what bullet?

Ok Ive read some really good info on here from some of what I think are Experts on shooting and shooting info>> Ive seen some of randys videos!

Background on myseflf pertaining to this question.. Im a avid shooter! I have some nice guns and head out back and do a bunch of plinking anytime I get bored!

Ive only shot a couple big game animals in my life with a gun! (damn bow hunting addiction has gotten in the way)

anyway! on days with little to no wind a 10″ group at 600 yards is no problem! throw in a stiff cross wind and i have problems at them ranges!

Ok before ya tell me not to take a long range shot like this on a living animal Ill let ya know I have no plans of that! Ill be shooting my rem 7mm mag with a eliminater II scope.. any open shot out to say 350 yards will be taken!

my target will be moose.. I shoot alot of the winchester 140 gr. silver tips.. these things are crazy accurate… will these things be sufficiant for large game like moose out to that range?? will I get the penitration before the slug explodes?

Im a shooter and never realy got into the balistics that much! like I said Ive shot one deer with a muzzel loader and a caribou with my 7mm everything else has been with a bow.

looking forward to hearing from you guys!
Corey

I have not personally hunted an animal like a moose, but my buddies who do use a solid bullet and all shoot balistic tips for deer.
DT

They also use a heavy for caliber bullet. I believe that my buddy used a Federal trophy bonded for elk last year. I believe ir was a 160 or 170 grain bullet.
DT

The reputation of moose is that they are not exceptionally hard to bring down. I would note that this is not from personal experience, but rather the notion I’ve formed from reading and conversations with hunters and guides.

While I wouldn’t recommend it in the modern day, PLENTY of moose have been felled from the North Woods of Maine and all across the country using nothing more than the .30-30.

For years, the .270 was often referred to as the classic moose chambering because it combined enough hitting power with flat shooting properties. I say this to illustrate that certainly a 7MM is a perfectly capable moose caliber.

I don’t have any reasons why the Winchester Silvertips wouldn’t work for moose. A controlled expansion bullet of any flavor is going to do just fine on medium skinned big game like elk and moose.

Now we go from the objective to the subjective.

While it is fun to shoot at long ranges, I don’t think that kind of shooting can teach you much about what you need to know for this hunting situation.

First, I would say you are far better off being practicing situations you are likely to encounter in the field. Everything from 50-100 yard offhand or improvised rest shots to shooting off of shooting sticks at distances up to 300 or 350. Being rock-solid in these situations will bring much greater benefits than shooting extreme distances off of a bench because there aren’t many cement benches conveniently placed in the moose woods.

Very, very few people can reliably and consistently hit targets at >400, much less 600. I shoot thousands of rounds every year at targets and at p-dogs, and I can tell you that under realistic field conditions my chances of a first-shot hit at 400-500 yards on prairie dogs is about 1 in 6 or 7 on that sized game. Now I’m sure there are plenty of guys that can bring that all the way down to 1 in 3, but that is still not acceptable IMO when it comes to big game. It’s one thing to miss a prairie dog by 4-6 inches at 400 yards, it’s another thing to wound a big game animal at the same distance.

Back to bullets. My thought is this: Have you considered heavier bullets? While a lighter bullet like the 140 gives you a better trajectory at long ranges, that may not be very relevant for your hunt. I would personally start at the 150 or 160 range for moose-sized game.

I hunt whitetail with a 7 MM handgun (7-30 Waters) and even there, I’m using a 130 grain. So for moose, I’d step up as far as is practical.

If you’re using a outfitter I would ask what they recommend. It’s possible that they would recommend the lighter flatter shooting bullets, or they could say go for bullet mass as most of the shots in their type of hunting are at close quarters.

Just some thoughts, hope some of this is useful. Best of luck.

Grouse

Thanx for the input from both deertracker and grouse!

