Planning for first plot

  • fishingchallenged
    Posts: 314
    #1838048

    Been reading most of the topics in this forum and have read lots of good advice on getting started, but this question doesn’t seem to be addressed. If my pH is too low, is there anything that I can plant this spring? Or do I need to get lime down and wait until late summer to plant?

    My goal for this coming year is to get my first one or two plots in. I have identified several areas that are pretty open and with some additional clearing I think I can get two areas that are in the 1-2 acre size rolling this year. This is ground that has never been cultivated and I didn’t get any soil samples before the frost. I’m assuming that I will need to add lime. It’s in central MN, west of Mr. Grouse. My initial thoughts are to start with some clover stands and then as I expand my number of plots I will add more variety. Can I get clover to grow even if the pH level isn’t optimal? Or will I need to get the lime down and wait until late summer to plant?

    mike mulhern
    Posts: 171
    #1838114

    Yes it will grow it just won’t be as palatable and desireable as it would be if the ph was perfect. You can plant late season oats as you clear more land for planting and it will be dead in the spring. Your clover should last a few years and you can spread lime on it as its growing. Keep in mind the lime will hurt it a little but generally speaking it will recover. I would advise you putting on 3tons per acre without a soil test, before planting.

    Mike

    TheFamousGrouse
    St. Paul, MN
    Posts: 11808
    #1838155

    Don’t let acidic soil kill your fun. People often misunderstand the problem with acidic soil. It’s not that things won’t grow in acidic soil or that what grows is not palatable to deer.

    The problem (in very simple terms) with soil that tests below the recommended Ph level for a given plant is that acidic soil limits the plant’s ability to uptake and utilize nutrients. Therefore growth of the plant is slowed and maturity will come more slowly. Not ideal, but not a deal buster because we’re just growing stuff to feed deer. Let ‘er rip.

    Yes, you can get good stands of clover to grow in low Ph (acidic) soil. I do it all the time because adjusting Ph takes years. I started at an average of 4.5 to 4.75 and only now after years of lime applications am I sneaking up on 5.5. Still a ways to go to get to 6, but like I said, don’t let that spoil your fun.

    To keep this simple, apply as much lime as possible before planting. Guys will often say to try to get local co-ops to spread lime for you, I’ll tell you right now forget that. Your plots are too small and their equipment is too big, it’s too difficult to arrange and your ground will probably be too soft to do it in the spring anyway.

    Instead, spread as much pelletized lime as you can in the early spring. Pelletized lime looks like fertilizer and spreads easily through a broadcast spreader. Lime does not wash away nor does it evaporate like fertilizer, so spread any time after the snow is gone. I spread lime in the early spring when there is nothing else that can be done because the ground is too wet. I use an ATV and a towable spreader.

    On small plots like yours, clover is an excellent choice. It’s under-rated because I think to some guys it seems too easy. There is never a time when deer won’t eat clover if they can get it. It also is the most acidic tolerant of the common food plot crops. Plant a clover blend, don’t be fooled into anyone telling you X or Y clover as a single variety is “best”. To a deer, clover is clover, and a blend gives you the best chance at good performance in different weather and soil conditions.

    Also, make sure you plant a norther-hardy, PERRENIAL clover. Many southern US blends contain only annual clovers that must be replanted every year. In the north, we want perrenial clovers because our short growing season and the clove up here doesn’t die in the heat as it does down south.

    Get a thorough kill on your plots with glyphosate (roundup) before planting. I always kill twice, spray once on green weeds and then spray a second time before planting. Gly is a contact killer, it does not affect seed and it has no residual in the soil.

    In our area, you must use a nurse crop on small plots. A nurse crop grows faster than teh clover so the deer browse the nurse crop rather than pulling out the clover. Clover without a nurse crop will be damaged by overbrowsing and the deer pull it out by the roots when it’s young, thinning the plot. A nurse crop limits this damage.

    If possible, plant your clover in May or June or after August 1 if rains have been frequent. For a nurse crop for all summer clover, I use oats at about 100 pounds per acre.

    If you need clover, our Mega Clover Plus blend is always in stock and I have oats as well.

    Don’t rush your prep work in the spring. Wait for greenup, spray to kill, work the ground, spray again, and keep at it until you’re ready to plant. Seed bed prep is absolutely key, having a clean seed bed greatly limits problems down the road.

    Best of luck. You’ll love it!

    Grouse

    Randy Wieland
    Lebanon. WI
    Posts: 13623
    #1838229

    Grouse gave a great explanation. I’ve had years where I lacked the time to do it right and rushed to get something in. Especially in years that I did corn 3 years in a row. In cases like that, you mainly see a difference at maturity. Corn stalks not as tall or cobs not as big. Still better to have something there than nothing at all

    TheFamousGrouse
    St. Paul, MN
    Posts: 11808
    #1838238

    I talk to a lot of food plotters and the thing to understand is that for most of us, lime takes time. That even rhymes…

    But seriously, people hear all the time that they need 2, 3, and even 4 tons of lime per acre, but almost nobody can do that all at once. The vast majority of food plotters that I talk can’t, for logistical, cost, or practical reasons, have to apply smaller quantities as time, money, and conditions allow.

