announced Thursday.

And the federal government probably wouldn’t allow its construction anyway, officials said.

That leaves sound and bubble barriers as the only possible deterrent to the invasive fish, which are moving north from Illinois and pose a threat to both the Great Lakes and northern waterways. That combination would not be as effective as electricity, the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources said Thursday, and would be experimental because such a barrier has never been tested in a lock a dam.

The DNR said it would, nonetheless, recommend that the state fund a light and bubble barrier, which will cost $12 million to $19 million for construction and $250,000 per year to operate.

Electric barriers are being used in the Chicago River canal to stop the spread of the fish from the Mississippi into the Great Lakes. But if used in a lock, the barrier could pose a danger to people who are using the locks to move upriver. And it could corrode the mechanism in the lock and dam, the DNR said.

Asian carp have been found in Minnesota waters of the Mississippi River, but there is no evidence yet that they are reproducing here. The DNR is concerned about the voracious fish moving upstream beyond the Twin Cities to lakes and smaller rivers.

The fish are capable of eating 5 to 20 percent of their body weight each day. Asian carp feed on algae and other microscopic organisms, often out competing other fish for food. Scientists believe the fish could severely disrupt the aquatic ecosystems of Minnesota waters. In other states, Asian carp have become up dominant speicies in other rivers, displacing most other game and non-game species.

Josephine Marcotty • 612-673-7394

…so the electric barrier won’t work. Lets use the less effective bubbler option. That makes a lot of sense.

-J.

Thats not good

The good thing is that they need the Lessard Outdoor fund to cough up $7 million for the project. I’m guessing there maybe enough smart guys on that board to stop this experiment dead in it’s tracks.

I have been in contact with an engineering firm out of Vancouver Washington that has developed an acoustic water gun that implodes the asian carps vital organs on the inside. The idea is to radio tag the invasive species and find where they spawn or where they school up and blast them with the acoustic water gun. Since asian carp are filter feeders they spend almost all there life in the top 4 feet of water, colateral damage may be minimal. This is a very possible future solution. It seems as if the government and state agencies have given up on pool 4 as far as trying to protect it from asian carp. Don’t worry though. It is looking like there may be an answer that comes out of the private sector. We still have not thrown in the towel.

Humans are great at killing things, especially when we take advantage of spawning grounds. If we can find schools of these fish they can be wiped out in big time numbers very efficiantly.

P.S. Lessard Representatives in general are not a supporter of bubble machines or stoping asian carp on the River for that matter. Howevery many of the representatives would stop at nothing to prevent the great lakes from being infected.

As far as I know they have only found a couple stray fish this far North. Is there any evedence they can even survive in the North?

You are right. There is no spawning population of Asian Carp in pool 4, but i feel the threat is real and so must other state agencies if they are talking about potential spread. “Invasive species” are non native species that evolve biological technology that makes them far superior to most native species with tools and characteristics that allow the invasives to out compete natives such as fast growth, efficient reporduction etc. Invasive species are born survivors.

But is spending untold millions towards a “experiment” the way to go?

How about they get some hard proof that the Carp can even survive and reproduce this far North. Then how about finding a solution that they know can work instead of throwing darts at the wall? This whole thing smells like a big government agency waste to me. Just because they have the Carp in rivers that don’t freeze over, doesn’t mean that Mother Nature and the freezing Mississippi can’t stop them.

DNR NEWS – FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE JAN. 3, 2013

Report concludes bubble, sound and light barrier feasible as Asian carp deterrent
at Lock and Dam #1 in Minneapolis

A new report commissioned by the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources (DNR) has concluded that an Asian carp barrier using sound, bubbles and lights would be the most viable option to deter invasive fish from moving past Lock and Dam #1, commonly known as the Ford Dam.

The DNR recently contracted with Barr Engineering Co. to evaluate options for an Asian carp deterrent barrier at the lock and dam on the Mississippi River. The report specifically examined what type of barrier could be used within the lock chamber, which allows commercial and recreational boats and barges to move upstream.

