I’m researching batteries for my Vex28. Almost pulled the trigger on a Norsk15 till I figured out they are not Lifepo4. They don’t hide that but they also aren’t real out front about it. Curious as to why they use the older technology, they charge the same price?
They weigh less
I am currently running a 30 , 18 and a 12 Amped . Also have a Norsk for back up . Which is better LiFePO4 vs lithium ion battery?
The LiFePO4 battery has the edge over lithium ion, both in terms of cycle life (it lasts 4-5x longer), and safety. This is a key advantage because lithium ion batteries can overheat and even catch fire, while LiFePO4 does not.
LiFEPO4 is the better choice as Don stated above. I use them for ice fishing and amateur radio.
LiFEPO4 is the better choice as Don stated above. I use them for ice fishing and amateur radio.
LifePo4 is the old tech and the rate at which it is being phased out is impressive.
What do Strikemaster, Ion, Hummingbird, Garmin, DeWalt, and Milwaukee all have in common? They have huge R&D departments, utilize some of the best power supplies in the business, and NONE of them use LifePo4.
Even the most die-hard resellers of LifePo4 batteries are now adding lithium ion (NMC) options in response to consumer demand.
The only use case where LifePo4 is still the chemistry of choice is high amp draw scenarios like marine batteries.
Isn’t the lifepo4 the safest? Aren’t the reg lithium the ones burning/ blowing up? Plus the lifepo4 have twice the charge life? I’m a rookie at this application for lithium whatever for fishing. Trying to figure out why MarCum’s are so cheap-$69 for a 12 aH and the charger. Anybody know?
Isn’t the lifepo4 the safest? Aren’t the reg lithium the ones burning/ blowing up? Plus the lifepo4 have twice the charge life? I’m a rookie at this application for lithium whatever for fishing. Trying to figure out why MarCum’s are so cheap-$69 for a 12 aH and the charger. Anybody know?
The claims about charge cycles remind me of that scene from Tommy Boy… lol
There’s no way to document charge cycles on an ice battery so companies have lost their minds trying to leap frog each other with claims about thousands, several thousand, many thousand charge cycles knowing there’s no way to document any of it.
Let’s take a very low charge cycle number of 500. All chemistries are making claims FAR beyond that now. If a guy fishes 50 times a year that battery won’t see a decline in capacity for ten years. And at that point the battery will still provide 80% capacity.
The usable life cycle of a well maintained, high quality lithium battery, regardless of chemistry, is so long as to almost be meaningless.
Case in point, I still have a lithium ion battery that was given to me in a hand made wooden case with visible spot weld burns where the terminals were joined to the wiring that still holds a charge and is used to power small lights in our studio almost a decade after I first received the battery from a client that wanted me to put it through the paces.
These things can last a long, long time if built from quality cells.
Now, if you want to know why some batteries with the same capacities vary so wildly improve all one needs to do is get ahold of a lithium cell supplier catalog. To say there’s a WIDE range of quality of cells with corresponding prices is an understatement. If you want to make a cheap(er) lithium battery at a particularly price point, there’s a cell for that. If longevity is your goal, that’s an entirely different cell…and price point.
I recommend everyone do their own research. Dakota Lithium are LiFePO4. Obviously they have done research on this also.
But Amped, Norsk, Dakota, or the others making batteries that target fisherman are not very large companies are they? There’s no Everready, Duracell, Interstate or other monster companies after this market is there? Ice fishing is a very limited application, with limited sales potential.
I see Garmin is packaging the Ice bundle with a Lithium ION.
I’ve always liked this guy’s battery breakdowns..
^^^Really good video and channel. Only thing not mentioned is the 11.1v NMC work just fine in Vexilars and other mechanical flashers. Also didn’t address 14.8v NMC batteries.
The real debate is about 11.1 nominal voltage vs. 14.4 nominal voltage. The potential issue is high draw electronics like HB Helix and Garmin generally require 10.5v minimum voltage. The 11.1v NMC batteries only have about 2/3 of their rated capacity available above that 10.5v threshold whereas the 14.4v LFP and 14.8v NMC can be used to their full capacity.
“LiFePO4” is LFP
“Lithium Ion” is NMC
Both are lithium ion batteries so only referring to NMC as lithium ion is a big part of the confusion in the fishing industry.
It’s not about NMC vs LFP cells. That was a smear campaign led by the AO Guy (were called energized outdoors at the time) when Norsk first started gaining market share… obviously it worked. NMC cell batteries aren’t unsafe bombs waiting to go off or burn up… that’s the technology used in every cordless power tool and infinitely more common the LFP batteries. Now are there some advantages of the LFP cells over NMC? Yeah, but there’s also advantages to NMC cells over LFP… that’s why both exist. The “charge cycle” marketing schtick is something that will be applicable to about 0.1% of ice fisherman.
I watched a couple of the videos in Joes post. That guy really breaks them down and literally breaks them open. Interesting, well worth the time to watch. He is definitely a hardcore lifepo4 guy.
Here’s where I think the industry will go.
