Muzzeloader Newbie Questions

I recently purchased a Thompson Center Pro Hunter FX .50 cal muzzleloader. I also added a Vortex 3.5×10 scope to the package. To be up front this is the first time I have ever owned a muzzleloader. I have done a lot of research on accessories, cleaning, loads etc. This past weekend I put about 20 rounds through the gun and am having trouble getting tight groups at 100 yds (3-5″). Just wondering what I can do to tighten up the pattern. Maybe my expectations are too high. Just want to make responsible shots as I’ve heard of individuals shooting up to 200yds plus with consistency. I don’t expect to shoot that far but feel this gun should be capable of that. I was shooting from a lead sled using Federal 209 primer, T/C Shockwave 250 grain sabot and 100gr of Pyrodex pellets. I cleaned the gun between every three shots. I started out with Power Belt bullets but switched over to the Shockwaves and found more consistency. Any help would be appreciated.

If it were me I’d dump the Pyrodex and get the BH209 powder. Then I’d dump the shockwaves and sabots that come with them and pick up some XTP bullets in both .44 and .45 cal, 240 and 300 grain in the .44 cal and 250 and non mag 300 grain in the .45 cal. I’d get some Harvester sabots in both the green and green crush ribs for the .44 al bullets and black and black crush ribs ribs for the .45 cal bullets. As long as your spent primers come out clean and you’re not having to deal with a dirty action after shooting the federal primers will work fine. Winchester shotshell reloading primers are the longest primers and also one of the hottest primers you can use should you have blowback issues that leave the breech area dirty.

The 209 powder will max charge at 120 grains by volume measure. Most people find the accuracy sweet spot between q100 and 110 grains of the 209 powder by volume measure. The different bullets and sabots in differing combinations per caliber will help in finding what holds together the best. You should be able to put together a combination that delivers 1″ or less/5 shots at 100 yards, the 2-3″ at 200.

With the 209 powder cleaning between every 2-4 shots is a moot issue. 20 to 40 shots on the dirty barrel is common with zero loss of accuracy and no loading issues As carbon builds up in the flame channel accuracy goes downhill some….you’ll know when the plug needs cleaning. You will need to pull the plug every 15 shots or so and clean the flame channel behind the primer pocket with a small drill bit and run a soft thin copper wire thru the flame hole in the powder end of the plug.

Allowing the barrel to cool well between shots is another thing that is almost a must. Real warm to hot barrels from rapid repeat shots will mess with your ability to get decent accuracy.

Those Shockwave bullets come with issues on a couple fronts and accuracy is one of them. The XTP’s are a super accurate bullet and have excellent terminal results on deer and elk. The 209 powder has a far more energy than a same sized charge of Pyrodex either pellet or powder. T7 pellets and powders create a crud ring that makes repeat shots very difficult to load without running a damp patch down the pipe between each shot. Both Pyrodex and T7 products are susceptible to moisture degradation. The 209 powder is unaffected by moisture.

You’ve got a great gun but you’re using second rate goodies to try and achieve what the gun is capable of. You have to play with bullet diameters and weights and sabot choices to make loading consistent and reliable, hence all the goodies in that department. The powder along will put you wayyyyy out in front of the game.

Once you get dialed in a little you can look at other bullet choices. I can shoot the XTPs, Deep Curls and A-Frames of like weights and calibers with the same 110 grain charge into the same point of impact. I can shoot slightly lighter Barnes copper bullets with the 110 grain charge into 1 clover-leaf hole at 100 yards. I can shoot three shots into less than an inch at 50 yards with my 50 cal inline pistol using Barnes bullets. The accuracy is out there but you have to be willing to step away from combo stuff sold at the stores and those messy smoking substitute powders and step up to the BH209 powder.