The chief advantage of a lock barrier is that it does not need to block fish passage across the entire river, but to deflect fish away from the smaller opening at the lock.

The goal is to prevent the fish from using the lock chamber to gain access to the upper reaches of the river, which connects to other rivers and lakes.

While an electric barrier inserted into the water would be the most effective technology for carp deterrence, the Barr report concluded it is not a feasible option due to significant public safety risks and corrosion to metal components of the lock.

The report also states that it is highly unlikely that the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers would approve an electric barrier at the lock.

A safer and less damaging alternative would involve a barrier using sound, air bubbles and lights. Together, these technologies will deter fish and pose lower risks, but may not be as effective as electricity. The sound, air bubble and light barrier would be considered experimental because such barrier has never been tested in an environment similar to a lock chamber.

The DNR’s recommendation to policymakers is that the state should proceed with the design and construction of the sound, air bubble and light deterrent barrier at Lock and Dam #1.

The estimated construction cost for such a system is $12 million, though due to uncertainties in the final design and construction, the cost could be as high as $19 million. The estimated annual operation and maintenance cost is up to $250,000.

The Minnesota Legislature approved a $7.5 million appropriation from the Outdoor Heritage Fund to design and construct Asian carp barriers, of which $5.6 million is allocated to design and construct the barrier at Lock & Dam #1. Of that amount, DNR anticipates needing about $1 million for the design, leaving $4.6 million for construction.

Based on the range of cost estimates and schedule, an additional $8 million to $15 million will be needed to complete the barrier and operate it through the next biennium.

Asian carp have been found in Minnesota waters of the Mississippi River, but there is no evidence yet that they are reproducing here. The DNR is concerned about the voracious-eating fish moving upstream beyond the Twin Cities to lakes and smaller rivers.

The fish are capable of eating 5 to 20 percent of their body weight each day. Asian carp feed on algae and other microscopic organisms, often outcompeting for food with native fish. Scientists believe the fish could severely disrupt the aquatic ecosystems of Minnesota waters. In other states, Asian carp have become up to 80 percent of the fish biomass in rivers, displacing numerous other game and non-game species.

Anyone know what happened to the Africanized Killer Bee’s?

With the pressure of watershed commissioners, Mayors and a Governor, it’s my belief the DNR feels it must do something…anything as long as it does something.

Doing something cost money. Lots of money.

Tomorrow starts the beginning of the 2013 DNR Roundtable. The agenda is caulk full of AIS. So much so, I’m willing to bet every speaker says the word AIS at least twice while addressing the group.

Killer bees exist in the SW. My nephew in LA was finding dead birds in the yard and thought it odd, then discovered they had an infestation under the eave of their house when the dog was attacked and stung badly. They then called the exterminator who was able to apply some toxic chemical which killed them. My impression is that it has become a matter of discovery and then destroy to manage the problem.

I personally do not put any faith in the electric, acoustic, or bubble screen for stopping the carp.

Anyone aware of any studies regarding the presence of asian carp in any other waters world wide (outside of SE Asia) that might have a similar problem and be similar in climate?

It seems like for all the time elapsed on this problem, one should be able to put two carp in a contained pond in the north and determine whether they would reproduce in a cold climate.

Good One Weldon!!!

Waste of money in my opinion!

Sky is falling mentality by media scares people even those that never are on any of the water effected.

I believe the Asian carp don’t like it in the upper pools of the Mississippi if they did they would of took it over by now there’s been plenty of time for them to work there way up river and take it over but they sure like the Illinois river!

You’re spot on Weldon and Outdoors AND Cuspits…more to my point with the bees. Just a few summers ago, they were making new frequently. Today? Nota word.

Does this sound familiar?

Quote:

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he African bee is widely feared by the public, a reaction that has been amplified by sensationalist movies (such as The Swarm) and some of the media reports. Stings from African bees kill one or two people per year in the United States.

As the bee spreads through Florida, a densely populated state, officials worry that public fear may force misguided efforts to combat them.