    So most of us are on the installment plan. I try to spread about 1.5 to 2 tons of pelletized lime every year on my roughly 10 acres. I usually focus that lime on a plot that’s just being planted that year or an area I haven’t limed in a while.

    It’s a slow process, but in the meantime, I keep planting and the deer keep eating.

    As Randy points out, lime is about optimizing and gaining more rapid growth and maturity. This is a must have if you’re farming, but we aren’t farming, we’re just growing stuff to let the deer eat it.

    Grouse

    2619
    Northeast MPLS
    Posts: 136
    #1838328

    Go for it, things will grow.

    I am just getting started myself.

    I have a small area that has been mowed previously, approximately 1/4-1/2 acre. The deer have always used this opening, since I am in a Big Woods setting, most opening and edge habitat attract deer. There is zero agriculture anywhere.

    The soil is HEAVY clay, there is a decent layer of organic matter/top soil from years of mowing. Last year I sprayed and planted a test area with clover and chicory to see if anything would actually grow. It grew very well!

    I started spreading lime last year and plan on killing and planting the entire thing this spring.

    My question is, Where do you purchase pelletized lime in bulk? I’d assume a local COOP/farm supplier.

    Are you buying 50# bags of pelletized lime? What is a reasonable price expectation for pelletized lime?

    Thanks for your inputs.

    2619
    Northeast MPLS
    Posts: 136
    #1838336

    If planting oats as nurse crop, It is my understanding that in order to get good soil contact I will need to work the soil.

    At this point, my best option for working the soil is going to be to use my walk behind garden tiller. I was able to grow the clover by simply broadcasting the seeds after spraying and killing the existing weeds and grasses.

    Secondly, will spring planted oats hang on through summer and into fall, assuming we have average or better rainfall?

    sticker
    StillwaterMN/Ottertail county
    Posts: 4418
    #1838340

    Yes, it’s best to get good seed to soil contact with oats, meaning you need loose soil. I have planted oats twice in the spring as a cover crop for late summer planted brassica. Both times I had a great crop of oats that were mature by mid July. I would think they would have stayed standing well into August.

    fishingchallenged
    Posts: 314
    #1838529


    In our area, you must use a nurse crop on small plots. A nurse crop grows faster than teh clover so the deer browse the nurse crop rather than pulling out the clover. Clover without a nurse crop will be damaged by overbrowsing and the deer pull it out by the roots when it’s young, thinning the plot. A nurse crop limits this damage.

    If possible, plant your clover in May or June or after August 1 if rains have been frequent. For a nurse crop for all summer clover, I use oats at about 100 pounds per acre.

    So if I understand you correctly, let’s say I’m ready to roll by mid-June. I spray, disc, spray, broadcast my clover seed and also broadcast oats at the same time? By the time the oats die off, the clover will be strong enough to hold it’s own against the herd? If I have that right, when would I want to go in and mow the plot? In the August time frame?

    Many thanks for all the valuable advice!

    TheFamousGrouse
    St. Paul, MN
    Posts: 11808
    #1838548

    My question is, Where do you purchase pelletized lime in bulk? I’d assume a local COOP/farm supplier.

    Are you buying 50# bags of pelletized lime? What is a reasonable price expectation for pelletized lime?

    I’ve never found pelletized lime in bulk. And I’m not sure I’d want to get it that way. Lime is dusty, messy, and it must be kept ABSOLUTELY dry. Get it even damp and you’ve got a huge mess.

    It’s just much easier to buy it in bags, it’s easier to store, handle, and transport.

    I buy it in 40 to 50 pound bags. My best prices have come from Menards and Tractor Supply Company.

    Actually, Menards has it on sale right now. $4.44 a bag after rebate.

    I got it for $4.29 last year because strangely it was both on sale AND there was an 11% off rebate week, but I wouldn’t pass on the $4.44 hoping for that deal again.

    Sounds like you have some good plot spots. You’ll do well with those in-woods plots.

    Grouse

    deertracker
    Posts: 9249
    #1838551

    It’s actually $3.99 after rebate right now at Menards for a 40 pound bag.
    DT

    TheFamousGrouse
    St. Paul, MN
    Posts: 11808
    #1838554

    It’s actually $3.99 after rebate right now at Menards for a 40 pound bag.
    DT

    Really? Did you see that in the store or is it in the ad this week?

    That’s a very good price!

    Grouse

    TheFamousGrouse
    St. Paul, MN
    Posts: 11808
    #1838555

    So if I understand you correctly, let’s say I’m ready to roll by mid-June. I spray, disc, spray, broadcast my clover seed and also broadcast oats at the same time?

    Yes, you plant the nurse crop (oats) at the same time as the clover blend.