Ok grouse! If you were going on this moose hunt and using the 7mm would you use the 140 or 150gr. ballistic silvertips? or would you go with something else!

now keep in mind ive shot several other brands of shells including federal superX remington and hornady threw this gun and the silver tips are considerably better shooting threw my gun than any of the others!

thanx

e-mailed the outfitter..

this was his response

Bring a large grain bullet that will hold at least 70% of its core mass.

any suggestions based on this?

 

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Ok grouse! If you were going on this moose hunt and using the 7mm would you use the 140 or 150gr. ballistic silvertips? or would you go with something else!

now keep in mind ive shot several other brands of shells including federal superX remington and hornady threw this gun and the silver tips are considerably better shooting threw my gun than any of the others!

thanx

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Combining what you’ve tried with your outfitters advice, here’s what I’d try if it were me going on this moose hunt AND I was limited to factory ammo.

Obviously, first and foremost, it has to shoot well in your rifle. Since we’re not getting into what rifle, what barrel, what twist here, these are all “in theory” ideas.

First, your outfitter seems to indicate that on this hunt , more is more when it comes to bullet weight. So at the very least, I would try the 150 g Silvertips as a fist step.

Then, you say you’ve tried other BRANDS, but have you tried other LOADS with bullet weights over 140g?

Personally, in a 7MM class rifle I would start at the 160 grain loads like the Winchester Accubond CT and others in the 160 grain class.

Don’t get blinded by the bling of high tech, singing and dancing bullets. Remington’s CoreLokt bullet has been bringing down big game for decades. So has some of Winchester’s older offerings. Old bullet designs are often old because they have proved that they work. A lot of safari guys are using bullet designs that are a half century or more old.

I would say try the 150 gr Silvertips and pick 2 other loads in the 160 grain class to see how they work. Say one Winchester offing and one other.

After that, it’s all down to what seems to work.

But going back to my earlier point, REALISTIC PRACTICE IS KEY! Don’t get fixated on tiny benchrest groups. That’s load testing, not hunting practice.

Once you have your load, practice with it from REALISTIC shooting positions. Standing with improvised rest, shooting sticks (if you intend to use them), etc. Again, I think most hunters VASTLY underestimate how much practice it will take to become proficient in real-life shooting situations out to 300+ yards. Anyone can shoot a 1 inch group at 100 off of a cement bench with a stack of sandbags. Change to 100 yards resting against a tree and all bets are off. But you’ll find a lot more trees in the woods where the moose are.

As a hunter, IMO, you are far better off being well practiced with reasonably accurate ammo than you are being able to shoot micro-groups off a benchrest with tack-driving ammo.

Grouse

thanx for the reply grouse!

as you know these shells are fairly spendy! most are $35 and up for 20 rounds so just making sure I was thinking right and basically getting some confirmation is what I was after! I dont want to buy 20 different brands and loads but more looking and making sure I was spending my money on the right stuff and my time!

I grabbed me 3 boxes of shells today to give a field test in my gun!

I did go to a 150 gr. ballistic silvertip! Ive shot this load in my gun and it shoots very well! winchesters website did not list these for moose however!

so I grabbed a box of Federal premium vital shok and also a winchester superX CXP3,,

basically Im hoping one of the later two will shoot as good as the ballistic tips.. as far as other loads and shells that seem to be for large thick skinned game in the 7mm they are hard to find right now.

the method of practice for me is to sight in on the bench and compare how each will perform for accuracy.. then all of my shooting will be from off hand or off the bipod.. and like you said off a tree..

again thanx..
Corey

Yes, factory ammo costs ARE significant these days. No doubt about it.

But you have to compare that against the “opportunity cost” of a moose hunt. Which, for most of us at least, would be a relatively rare opportunity.

I was speaking to a guy at the gun club last fall and he was shooting a Weatherby mag in prep for elk. The shells were over $100 for 20.

However… As he rightly pointed out, he would spend about $700 on ammo to get ready and then $250 for two boxes to take with him. That total outlay would represent a relatively modest percent of the outlay for this hunt. With airfare, shipping costs to get the meat home, mounting of the head/antlers, etc, the hunt was almost certain to go over $10k.