I saw this post last night and figured Tom would respond as his knowledge far surpasses mine. On Tom’s suggestion I switched to the 300gr XTP’s (in 44 Cal though) from the 45 Cal 240 xtp’s. In both my CVA Accura and TC impact I can put two slugs through the same hole at 50 yards using the green crushed rib sabot and 70 weighed grains (100 by vol.)(Blackhorn, I won’t shoot anything but in any MZ that can use it). I plan to do more long range tinkering this winter, but even the 240 grain with 80 vol. grains I was shooting 2″ or less groups at 100 on average.
This fall was my first year using those 300’s in the woods, shot my buck at 80 yards give or take and hit exactly where I aimed and the slug blew right through the deer (dead center heart shot quartering away).
The 240 grains worked well also, took 4 deer with those behind 80 vol. Grains of BH from 12 to 75 yard shots, but the 300’s do group tighter, the crushed rib are a higher quality sabot than the ones that came in the pre packages packs I was buying, and it’s cheaper to ‘build’ your own over those pre packages things also.

gonehunting wrote:

Just want to make responsible shots as I’ve heard of individuals shooting up to 200yds plus with consistency. I don’t expect to shoot that far but feel this gun should be capable of that.

The gun is fully capable of the accurate 200 yard shots, but you need to be mindful that at 200 yards there’ll be a big difference between paper punching and a deer. At 200 yards lighter bullets, those at and under 240 grains, may not retain enough energy to expand as they’re designed to do unless you’re really pushing them along with a stout charge and even then the likelihood that they’ll just pencil thru the animal with little damage to create a good blood trail should they run is very high Without proper bullet expansion, even a solid heart shot can leave a mighty poor blood trail. A 250 grain, or that 300 grain that poomook uses, will more than handily retain the energy needed at that range to get the expansion needed on an animal when run along by a 100 grain volumetric charge or greater. You find that when punching paper the heavier bullets will also buck the wind better. Too many people get caught up in the velocity thing thinking that velocity equates directly to dead animals. At 200 yards, not so.

I shoot an inordinate amount all year long with my muzzies. I go thru 4-6 of the containers of bh209 powder a year and more than a box or two of bullets and all of this shooting is done using the hunting loads I have developed. While I seldom have to shoot as far as 75 yards I know where my guns shoot under the 100 yards that they’re sighted at and I also know where they shoot at out to 150 yards on the off chance of a long shot and that happened this year and the practice paid a dividend. Muzzleloaders are a balancing act and the further you get for pre-packaged bullets and the dirty sub powders to better you’ll be able to get things on track.

While I agree with the vast majority of what Tom writes, I am not hugely concerned that a “bullet will …”pencil thru the animal with little damage…” A .30 caliber bullet from a centerfire rifle has to mushroom 50% to make the same wound channel as does a .45 caliber bullet from a muzzleloader (or shotgun). Granted the centerfire bullet will arrive with more energy than does the muzzleloader bullet.

Regarding your concern about making responsible shots and Tom’s extensive practice, I won’t take a shot past 100 yards unless the animal is broadside and standing still. That is a measure of my capabilities, not that of the muzzleloader rifle.

I took Tom’s advise and switched to BH209 and XTP bullets. My groups are now the best they have ever been. Pyrodex is by the worst of the powder choices out there. The loose BH209 is by far the way to go ( I’ve tried all the powder choices out there ) It is by far the easiest to clean up and you don’t have to clean between shots like you do with some of the other brands. The Harvester Sabots are not easy to find in retail stores. You will most likely need to find these online someplace. I plan to get a order in for some of them prior to next black powder season for sure. My Xtp’s shoot well with the Black sabots that are sold to use with the XTP bullets ( I’m sure the Harvester will work even better )

Brad Dimond wrote:

While I agree with the vast majority of what Tom writes, I am not hugely concerned that a “bullet will …”pencil thru the animal with little damage…”

The .45 Cal bullet may not Pencil Thru a animal but there are lots of Muzzleloader bullets that will not expand much or any at all. I know of more than a few hunters who made decent shot placement on deer and the deer left little to no blood trail and traveled a fair distance before dying.

One more thing to keep in mind in regards to the accuracy of the gun is that most guns tend to group better after a break in period. A brand new gun almost never groups as well new as it does after a few hundred rounds are shot thru it. With how little range time and hunting time a muzzleloader gets it may take several seasons for the gun to begin to shoot its best groups.