    What I do is prep the plot and when it’s time to seed, I broadcast the oats first. I then lightly disc or drag the oats. I do this because oats are big and highly visible to birds. Birds will eat every oat they can see if they realize there are free oats just laying on the ground, so it helps a lot to disc or drag to slightly bury some of the oats.

    Then after the oats are planted, I go over the plot with the shoulder bag seeder and spread the clover blend. Our Midwest Monster blend is called Mega Clover Plus, it’s 5 different clover species, both red and white (4 perennial and annual crimson) and the plus is Chicory.

    Clover seed is like pepper and it is very easy to spread too much seed, so I set the seeder for half of the recommended rate and then I walk the plot twice to get a perfectly even spread with no gaps.

    I also apply an appropriate clover fertilizer at this time.

    Then if you have a roller or cultipacker, pack the plot. Otherwise, just leave it alone. Clover seed is too fine for the birds to see.

    By the time the oats die off, the clover will be strong enough to hold it’s own against the herd? If I have that right, when would I want to go in and mow the plot? In the August time frame?

    It is unlikely you will need to mow the clover in the first season. A good growth of clover if planted in June will be about 10-12 inches high. The oats, of course, will be higher and will be taking the bulk of the browsing pressure.

    I called your deer and they said they would be happy to mow that clover for you starting as soon as the weather cools in September. They said don’t worry about it, they’ll get-r-done even if it means eating there 2-3 times a day.

    And they will! This [ast fall, I had a plot of about 1.2 acres of new clover with oats. From the first cool week in September it was just crawling with deer and turkeys. Don’t believe anyone who tells you clover is second best to anything. Young clover to deer is like bringing free pizza in tp work for lunch–nobody can turn that down.

    Eventually, frost will kill the oats. The oats will probably seed out, but if you have turkeys like I do, the turkeys will have raided the plot until the find the last solitary oat seed. Either way, even if you get a few oats that survive the winter, they don’t harm the plot at all and they will die out the following fall.

    So what you’re left with the following spring is a plot of pure clover. Then you can start mowing as needed. Personally, “as needed” for me with my numbers of deer is once or at most twice if we’re getting a lot of rain. The key is to mow before weeds set seed pods or heads so you minimize weed infestation.

    Grouse

    fishingchallenged
    Posts: 314
    #1838593

    Awesome advice, many thanks! Also appreciate your help help negotiating with the herd to get them grazing. They’ve been a bit uncooperative since November!

    TheFamousGrouse
    St. Paul, MN
    Posts: 11808
    #1838619

    Food plotters worry a lot when first getting started that they will plant a plot and the deer won’t show up to the party.

    What really happens is that the deer show up from every direction.

    The biggest problem in the midwest, in general, is over-utilization of the plots. There are rare exceptions where the deer are well fed by spilled grain or lots of standing ag crops, but overall if you throw a food plot party, the deer will come.

    What I’ve found most challenging and enjoyable here in MN is trying to provide food for as much of the year as possible. Every year I’m trying to get plots that green up faster in the spring and crops that provide food longer into the fall/winter. Attracting deer hasn’t been a problem since about the 3rd day after my first plot sprouted out of the ground. I swear, from somewhere in the woods by that clover plot, I heard a “Wohooo!”…

    Grouse

    Randy Wieland
    Lebanon. WI
    Posts: 13623
    #1838621

    Having some standing oats in fall has been one of the absolute best enhancements I have done to my plots. We’ve had an enormous winter kill on turkeys around my place. Went from seeing over 100 turkeys a day to maybe a dozen a week. However, once we get that first snow, they just flock in and plow through.

    As for the deer. its been about the same. The interesting thing for me is the difference of their diet or preference when we get those first few snow falls. They make my plots look like I went through with a brush hog when the brassicas family plants sugar. Doesn’t take long for 2-3 acres to get hammered down fast. BUT, once the snow accumulates, the brassicas type plots fade out and my oats with some soybeans mixed in get clobbered. I’m always amazed how deep they dig and scrape through. Later in the winter, I take my ATV with a plow and push some strips through areas that are remaining.
    Also, having alfalfa and corn in strips next to my oats has been an eye opener also. The alfalfa is hit all summer and EARLY fall. But as soon as that first major frost kicks in, the corn is hit hard on the coldest days and the oats are grazed on over the alfalfa. Just some observations from my place.

    Now if we were hunting in the spring, I would plant another 10,000 burr oak trees. As soon as they bud, I can’t keep the freaking deer away from my trees

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    fishingchallenged
    Posts: 314
    #1838841

    Thought of another question…

    Is there a particular type of clover that attracts grouse better than others? You read quite a bit about planting clover on trails for grouse. Anyone run their clover down tree covered trails to provide better access for the grouse? I’m assuming if it’s the only thing available they will hang on the edges of a large plot so they get some cover from above. I could also shape some “fingers” of the plot back into the woods a bit as well. Curious what others have done.

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