New Smoke Pole

Picked up a TC Grey Hawk at a gun show last weekend, it had an instant “cool” factor and I couldn’t pass it up.

Fast forward to today and after picking up some lead projectiles and loose powder since my other muzzleloaders are in lines,I braved the heat for one 5 shot group in the back yard.

Today’s group was at 25yds and consisted of: 80grains Pyrodex RS behind a 385 grain Hornady Great Plains Bullet ignited by a #11 cap.

The black square is 2inx2in and the shots are numbered in the order they were fired. After each shot I ran both sides of a damp patch down the barrel followed by both sides of a clean dry patch.

Was well pleased with the first three shots, and definitely have a solid starting point for fine tuning the load. Going to try 70 grains and 90 grains of powder with this buller next and then try a few other projectiles including patched round balls.

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That’s a nice gun. Lots of deer have fallen to it.

You should try some sabots and .429-430 caliber bullets in the 240 to 280 grain range. Most likely you’ll tighten the group up. Don’t be afraid to try fffg powder granulation in it either. When I hunted a Hawken and my first Renegade I used 435 grain buffalo bullets atop a 110 grain charge of either black or Pyrodex in fffg and both shot like troopers.

I just found a single trigger Renegade in .54 cal that’s never been fired. Not sure if I will shoot it. I’ve got the sabots and .50 caliber 300 grain XTP pills to shoot with the T7 powder I got for it, but I just can’t bring myself to loading and shooting it. All of my other smokers are in-line and are geared to shoot the Blackhorn 209 smokeless powder.

I might try some sabots in it for fun and see what happens. I’m leaning towards keeping this rifle “traditional” and finding a solid lead projectile and loose powder combo that shoots well.

Those stainless Grey Hawks are dressy little carbines and not all that different from the Renegade I just found. The Renegade is walnut stock/blued.

If you do plan to try the sabots/bullet combo in the gun I recommend the Harvester Crush-Rib sabots, either green for the .44 caliber .429 – .430 bullets or black for the .451 – .452 bullets. With the 1:48 rifling you’ll want to keep the bullets as short as possible, 240 – 250 grain up to 300. You have to shove the saboted bullets along at a fair clip so 80 -100 grains of powder.

LEE makes some nice aluminum molds for casting your own traditional lead maxi’s too should you decide to take the traditional a step forward. The very traditional patched round balls are fun at the range or plinking. You have a nice gun with a ton of potential. Enjoy and congrats on the find.

Congrats on the smoke pole!
I haven’t been able to hunt with a shotgun since I got my first one!

Nic Barker wrote:

385 grain Hornady Great Plains Bullet

I’m using barnes expander mz for 1st shot and the T-EZ for #2 &#3.
Both in 250gr.
They pack super tight in the barrel.
Plop 150 of powder behind it if you dare! I do.

These guns can be as long range or simple short range, as you want them to be.

Under the right circumstances I’d pull the trigger out to 300yds.

Many deer I’ve taken with a muzzleloader and I haven’t found a better bullet than those two Barnes copper ones mentioned.

Speed, grouping, lethal kill.
Fun stuff.

Enjoy!!!!

I use Hornady XTP’s exclusively. The Powerbelts won’t cut it and blow apart even at slower speeds if they contact bone and the Barnes create too much of a wound channel with a lot of waste. Most all of the deer I hit with those XTPs drop on the spot.

Your Hornady Great Plains bullet, Nic, is good one in the side lock and will pile a deer up in a blink with the 80 grains you’ve shot them with. Any hotter, like the 90 grains you mention and you’ll maybe want to use a wool wad over the powder to prevent the lead from the bullet’s base from shedding.

Today’s group was: 80 grains Pyrodex RS below the 370 grain TC maxi-ball.

Same 2×2 square at 25 yards.

Can’t say it really shot better than the Hornady Great Plains but it loaded easier, even with alot of the bore butter melting off.

Shot #3 I called a flyer, I spilled a bit of the powder during the loading so..

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You get it tuned in. Takes time and a lot of trial loads.

Tom Sawvell wrote:

You get it tuned in. Takes time and a lot of trial loads.

And that’s the fun part of it. Definitely finding a ryrhym for loading it and doing everything the same every time.

Back in the early 1970’s when I got started in black powder we didn’t have a whole lot of options. Today it can be mind boggling. For a side-lock, the gun you have is basically identical to my single trigger Renegade except your gun is stainless and I’m pretty sure your gun is .50 caliber.