Brad Dimond wrote:

Regarding your concern about making responsible shots and Tom’s extensive practice, I won’t take a shot past 100 yards unless the animal is broadside and standing still. That is a measure of my capabilities, not that of the muzzleloader rifle.

About 75% of my kills in the last ten years have been at under 25 yards. One deer this year was taken at about 165 yards, standing dead still, totally broadside. This deer would be the anomaly for me. And like this deer, I only pull the trigger on a standing deer that also offers a near or total broadside target.

I shoot so I know I can. Taking the long shot is not my norm, much preferring a nice close up shot. And making sure the bullets I shoot will expand and function as they’re supposed to is all part of taking a responsible shot.

Tom –

One more reason to shoot is that it is fun! Lots of fun!!

I love the muzzies and the smell of the smoke and the fun of the challenge they offer. Everyone has a “limit” where they know its no practical to take the shot. I have total confidence of my guns and myself inside this limit but the limit is not where the bulk of my shooting takes place. My rifles see the 100 yard range and while the pistol is dead nuts at 50 I shoot it more at 25 yards than any distance , but I do sling a round or two at the fifty to stay “on” at that distance.

You are right Brad….they’re fun to shoot.

They def. are fun to shoot. I carry my CVA in WI rifle season almost all the time now too, confidence with it is huge, but I’ve noticed those XTP’s don’t damage anywhere near the amount of meat my .270 will given the same shot placement. All my set ups in WI are basically modified bow sets so no long range shooting there either, my last deer in WI gun season I shot with the CVA at about 12 yards.

Helps the rest of the family know when I shoot too as I’m the only one out there that sounds like I’m shooting a ‘cannon’ compared to all the modern rifles.

Thanks everyone for the replies. I will try some of the suggestions given. You can read so many things on the internet. I appreciate the knowledge on this topic.

gonehunting wrote:

Thanks everyone for the replies. I will try some of the suggestions given. You can read so many things on the internet. I appreciate the knowledge on this topic.

Before you change anything with the ammo and powder, start with the gun.

Did you lap the scope rings and torque the mount/rings to the factory specs?

Start out with a solid “foundation” before building loads.

Don’t want to hyjack the post but I have a cva optima and wanting to switch to the blackhorn 209 from pyrodex pellets. Do I need to switch breech plugs for that powder? It’s a pre 2010 gun without the new style breech plug.

I know one problem with my older Thompson is that with pellets the first shot through a clean barrel tends to be a flyer. I now use loose powder.

Josh….

Yup, you’ll need to up-grade to a different plug. I’m not certain that the old style plugs are very available so blackhorn may or may not be in your future. One suggestion is to have the current plug modified to accept vent liners. These will wear much longer than the metal in factory breech plugs and cost about $5.00 apiece to replace. A factory plug will burn out the flamehole with 209 powder and accuracy will go right down the tubes within a couple/three hundred shots. Then a new plug will be in order. The vent liners will last 500 to 700 shots with the 209 powder and cost little in comparison to replace and the return to accuracy is immediate.

I’d contact http://www.badgerridgeind.com and inquire about the conversion. They are a small, family owned business that can do the conversion and the vent liners will cost $22.00 for a package of 4 and they’ll come with the allen wrench needed to install and remove them. I get my vent liners from them. The conversion is the absolute best option for you, hands down.

A converted breech plug will give you absolute ignition in any weather or temperature. They’ll extend the service life of a breech plug to indefinitely and the liners are easy to obtain. I have three guns converted to the vent liners and each have about 300 hundred shots thru them and none of the liners are remotely close to being to the replacement stage and my loads are near max on all of these guns.

