“March 6, 2023 at 7:55 am#2186431
Education trending down in the USA = Social media”
Cannot be overstated for this problem and all the others. Kids dont have to work for anything. For friends, for information, nothing. They dont have to stand up and walk or look around the corner or over the rise for anything. Its all right there in their hand and its drastically changing society. I would say for the worse but I dont know what the big picture has in store.
I dont remember the last time one of my kids actually had homework. I know they get time during the day and maybe they are just that efficient, but that just boggles my mind. They all get excellent grades and actually test extremely well on the standardized tests so I guess I shouldnt complain or worry though.
Icefanatic- THANK YOU for showing up every day!! While I rail on our current education system I KNOW it is FILLED with individuals like you who give me hope that maybe we can turn it around.
The attrition rates of new teachers are staggering. You are correct on your approach and assumptions – IMO
Many good points in this thread and most all point to a changed society and family lifestyle. There are generalities to be gleaned for sure but I know of just as many Somali parents and Latino parents who have the same issues most of us here do so to “villianize” newly arrived people is not always accurate. However, it is accurate as well. Too many resources aimed at non-english speakers, food/housing insecurity plaguing students whose mind is not on learning but on where their next meal is coming from or sleeping on a blanket on the floor and not a bed ( you would be astounded to know how many students face this)
The only way to really get a visual, from my way of thinking, is the classic – a man putting his finger in a hole in the dike, more holes keep popping open and pretty soon he looks like someone playing TWISTER and has no more appendages to fill the holes/needs. Holes= economy, equity education, immigrants, new standards, social media…..
I can get behind running food programs for kids ( I sent home 1,000 bags of food EVERY week for kids preschool to 8th graders during the school year and set up distribution points in the summer. My dept. did the fundraising for these programs as well. I am NOT what you would call a liberal but that has nothing to do with children needing to eat.
There are MASSIVE problems with our education system – from the “education” they are receiving at home to the services they are expecting from our schools.
I don’t have all the answers and wish I did, I merely helped where I saw need. After 34 years of watching it I was just overcome and gave up. Fleeing (open enrolling) to another district, paying for private school or a magnet school are short term answers and do not always provide what you are looking for. Some form of overhaul is needed – this is the greatest resource we have that we CAN HAVE A POSITIVE IMPACT upon for the future of this country.
There is an old saying that the course of civilization is a race between catastrophe and education. In a democracy such as ours, we must make sure that education wins the race
John F. Kennedy (35th president of the United States – assassinated in 1963 after 2 years in office)
“Education is one of the few things a person is willing to pay for and not get.
William Lowe Bryan” (president, Indiana University, late 19th century)
This problem will only continue to get worse. Teachers are already low paid, pair that with harassment from parents that don’t condone their teaching methods, or are sure that there is a conspiracy to waste their tax dollars, and total lack of ethical respect for the profession and new/qualified teachers will be hard to find. The parents that need to step up are generally ignorant of the fact they are not smart enough to teach their children anything useful. And then it will all circle back around to be the gubments fault. Luckily Youtube does an excellent job of filling the void.
Teachers are low paid to a point, but if they take continuing education they can get paid exceptionally well. My wife is nearing 6 figures, but she has a lot of degrees and debt because of it, but she is about maxed out with her lane changes now and even gets a bonus each fall that is just shy of 10k plus an average annual bump each year. She makes dang good money, but has really had to work for it. SHe does summer school and makes like 8K for just a couple weeks.
My guess is if you ask most teachers if they would prefer more $ or more respect from Kids and parents, they would say more respect. Those that say more $ probably should not be a teacher. I’m not saying teachers don’t deserve more $. I tell my teacher friends that they could not pay me enough $ to be a teacher. I most likely would end up in jail if I was a teacher 
Teachers are low paid to a point, but if they take continuing education they can get paid exceptionally well.
My Father retired from full time math/stats HS teaching about 10 years ago and still does an occasional sub day when he feels like it. He was nearing that salary at his retirement but he also had a Masters that he acquired to bump his salary.
He never worked summers, ever, lol. He always said that the three best perks of being a teacher were June, July, and August.