“News reports of mass stinging attacks will promote concern and in some cases panic and anxiety, and cause citizens to demand responsible agencies and organizations to take action to help ensure their safety. We anticipate increased pressure from the public to ban beekeeping in urban and suburban areas. This action would be counter-productive. Beekeepers maintaining managed colonies of domestic European bees are our best defense against an area becoming saturated with AHB. These managed bees are filling an ecological niche that would soon be occupied by less desirable colonies if it were vacant. ”

— Florida African Bee Action Plan

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I think a start might be put a couple asian carp in a confined system at the water temperature for that time of year to see if they spawn. Maybe they will try to and lay eggs but will the water temperature be warm enough for the eggs to develope and hatch, seems simple enough to do. Has a study like this ever been done finding the temperature at which thier eggs are layed and do hatch.

If they don’t spawn at a certain temperature then maybe raise that temperature to a point to see what it takes for a hatch. It seems like that might take just a few months for a fairly accurate study, a controled temperature hatch study? I know that if the water temperature isn’t warm enough for most fish, that the female will just absorb thier eggs back into thier system or try to lay them without a hatch, right?

My only concern would be that the majority of MN waters see temp flucuations from 32*-80* throughout the year. I would imagine the fish could find something that works for them.

And the name for this project? The Fish Disco. All they need now is to find a place to hang a one of those glass balls over the dam.

Quote:

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DNR NEWS – FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE JAN. 3, 2013

Report concludes bubble, sound and light barrier feasible as Asian carp deterrent
at Lock and Dam #1 in Minneapolis

A new report commissioned by the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources (DNR) has concluded that an Asian carp barrier using sound, bubbles and lights would be the most viable option to deter invasive fish from moving past Lock and Dam #1, commonly known as the Ford Dam.

The DNR recently contracted with Barr Engineering Co. to evaluate options for an Asian carp deterrent barrier at the lock and dam on the Mississippi River. The report specifically examined what type of barrier could be used within the lock chamber, which allows commercial and recreational boats and barges to move upstream.

The chief advantage of a lock barrier is that it does not need to block fish passage across the entire river, but to deflect fish away from the smaller opening at the lock.

The goal is to prevent the fish from using the lock chamber to gain access to the upper reaches of the river, which connects to other rivers and lakes.

While an electric barrier inserted into the water would be the most effective technology for carp deterrence, the Barr report concluded it is not a feasible option due to significant public safety risks and corrosion to metal components of the lock.

The report also states that it is highly unlikely that the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers would approve an electric barrier at the lock.

A safer and less damaging alternative would involve a barrier using sound, air bubbles and lights. Together, these technologies will deter fish and pose lower risks, but may not be as effective as electricity. The sound, air bubble and light barrier would be considered experimental because such barrier has never been tested in an environment similar to a lock chamber.

The DNR’s recommendation to policymakers is that the state should proceed with the design and construction of the sound, air bubble and light deterrent barrier at Lock and Dam #1.

The estimated construction cost for such a system is $12 million, though due to uncertainties in the final design and construction, the cost could be as high as $19 million. The estimated annual operation and maintenance cost is up to $250,000.

The Minnesota Legislature approved a $7.5 million appropriation from the Outdoor Heritage Fund to design and construct Asian carp barriers, of which $5.6 million is allocated to design and construct the barrier at Lock & Dam #1. Of that amount, DNR anticipates needing about $1 million for the design, leaving $4.6 million for construction.

Based on the range of cost estimates and schedule, an additional $8 million to $15 million will be needed to complete the barrier and operate it through the next biennium.

Asian carp have been found in Minnesota waters of the Mississippi River, but there is no evidence yet that they are reproducing here. The DNR is concerned about the voracious-eating fish moving upstream beyond the Twin Cities to lakes and smaller rivers.