For powering any of the live imaging systems, 20 AH+, the higher voltage Lithium Ion NMC batteries will continue to take market share. With a 10-20% runtime advantage per amp hour versus LiFePo4 with a significant weight savings the higher amp draw ice electronics will continue to swing towards NMC.
Marine batteries will continue to use LiFePo4 but the better batteries will move away from running cylindrical cells in favor of prismatic cells due to the weight savings and the significant improvements in reliability and longevity.
As for the lower AH batteries powering mechanical flashers and the smaller LCD sonar units Norsk 15ah will continue to take market share due to their long runtimes and light weight. That said, the first company to come out with prismatic cells in the lower AH ice batteries at current price points will have a battery that will offer a huge improvement in runtimes over anything currently on the market, even less weight and a smaller form factor.
And the best thing about online predictions is we can all come back in a couple years and see if I was close…or off the mark. 
The 11.1v NMC batteries only have about 2/3 of their rated capacity available above that 10.5v threshold
This threshold talk is intentionally misleading.
For example, a Hummingbird Helix doesn’t shut off at 10.5V. It shuts off at 8.6V. The test conducted in that video is using recommended voltage for a lead acid battery and applying it to a lithium ion power supply. A lead acid doesn’t have the amps to run a Humminbird Helix below 10.5v. A lithium ion battery does. My understanding is Hummingbird will be updating their recommended voltage range for both types of batteries in the near future.
Hummingbird chose the 15AH Norsk for a reason. I’ve been told directly by Humminbird that they tested a wide range of batteries from all the leading companies in the ice industry to find the battery they wanted to sell with their Helix sonar units and the Norsk 15AH beat them all out. Norsk is now sold with all Humminbird Ice bundles as standard equipment.
LiFePo4 fans might not like it but that’s the way it is. And the same is true for Garmin. They have a huge R&D team and they also chose NMC to power their sonar units.
So, for my small insignificant little Vex 28. If I bought the 15 aH Norsk, the 12aH Amped, or the 10 or 12 Dakota (not sure of actual number) would it make any difference at all or are even those overkill? They’re all $100 plus a charger. I do need the physical size of the Vex style battery. My head is spinning, I know just enough to be confused now. I want extended run time, light weight (an ounce or few is not important, lbs are), and hassle free.
So, for my small insignificant little Vex 28. If I bought the 15 aH Norsk, the 12aH Amped, or the 10 or 12 Dakota (not sure of actual number) would it make any difference at all or are even those overkill? They’re all $100 plus a charger. I do need the physical size of the Vex style battery. My head is spinning, I know just enough to be confused now. I want extended run time, light weight (an ounce or few is not important, lbs are), and hassle free.
Why not go for the Norsk 7.5? I think that is the battery for a Vex. Cheaper and significantly lighter. My Vex Fl12 will run for 32+ hours straight on an 8ah lithium battery. How much run time do you need?
tswoboda wrote:
The 11.1v NMC batteries only have about 2/3 of their rated capacity available above that 10.5v thresholdThis threshold talk is intentionally misleading.
You cut off the part where I said POTENTIAL issues 
I agree with you. He’s running a “Helix 7” run time test without using a Helix 7. That’s not a real world test. Also for everyone watching at home, that guy says he has a relationship with Amped Outdoors… the company that trashed NMC batteries and now sells them.
If you want it simple, go into big box sports store, ask for a lithium vex battery and charger, let them hand it to you, stop and grab those stupid delicious sugar roasted cashews on the way to cashier.
Bam, done. And you consumed 500 extra calories, you’re welcome
If you want it simple, go into big box sports store, ask for a lithium vex battery and charger, let them hand it to you, stop and grab those stupid delicious sugar roasted cashews on the way to cashier.
Bam, done. And you consumed 500 extra calories, you’re welcome
If you want it simple, go into big box sports store, ask for a lithium vex battery and charger, let them hand it to you, stop and grab those stupid delicious sugar roasted cashews on the way to cashier.
Bam, done. And you consumed 500 extra calories, you’re welcome
👍, but not Vex. At 69 years old I’ll never have time to do 2000 charges🥴, 90% I won’t make 500. I do support those that support sites like this and my two favorite are sponsored by Norsk & Amped. A 7.5 ah is probably sufficient to. In some brands the 7.5 and the one up, 10-12-15, are very close in price. Norsk is $25, which pays for the charger. Both have to be shipped where I live so I better get on it. Still another month of good ice around here so I’ll get to use it some.
The tests that Ice Hole is currently doing (temperature based) will be very interesting to see. Since these batteries are being used on the ice, temp based results are pretty important. I’ve killed a couple of batteries plugging them into a charger when they were still very cold. Some batteries/chargers have temp sensors some don’t. I learned the hard way.
At the end of the day, like James said it sort of splitting hairs. Lots of great tech out there and awesome stuff on the horizon. The new stacked cells will eventually make their way into the market. If you plan on keeping your battery through 5000 charge cycles (most think they will, but realistically won’t) then there is some separation of the 2 technologies.
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