As a father of 3 school age kids in middle school and high school I have seen good teachers and bad teachers just like good students and bad students. My kids have a math teacher that if you don’t do the problem the way she showed but still get the right answer by showing your work it’s marked incorrect. Or the principal said(even put it in his newsletter)kids will have 90 a day in study hall to do schoolwork so they shouldn’t have homework but then the teachers make them do other things and when you ask the principal about it he just makes up excuses. Even had a student kicked out of study hall for doing their schoolwork and not what the teacher assigned during that time.
My wife and I have spent countless hours helping our kids with schoolwork but it’s been 20+ years since we graduated high school and things are very different than when we were in school and like I mentioned some teachers want things done their way and we were taught a different way so it can be a struggle.
I’m not knocking teachers as my mom is a retired teacher of 39years but even she has commented on how things have changed and she used to help with kindergarten screenings but was fired for not just going along with what she was told and told parents that their kids were behind where they should be and some parents didn’t like that. She was later called back to screen again but told them no as she had enough and realized it wasn’t about helping the kids but just going through the motions set in place by the education system. In my opinion most the problems stem from management and the teachers are just doing what they are told and get very little support all around at least in my local districts that seems to be how it is.
The problem is our Burger King society where everybody wants everything served to them instantly and exactly the way they ordered it. They want to make up the cause for things in their own minds and then no amount of reality will change their view. They have decided what the problem is and that’s that.
There is a huge shortage of teachers and school administrators entering the profession and why wouldn’t there be? Entry salaries are terrible and you have political candidates calling education funding “a black hole”, so that doesn’t bode well for the future prospects now does it?
I love people implying that teachers should just tough it out until they’ve got X or whatever years under their belts and then the pay gets better. I gotta ask, what the heck guys? Young people these days with the cost of college are painfully, acutely aware of the starting pay prospects, so who the heck would want to be a teacher knowing that they can 2X or 3X the starting salary by picking from a very, very long list of other, higher-paying professions? Anyone smart enough to get a teaching degree is going to be smart enough to know that it doesn’t pay squat.
Too many resources aimed at non-english speakers, food/housing insecurity plaguing students whose mind is not on learning but on where their next meal is coming from or sleeping on a blanket on the floor and not a bed ( you would be astounded to know how many students face this)
There are constant calls for the schools to stop acting as “social welfare institutions” and “get back to education”. Usually, these are coming from the same people who are posting on social media that it is ridiculous that Mcdonald’s and Amazon workers are demanding to be paid an above-poverty wage.
It astonishes me that people out there STILL believe that the poor are mostly jobless, skid row bums that are simply too “lazy” to work. Because if they did actually work, everything would be just peachy.
Mrs Grouse and I support a St. Paul charity that runs a “free store” that distributes clothing and household items to people in need.
The organization does a “shopper survey” every year. Over 80% of the people that are in need of free clothing are employed and work between 40 and 60 hours per week. Having spoken to people who shop at the free store, I will say that they are NOT who I believe most would think. They aren’t drunks, or drug addicts, or welfare queens, or illegals, or lazy white #####. The vast majority of them work low-paid service jobs that form the backbone of our society. Hospital laundry, cleaning, delivery driving, food services, etc. The reason they are poor is nothing to do with “willpower” or “motivation” and everything to do with being trapped in a cycle of needing ever-more-expensive housing, healthcare, and food in a society that loves them for their labor, but tells them that they aren’t worth a pay raise and instead they should “better themselves” and “earn it”.
And so kids from these families are in school and the teachers and administrators just need to suck it up and deal with them better because we have an “education problem”. Yeah.
Being a teacher myself I love reading all the comments. A lot of you are hitting a lot of nails on the head. It is not one big thing a lot of little things. Remember schools are in the business of education.
Do the best for your kids and make them push themselves. They will be unstoppable with the new generations.
TRA (teachers’ retirement) has also pushed people out, as it is currently 66 to retire with full benefits. For me, that would be 44 years of teaching. I did it to be home with my kids and help out kids like myself.
I have never not worked a summer. Construction every summer for me.
If I know now I would not be a teacher. I have a long list of things that should be changed but will just leave it at that.
The “answer” to the shortage of teachers so far has been to water down teacher education requirements. Many districts utilize the new tiered licensure areas to hire “Community Experts” who may be knowledgeable in the area but have never worked with kids in their lives. This can work out, or it can be a disaster that compounds the issues and will likely only further lower standardized test scores.