Tornado chaser has also brought up a valid thought and a good one at that. When I mount my scopes, or open sights for that matter, the first thing I do is clean the mounting holes on all pieces, including those on the gun, with denatured alcohol and allow to dry well. I mount the bases first , applying a thin film of blue Loctite to the threads and torque the screws down. Next I LokTite the threads on the ring mount screws and anchor the ring bases securely to the mounting bases. Do a dry run first to establish the proper eye relief distance by setting the scope in the ring bases and sliding the scope back and forth to be sure you have adjustment room. Now tighten the ring bases securely. Next I mount the scope with the top halves of the rings and get the eye relief where it needs to be as well as making certain that the crosshairs are level to the bore.. set your ring screws somewhat form so nothing can shift. Then go back and one at a time remove the clamp screws, apply the blue LokTite and snug the screws up. I alternate tightening the screws between the front and back rings and if more than one screw is sued on each side of a clamp I alternate between them when tightening. I constantly check the level of the crosshair while doing this until all screws have been sufficiently tightened. Blue LokTite is “firm” setting but will allow screws to be removed or loosened if needed. DON”T use the red LocTite. You’ll need a torch to remove the screws.

All….I weigh all my BH209 charges on an electronic or balance beam scale just to eliminate any heavy or light loads that can occur using a volume measure. I just like removing charge weight variations for my over-all equation. Realistically though, the slight differences between charges poured in volume measures will only amount to maybe a difference of 5-7 fps and won’t be an issue with accuracy. As many people weigh their loads as those who pour them so whatever trips your trigger.

And I’ll take a second to re-affirm the need to clean the flame channel, that tunnel immediately behind the primer pocket, after 15 to 20 shots regardless of what brand of gun you shoot or what powder you’re burning. This channel will carbon up from the primers, not the powder. This channel can become so impacted that it can literally cut off ignition. My converted plugs take a 5/32 drill bit to ream the carbon out using the bit between thumb and fore-finger to twist it. Other brans of plugs had different hole sizes so take the plug to the garge and start running drill bits into it by hand until you find the snuggest fitting that still allows full depth penetration into the channel….go buy a couple spares and put one in your field kit and the other in your range kit so no matter where you’re at you’ll have one. Also, different primer brands will carbon things up faster than others. I use Winchester 209 Shotshell reloading primers because they are the longest and seal up the best and because they are one of the hottest primers. With the BH209 powder, DO NOT use any primer designated as a “muzzleloader” primer as they are too cool and will not effectively and reliably ignite the 209 powder. CCI makes a great primer and they can be gotten in a “magnum” version for more heat delivery to the powder.

Tom I know your thoughts on pyrodex. What do you think of Triple 7? I’d like to stick with pellets, just for easy loading and no measuring. Also what are your thoughts on Hornadays SST low drag sabots? Thanks

I’m not a fan of T7 in any form where any type of 209 primer is involved with the ignition. Crud rings develop that can hinder loading for second shots and be all but impossible for third shots without running a damp patch followed by a dry patch down the bore before loading the second shot. In general I don’t feel there’s anything to gain by using pellets of any brand or the t7 powder of Pyrodex. I use Bh209 exclusively. If I had to pick an alternative to BH209 it would be T7 granulated. I’d use a volumetric measure for charging. I’d do as I do with the 209 powder and measure all of the charges at home and put them in charge tubes to carry to the range and in the field hunting. Loading afield is simplified this way.

On the bullets, I generally prefer not to shoot any bullet with the plastic or ballistic tips. They either have too thin of jackets or too thick of jackets and expansion issues arise with them too often. While I switched to Barnes coppers this last seson with great success I have zero issues in recommending the XTPs or Deep Curls for deer hunting. Swift A Frames are another very good in-line bullet.

I bought a set of these on Amazon for target shooting, a pack of 25 was 7 bucks or something like that. For hunting I had some “speed load” ones already I used for taking charges hunting, I’m not sure I’d want these tubes pictures out in the field with me as they are not as rugged.

I’ve only ever used loose powder so it’s never seemed like am issue to me. The ability to fine tune your charge IMO far outweighs the convience, you’d be surprised the difference 10 grains can make in your groups.

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Thanks for the info.