Its a darned nice gun for a side lock and a very dependable one at that. Just owning it is a great thing as these side locks are rapidly disappearing from shops unless you opt for very high-end guns on the internet market. The real beauty of the tradition style side lock is in the shooting….or should I say learning to develop a good load combination. In all of my former side locks I didn’t play with the patched balls but did work a lot with the maxi and mini style bullets of many different ilks and had a riot working my way thru the loads and lead to find one that was as good as it was going to get with that particular gun. While all I have in a side lock today is that Renegade I just acquired I still remember the fun I had shooting this style of gun so I know right where you’re at with it. Good times Nic, for certain. I enjoy reading as you work into the gun….keep posting. I love it.

Thanks, I’ll keep ya updated…next on the list will be the Traditions XTP by Hornady 240 grain saboted bullets. They shoot well in my other smoke pole so I’ll see how it does. The other one I’m really interested in is the 275 grain maxi-hunter.

One thing I’m finding interesting about muzzleloaders in my internet readins is that twist rates have completely different meanings than in centerfires. 1:66,1:48,1:28 all “slow” twists but yet in the 1:48 most people say that conicals which are often heavier shoot better and sabots which are often lighter shoot better in the 1:28 and “faster” muzzleloader twists. It’s seems backwards when in other rifle,like the .223, faster the twist means heavier bullets that can be accurate in it.

Do they ever, especially in the .45 cal guns and using the heavy, long, full-bore bullets in the 450 to 559 grain numbers which do well with 1:20 and 1:18 twists. Just a precaution….many of the break actions and drop action in-lines are not good candidates for the heavy, heavy lead even with straight black, pyro or T7 powders. Bolts and side hammers are fine with most powder/bullet combos except for the BH209 in side locks, but the accuracy comes in fast barrels, not the 1:48 or 1:60 common with the side locks. Long, real heavy bullets in guns with even a 1:28 twist can key-hole like crazy inside 100 yards even.

That 240 should move right out for you.

I just looked to confirm all the twists on all my bp rifles:

TC Grey Hawk with the 1:48
CVA Buckhorn Mag with 1:28
CVA Hunterbolt with the 1:32

I might be able to find one sabot combination for all of them. But I still think straight lead conical is the way I want to go in the grey hawk for the “traditional” feel but if a sabot combo delivers significantly better accuracy I’ll shoot it.

In a 1:48 keep the bullets fairly short, which will equate to lighter weight. I don’t think I’d do a saboted bullet over 250 grains personally. The other two will probably do their best at between 240 grains and 325 grains.

Well Tom you might be right, today I shot 80grains of Pyrodex RS behind the Traditions 240grain XTP Hunter, (Hornady XTP in a Traditions Sabot) and this is the results at 25yds the first shot was low but I spilled the powder pouring it in from the speed tube, the remaining 4 well that’s darn good for any rifle.

Black square is 2inx2in so I’ll make a small sight adjustment to the right and take it to 50yds

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Jeez I feel like a dinosaur. The old CVA .50 cal I built many years ago seems really out dated. 1 in 60 twist, I’ve only ever shot patched round balls out of it. Loaded with 90 gr. of FF it’s very accurate out to 50 yards, tearing one ragged hole in the center of the bull. At 100 yards it opens up to a 4 or 5 inch group. Great fun to shoot, and I put it together myself.

S.R.

Those 1-66 guns are fun to shoot and easy on the arm. Many, many deer have dropped from lead poisoning initiated by guns of this sort. I built a .45 CVA Hawken back in the early 70’s and shot three or four deer with it.

Seems it favors the sabot, but the right bullet/lube combination should still give good accuracy. Never had this specific model, but had lots of experience with their Hawken having the same twist rate. The Maxi-Ball shot very well in mine and had to be pre-fouled before hunting.

With that short sight radius and the factory irons, you would have to be an exceptional marksman to have guilt-edge killing accuracy much beyond 100yds. So, the super-fancy SST’s, PRB’s, Scorpion PT’s, Tipped MZs, etc are not required. A full diameter bullet that you can get to shoot well should thump anything within the range of your accuracy.

Maybe try the Powerbelt (normally not best out of the barrel size produced by T/C), Hornady FPB (these shoot well) and the Harvester Sabertooth with NO lube at all. Light spit patch clean between shots. Test in 5gr powder increments to see exactly what your rifle likes. You “should” be in the 90-110 grain range, generally. Stick to Goex 2F (very hard to get) or the Pyrodex Select for your sidelock. We always used Rem or CCI caps, but have no idea what is available. Good hot caps are a must. Clean the barrel dry and pre-foul before hunting.

If you want to get really gnats azz, carefully measure your powder by volume and then weigh it on an accurate grain scale. They will NOT be the same numerical value, so be advised. All corresponding charges are then weighed on the scale to meet the charge measured on your volumetric device. Then, pay attention to how tight you put that bullet on the powder charge.

Here’s the best target that I have found for ML load testing at 50yds. Take a 6 o’clock hold as you would for any target shooting to get the best finite sight picture. I use white/black labels to reuse targets over and over.