Teachers can make a good living as mentioned above. However, that may take 20 years to do. The cost of living and rapid inflation during years working their way up is overwhelming for many – hence lessened desire to enter the field. Can you blame anyone for NOT going into education right now? Labor market economics have now clearly shown for years that until teachers are paid more, shortages will occur and likely get worse.
I support paying teachers more while also ramping up the accountability. Make the teacher review process more involved, and have tenure be a more restrictive process. If you want “the best” you have to pay for “the best.” Instead of taking that money from taxpayers who are overstrained and often complain (myself included) – shift it away from administration. Administration expenses have swelled faster than any other area in education. The best teachers rely on administration for absolutely nothing. They manage classrooms and discipline issues themselves and are always available to parents regardless of administration’s role.
Being a teacher myself…
Question to the teachers out there.
Do you feel that a feeling of being left behind salary-wise is a major contributor to teachers leaving?
My cousin is a 15 year teacher in Oregon. She responded to a Facebook post last summer directed at teachers looking for summer work and she ended up working at a cosmetic surgery practice in their billing office. After 6 weeks the manager told her she was irreplaceable and said what would it take to make you stay here full time?
Jen made the mistake of throwing out a number that she thought was outrageous because it was a big, big raise and of course said also full family health/dental, plus a 10k signing bonus all in $20 bills. The office manager said no way, they can’t pay the 10k in cash, she’d have to take a check for that part.
Now she can’t stop thinking about it and I can’t imagine she is the only teacher who despite a love of teaching…
always appreciate your insight and knowledge on anything education related Bucky.
Question to the teachers out there.
Do you feel that the feeling of being left behind salary-wise is a major contributor to teachers leaving?
To put it into perspective I get paid 450 dollars less a month this year over last year. Our insurance rates spiked and our district is out of money. Bad management as we had a surplus for years. Our raise over the past two years was 0% and 1%.
Class size has gone up by 40% since I started and my class budget has gone down by 50%.
Honestly, if it were not for wanting to be home with my kids every night and them being young I would be gone.
Education trending down in the USA = Social media
You can add “Society” to the left side of that equation also!!
The downward trend on the standardized test scores is a two fold problem imo. One, and easily the biggest problem in education, is an ever increasing part of society that believes it is the schools responsibility to raise their children, rather than the parents. The second biggest problem is MN Dept of Ed and Education Minnesota (union) accepting that responsibility and pushing more onto our teachers, while also deeming standardized testing racist and prepping for the tests immoral and incorrect. Education MN is fine with worsening test scores, as it obviously (in their opinion) means more money is needed which not coincidentally means more money for the Union and their ever growing bloat.
And what exacerbates it is both DOE and EdMN have no limiting principle for correcting bad actors, be it schools, students, admin or teachers. If they did, the schools that have ZERO students proficient at grade level math would be dealt with, rather than continue on their race to the bottom. And it is not a money issue, as you can see in the spending per student at these schools averages over $20k (for reference Edina and Eden Prairie spend about $13k/student, Eastern Carver aka Chaska/Chan/Carver/Victoria is $12k/student).
http://www.americanexperiment.org/0-not-a-single-student-proficient-in-math-at-19-minnesota-schools/
My Mom was a teacher for 40+ years, starting at a catholic elementary making 8k/year (seriously) and ending 10ish years ago at a rural public school making over 70k. The issue with teacher pay, is the terrible starting salary, heavy financial cost (masters or more) to move up the pay scale, and the inability to get rid of bad tenured teachers (eating up budget with poor results).
Despite all of the significant issues in MN Public Education, we still have some of the finest schools, teachers and an overall system that stacks up quite well nationally and internationally. But we also need to keep working to maintain and improve that, and I do not think the existing bureaucracy (DOE/Union) is going to do so without some significant involvement of the society as a whole who still care.
<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Matthew Sandys wrote:</div>
Being a teacher myself…Question to the teachers out there.
Do you feel that a feeling of being left behind salary-wise is a major contributor to teachers leaving?
Some fantastic discourse within this thread and I think many of you as parents who have raised children have seen more than a few things change in the system that are for the best, and some that have made education more challenging.