The fish are capable of eating 5 to 20 percent of their body weight each day. Asian carp feed on algae and other microscopic organisms, often outcompeting for food with native fish. Scientists believe the fish could severely disrupt the aquatic ecosystems of Minnesota waters. In other states, Asian carp have become up to 80 percent of the fish biomass in rivers, displacing numerous other game and non-game species.

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The day I see jumping carp in P3 is the day before I take a shotgun out and have some fun. Steel shot of course.

Its pretty scary that most of the opinions expressed feel that they don’t think invasive carp can live hear because “they just don’t think so or because they are not jumping around everywhere yet”.

Also BK. It seems as if you are simply parading around invasives that never made an impact on a banner. What about zebra muscles, buckthorn, milfoil.

Also, the reason carp are not already hear is because of the Lock and Dams. I don’t care what people say, they are major migratory barriers for fish period.

I don’t know if Pool 4 will ever be like illinois, but I feel doing nothing and waiting for the problem to become a problem are not options either. Research and action may be nessessary.

I hope they never become a problem because I am on the river 100 days a year, but I have seen to many beautiful places overtaken by invasive species. I believe that Asian Carp can live hear because grass carp (from Asia )are from the same climates and they thrive hear.

I love my Zeb’s Mudneck. Leave them out of this. Filtering a quart of water each day makes me happy. Look at the other side of the spectrum and what they did for Lake Erie.

I’m just not the type of guy that likes throwing money into a black hole…unless it’s my boat.

Ok, let’s say they are coming. That’s a heck of a lot of money when we don’t know if it’s going to work. Never been tried or tested before. Hell, the manufacturer won’t even stand behind it!

Ok…let’s say it does work. What about the MN River? What about all it’s tributaries? Please don’t make me draw a map to show where they can go once in the MN.

At what point do we look at cost/benefits?

IF MN was serious about this, they would be chasing the sources of most ais. The blast water from the ships on the great lakes. But today, the State chooses to spend our money on trying to slow the invasive as we all know they can’t be stopped.

Maybe I’m extremely short sighted…but I say let the Asian Carp come. They make very good catfish bait from what the guys down South have been telling me.

Why try to stop them at the ford dam. Our goverment dropped the ball on these carp a long time ago. Should have been proactive and tryed to stop them at tne Iowa border. Not the twin cities……BK you already have E Nuff catfish bait.. …rrr

I wonder if a catfood cannery would work instead of shipping them to Chicago if they make it that far north, just an idea. The commercial guys would probably go all out and fish them heavy, many tons of fish would be caught if they could be sold right away. Maybe a cannery with 1/2 dozen trucks driving up and down the miss picking up fish, taking them back to the cannery, weighing them and then sending the check for the weight to the fishermen. Maybe the Iowa, wisc. and minn. DNR’s could jointly invest in a cannery, better then spending the money to stop them because they aren’t going to be able to do that. Split the money 3 ways from sales to reinvest back into each state and their projects. Government grant to build the cannery instead of just throwing it away, do something constructive with the money. Look at the alternative, many waters with a big population of asian carp in them and still wondering what to do with them.

Quote:

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The commercial guys would probably go all out and fish them heavy, many tons of fish would be caught

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…The commercial guys have been fishing the Illinois river for a number of years. They have taken 100s of 1000s of tons of carp from that river. DID NOT EVEN MAKE DENT IN IN THOSE FISH.!!!!!!!! …rrr

Hmmmmm, bad news forsure.

Quote:

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I believe that Asian Carp can live hear because grass carp (from Asia )are from the same climates and they thrive hear.

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Never heard of Grass Carp in MN. Common yes Grass no.

Link to Grass Carp via MN DNR website<

No populations although like the other Asian carp, a few individuals have been found.

BK at the DNR roundtable do they have one squaretable for you.? …rrr

I’m not supporting the Carp in any way, but I have to say it does look fun to chase them with bows/nets/shovels/bats/whatever…… Probably not the most ethical way to go after it, but i’ve heard of plenty of people doing it. And I like the idea of a way to reward commercial fisherman for going after them. It might not get rid of them, but it can’t hurt.