Red eye….here’s a picture of the box I use to carry and store my “Lanes Tubes” to the range. I weigh each charge and then it goes right into one of these tubes. I have the weighed charge size written on the tops. The boxes are MTM-Case-Gard boxes, model # S-25-12D. Look for them at cabelas or on their website, http://www.mtmcase-gard.com . This box fits 12 gauge shot shells to 3″ but also has a liner for 20 gauge shells that the lanes tubes fit into perfectly. I have two of these boxes for the two charge weights I might be carrying. These boxes are the cats meow on the rifle range.

The Lanes Tubes I use can be gotten on the internet and are a super bargain. I buy the small tubes that hold exactly 120 grains by volume of the bh209 powder. The filled tube in the picture and those in the box all have 77 weighed grains of the powder, or 110 grains by volume. The longer tubes will hold 3 black sabots, each holding a bullet up to 300 grains. Green sabots and bullets of course fit fine. They don’t make any noise in the pocket out in the woods. An extra short tube carries some spare primers.

Here’s the link for the tubes: https://www.ebay.com/itm/25-Blackhorn209-Black-Powder-Compatible-Charge-Tubes-Muzzleloader-Vial-Lanes-/181609219363

On any plastic tube you may use, give the inside a wipe with a new, crushed up, laundry dryer sheet. Push the sheet into the tube clear to the bottom, then using a forceps twist the sheet in the tube then pull it out. This will cut the static that the new tubes will be full of and powder will not slip right out when you pour it into the barrel and not leave any in the tube.

There is some excellent information in this thread. I’m going to try out some different XTP’s and the Harvester sabots in my TC Encore and Impact. Will I need to change out my breech plugs if I start shooting the BH 209? I bought the impact new last year and I just bought the Encore used this year. The Encore doesn’t have the speed breech but rather the regular breech. The gun is probably 8 to 10 years old. Any info on if my existing breech plugs will work with BH 209 would be appreciated. Thanks.

Both guns should be BH209 ready. For certain the Impact is. From experience I can tell you that the Impact will do real well with a charge of 110 grains by volume under a green crush rib harvester sabot and a 300 grain, .44 cal XTP…. maybe a little bucky with recoil but super accurate. That Encore will work fine with that same load. Use Winchester [blue box] shotshell primers with the 209 powder.

Also Mille-Lacs-guy, here’s a link to the blackhorn website.

http://www.blackhorn209.com/load-data/

Click on the “muzzleloader rifles” load data to get to some really helpful info on charge weights and various [many] bullets/bullet weights and velocities rendered per each bullet. If you back out to the blackhorn main page[ http://www.blackhorn209.com] you’ll find lots of info on the powder. Contrary to what some believe, that 10 ounce jug of 209 powder is way more economical than T7 pellets and granulated powders and much more efficient than any Pyrodex powder.

Thanks for the information. I ordered a box of XTP in 44 caliber 300 grain and also the green Harvest Sabots. I’m looking forward to trying this combo out with the Blackhorn 209.

Mille-Lacs-guy…..start out at 90 grains by volume-assuming you measure your powder by volume-and do 10 grain increases. Maybe five shots at each charge change. If you need to, do 5 grain increases to find the sweet spot but in both guns I think you’ll find it somewhere very close to the 110 grains by weight with the bullet/sabot combo.

Every deer I have shot with this load and bullet/sabot has dropped on the spot. If I do my part well I can get sub one inch groups at 100 yards with this load in my Accura and have also done so with an Impact. I have also shot the same sabot/bullet combo in front of 63 weighed grains of the bh209 powder [90 grains by volume] in my Optima pistol with unreal accuracy at 50 yards but the recoil in the pistol at this load level is a palm bruiser after five shots and the gun can get a little too close to the bean during recoil. That 300 grain .44 cal XTP is just a super bullet. The 240 grain .44 cal XTP and the 250 grain .45 cal XTP are both equally as impressive in long guns on paper and on deer so you may want to check into these bullets as well during the off season. And the bullets are cheap.

Also, with the 209 powder it is very important to allow the barrel to cool a bit between shooting and loading….5-6 minutes between shots. Don’t hurry yourself.