Mr. Grouse, in response to you question is salary a contributor to teacher’s leaving, I will offer this anecdotal conversation that occurred this year between myself and my mentor who I work along side every day, a woman I idolize and respect as a person and as an educator. She’s just about to turn 55 this year, been teaching since she was age 25, which makes 30 years of service and in WI that means she is “fully vested” in the Wisconsin Pension Fund essentially. Her direct quote to me was, “I don’t need this anymore.”
She’s seen too much change in the behaviors of students, the requirements placed on teachers, partially due to testing (she teaches 8th grade math) so she bears the brunt of the attack when standardized test scores in Math, the most critical discipline in the eyes of most districts along with English, don’t reflect the nice numbers the admin would like to show to the public. All of that DESPITE, seeing significant growth in scores of her students year to year from the previous. So student A was at a score of 750 in seventh grade in math which is “basic” and improved to 980 as an 8th grader but they are still “basic.” But because she and her students don’t have the nice sexy “ideal” amount of proficient, advanced, and basic students, she gets torn down, and forced to take on new curriculum, because she failed. But her students improved dramatically… I digress.
So she can work some factory or service job for 10 years or less until she wants to retire, make the same amount if not more money, and not have to deal with the drama and stress of teaching and to her it’s worth it. I will miss her dearly but I do not blame her one bit.
One of my students was writing a argumentative essay the other day based on a random topic selected from a list of hundreds. Their job is to formulate a response examining the multiple sides and perspectives of their topic question and argue for some sort of resolution to it. The question they were given was teacher salary. And the student did an excellent job researching, thinking, and synthesizing information while explaining the pros and cons of keeping wages the same or increasing them. In their closing, they quoted a statistic from a news source, I forget which one, but the main idea of the stat was that the average salary of a “garbage man” was on par with the salary of a teacher starting out. Not trying to throw judgement toward anyone who makes their money, by all means, you are worth what someone is willing to pay you.
When I go to colleges to help with recruitment of educators from time to time, the number one question I get asked is, “is the stress and three months off, worth not being able to have financial flexibility in your middle years of life?” And my response is simple, what is your motivation? What is your why? Why are you considering teaching in the first place? If their motivation is money, I tell them flatly, no it probably isn’t worth it (I know great recruiter right), but hey your retirement pension could be pretty nice if you stick it out. But if they say well I want to make a difference, or help people, or I’m super passionate about my subject matter, I can tell them yes it’s worth it. Because that’s why I do it. Money was never my primary motivator to be an educator, as is also true for many colleagues in the education world.
I knew going in I wasn’t going to be rich, and I still am not, I work a bit in summer, but that time is my precious fishing time, I try not to work it all away in my youth. Yes there are days I still want to quit, but what type of job can you work where at some point you don’t feel like that? I feel like being happy every day with your job regardless of sector, and hours, and pay, and admin, you will have those sorts of days.
My passion and hope for opening young minds to the world of social studies is still incredibly strong. And not having any kids of my own at this point maybe this is my way of trying to pay it forward to society for now. If I’m not going to raise my own kids, perhaps I can help some other peoples children grow to become great people. So is pay a prohibitive factor impacting people leaving? I’d say maybe to that one, especially more experienced teachers who have reached the tops of the pay scale. For those people I think other factors like: respect, societal changes, testing, curriculum, parents etc., are bigger factors. But for the young, thinking about becoming teachers, salary is definitely a heavy, heavy factor that weighs upon them. Especially since as a younger person, that’s when you tend to have your biggest costs (loans, vehicles, houses, weddings, children) many don’t want to feel restricted in their life choices by having less money during those “younger years.”
My in-laws both retired from teaching in the 90’s. They started out making 13K and had to work every summer. They knew they were under paid, but also realized there was a great retirement program waiting for them at the end. The irony is they made more money in retirement than they ever did teaching. Unfortunately, that type of retirement isn’t there any more. It’s a tough decision to remain a teacher nowadays and I applaud those that do.
HS Science teacher here.
As some have said, I don’t think it’s necessarily the pay that is creating a lack of teachers. I have 15 years in with a Master’s, assistant coach a sport and make about $75k. Good benefits and done for the day at 3:30, etc. Obviously could make more in the private sector but can’t complain.
Obviously almost every profession it seems is experiencing shortages. I think teaching has become less attractive as kid behaviors have gotten weird and there’s almost nothing teachers can do to control those kids other than “build relationships,” whatever that means. I think supporting teachers once they are on the job would be a big boost as well. Most teachers are thrown into a classroom right out of college (speaking from experience), given a bunch of policies and “district visions” and “missions” and really given no help unless maybe their classroom is a total disaster after some time. I was observed twice a year for half an hour by my principal my first 3 years, the last ten years or so it’s maybe a 15 minute visit or two a year. Not that I want to be micromanaged, but I would be very appreciative of ideas and growth opportunities (not saying my principal could even provide that since his background is social studies, but a position dedicated to that would be good – we have 1 “instructional coach” who works with our staff of around 100 teachers, btw).
Most older teachers I know just get tired of not being able to “teach” when they go to work. I’ve heard many say “I wish we could just go back to having consequences for bad behavior” and “I’m tired of being a counselor, I want to teach” and “I want to be a teacher, not a social-emotional strategist.”
I’m pretty lucky in that I have mostly upper-level electives with mostly motivated students. I can’t imagine being an elementary teacher with the array of behavior and lack of skills they inherit.
This article was eye-opening, I went to UND and getting a job in a district like Grand Forks was a long shot, especially for elementary and social studies. Often heard there were 50-100 applications for those jobs. Now they’re having to go overseas to fill those jobs, crazy and honestly scary. I know we’ve seen this in our district as well, maybe 2 or 3 legitimate applications for most teaching jobs. https://www.grandforksherald.com/news/local/international-teachers-complete-their-journey-to-grand-forks
One paragraph in case there’s a paywall: “Lewis said the district pursued international teachers due to a lack of qualified domestic applicants in a number of subjects, including special education, middle school math and social studies, head start and first grade.”
@buckybadger mentioned more accountability for teachers and that the best teachers don’t require any help from admin. I don’t necessarily disagree, but that’s a tough one. The students we inherit are so dramatically varied, it’s often very hard to measure the teacher’s impact. Most students that struggle in school, in my experience, miss a lot of school or have incredibly messed up personal lives. So if I get a large number of those students and my test scores don’t look good, I’m a bad teacher? Just really hard to quantify all of the variables. I have one student this year I’ve kicked out of class 6 or 7 times for vulgar or disrespectful behavior. That’s probably more than my total for the other 15 years of my career. Should I not get a raise because of that? Again, not disagreeing on the accountability piece, it’s just so complicated. I do wish there were ways to get a raise other than just getting older or paying a university for more continuing ed credits…
There are just so many different things that people believe should determine how much someone should be paid. I hear some say:
Pay should be based on Education
Pay should be based on supply and demand
Pay should be based on years and experience
Pay should be based on Performance
Pay should be based on location
Personally I can see Truths and falsehoods in each. As far as teaching goes, I’d say I would list the top 3 as follows: Performance, Education, Supply and demand.
The biggest problem is that of the 3, the performance would be the hardest to determine.
Teachers are like any profession, there are some Great teachers and some not so Great teachers. Sadly from what I hear and see there are getting to be fewer and fewer Great teachers. For our children’s sake, I hope the education system can figure out why that is and get it fixed.
Many Thanks to all the great teachers out there who do what you do to try and give these children a great education despite all the hurdles you have to overcome !!!!
One other note…
So few people actually visit or step foot in schools yet have all the answers. This is true of parents, board members, community members, etc.
If possible don’t just show up once a year to a conference or to complain about a grade or instance that occurs or to discuss hot button topics at a board meeting. Those are important but also try showing up once in a while to eat lunch with your kid and their buddies. Attend the athletic events when they interest you with your child. Volunteer to supervise an open gym or the weight room. Check out the homecoming parades or pep fests. Sign your mother-in-law up to be a reading buddy to the little kids. Yes – everyone is too busy and nobody can ever get away from work blah blah blah. If you take the time to do a couple things like this…you will end up with a slightly better feeling of what goes on in your kid’s school.
As cheesy as it sounds, I’m looking forward to taking my 3 year old to her Pre-K orientation. There are NHS kids from grades 11-12 who are going to be there arranging activities with staff and promoting what the school does. As a parent, I received a personal call from the district inviting me to bring my daughter and then just sit back and watch. The teacher I spoke with said “you will leave with a smile – guaranteed.” This type of stuff somehow misses the constant news headlines, forums, editorials that are hell bent on bashing education in any way possible.
Here’s my worthless 2 cents from down in the basement. This old shop teacher doesn’t know much but I’ve seen a few things change and most for the worse. I guided, bartended, and sided houses in college and only had to borrow my last semester. I started at about 34g in 2003. After 5 years of being cut and rehired and shuffled around every year due to budget excuses I decided I was going to stick it out for some reason and lately I’ve really been wondering why. Honestly, at the time it was partly so I could continue guiding fishing trips in the summer. In 08 I took out a loan for my masters and did night classes for 2 years. Luckily a coworker with his masters degree waved his paycheck in my face every 2 weeks and rubbed it in that he did the same exact job as I did and got paid that much more. Even though I hated sitting in a traditional classroom that was motivation I tell ya! I worked 18 summers full time guiding out of state until I thought I could possibly afford to take the ‘summer off’ to be a full time sports shuttle driver and fishing guide for my two middle school aged kids.
I’m a fairly good bs’er but I’m not at a level of bs yet that I can make a woodworking lesson or welding lesson reflect how it connects with the students on a ‘social or emotional level’ nor can I bs a ‘cultural connection’ to either one to satisfy the paperwork gods looking down from above. Both are required on every formal lesson observation and supposed to be done with every lesson I teach. I’m not racist- I treat everyone the same with respect and high expectations for our work area . Show up on time, be safe, be a team player, work hard, put away your tools, clean up your mess, and use your time wisely and I won’t ride you hard all day like the kids that don’t do squat. It’s as simple as that.
It’s very hard to teach shop to students who are put in your class that don’t know any English at all. It’s not their fault just the position they are put in but there should be a better plan. It’s not fair to those kids or the kids in class who are slowed down by it. Many kids didn’t mature at all during the covid lockdown crap and it shows. Many came back with serious social and behavior issues. To me the behavior issues are reflective of criminals in society. They just keep getting a slap on the wrist and sent back to class and you see the same behavior problems for years with no growth. Just like the real world there are ‘laws on the books’ already but when people aren’t held accountable and there are no real consequences they just repeat offend. Each one of these classroom behaviors that are allowed to continue drastically slows down the pace of learning and all the kids there with an actual goal to learn suffer if you can’t remove the problem from class -which is what my goal is most of the time.
I have many many hours of contracted PD time dedicated to cultural book study sessions/meetings galore about the books that us taxpayers bought but yet no time dedicated to maintain, calibrate, lube, and fix machines or learn how to use new technology. Those needs aren’t recognized at all since my job is a little different than most. There are no maintenance guys or service schedule like real businesses. I might even get to buy something new every 10 years or so! Then you see installation and training get cut from the bids and you get to install it yourself, in the middle of the summer, and when the AC is turned off so when you come back at the end of the summer any part of the machine that wasn’t slathered in grease is solid rust. You hope it’s set up right and then spend evenings and weekends teaching yourself how to program and run a new CNC machine. This is a slow process by yourself. I usually love new technology but I miss the days when nothing was tied to a computer because I could fix and run every single thing by myself. Now, I need computer tech help almost daily because something is always giving me an error code.
Did I mention how much I hate Ipads? What a waste of money for a district. Just so kids all had them during covid as a pacifier. So yeah- most problem kids have less than 2 parents at home and if they do have 2 obviously not a lot of support on the value of education and have some very messed up home lives unfortunately. I personally invite all the problem kids/parents in for conferences and can’t drag them in. Then all the high-fliers that you don’t need to conference with want to come in and hear how great their kid is performing which is fine- at least they show up. IMO 90% of the crap on the internet could disappear and the world would be better for it. Not just kids- but way too much time wasted on just seeking ‘attention’ instead of doing something productive for society.
But, just look at that wonderful pension. I’d only have to go to 66 years old to collect without penalty. 
There’s no way I’d make it that long alive- not sure how much gas is left in the tank.
Sadly from what I hear and see there are getting to be fewer and fewer Great teachers. For our children’s sake, I hope the education system can figure out why that is and get it fixed.
IMO/E this really isn’t true. Far gone are the days of sit down and watch your teacher read out of the textbook. There are many, many dynamic teachers out there. Surely some are better than others and no teacher is going to be perfect for every kid that comes through their doors.
The results may not be increasing but I don’t think much of that can be directly blamed on teachers.
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