Not to mention the fact that he wouldn’t be doing this hunt again for a long time, if ever.

I think you have plenty of selections to determine what is worth pursuing as far as the most viable load for this hunt. I should have pointed out earlier that I do, actually, think it’s possible to over-think this issue.

As I wrote earlier, PLENTY of moose have been felled with far less gun than you are using. So the difference between a 150 grain and a 160 grain is getting into hair-splitting territory.

For years, my go-to load for the .30-06 was a completely boring, been-in-production for decades, 180 grain spitz. BOARING!!! No ballistic tip, no bonded, no coated, no dancing, no singing, no talon-expansion, tax and license extra…

But the thing was, and still is, that in my old (and again completely boring) 740 Woodsman autoloader these things are tack drivers! No, really! I just used the word “tack driver and 740 Woodsman in the same sentence, which has never before been done on the interweb, but I’m not joking. They are that good.

So my point is find the right load and stay with it. Technically, I would agree that a 180 out of an 06 is more than is strictly necessary for deer. However, from 1985 to the early 2000s, I ruined the day of more than a few bucks with a regularity that, were I a deer, I would find very alarming. That load is just that good, so I’m not inclined to mess with it.

Good luck.

Grouse

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Ok Ive read some really good info on here from some of what I think are Experts on shooting and shooting info>> Ive seen some of randys videos!

Background on myseflf pertaining to this question.. Im a avid shooter! I have some nice guns and head out back and do a bunch of plinking anytime I get bored!

Ive only shot a couple big game animals in my life with a gun! (damn bow hunting addiction has gotten in the way)

anyway! on days with little to no wind a 10″ group at 600 yards is no problem! throw in a stiff cross wind and i have problems at them ranges!

Ok before ya tell me not to take a long range shot like this on a living animal Ill let ya know I have no plans of that! Ill be shooting my rem 7mm mag with a eliminater II scope.. any open shot out to say 350 yards will be taken!

my target will be moose.. I shoot alot of the winchester 140 gr. silver tips.. these things are crazy accurate… will these things be sufficiant for large game like moose out to that range?? will I get the penitration before the slug explodes?

Im a shooter and never realy got into the balistics that much! like I said Ive shot one deer with a muzzel loader and a caribou with my 7mm everything else has been with a bow.

looking forward to hearing from you guys!
Corey

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I would not use such a light bullet on a moose. I am thinking a 160 grain (minimum) Swift A-Frame. I prefer the 175 grain Swift A-Frame for your hunt. Maybe the Speer Grand Slam 175 grain.

 

Quote:

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e-mailed the outfitter..

this was his response

Bring a large grain bullet that will hold at least 70% of its core mass.

any suggestions based on this?

---

BARNES BULLETS The bullet in the pic was recovered from a deer. Shot in the neck below the chin. Bullet passed through the vertebra, exited the back of the neck and re-entered the backbone and went down almost to the pelvic. Crushed a heck of a lot of bone. I don’t remember what it weighed now, but it was like 95% or more retention. . Some of the other ones we recoverd (very few) were all near 99% of original weight.
Friends that take moose frequently all hunt 270, 30-06, 270 WSM, and & 7 mags. All will kill a moose effectively.

I shoot Barnes in every caliber I own. The best advise i can give on weight is to be on the heavier side of the sweet spot. As an example, Both my 270 and 270 WSM like the mid-weight bullets ranging 110 to 150. My A-bolt 270 I have loaded with 130 grain TSX for two reasons. One, that gun loves’m – Two – They give me the best groups that I could develop for it out to about 600yrds. They get pushed around a bit by the wind, so we really had to shoot a lot to learn the limitations. My 270WSM equally likes the 130’s and 140’s. So i went 140’s to have that little extra weight to offset the wind a little. 10 grn made enough of a difference at 400 yrds in a 28 mph cross wind, that it was a no brainer.
We had some eailer discussions about bullets following the gun deer season that I think are under the shooting bench forum. if you have some time, i would read back through some of them.
As for ballistcs and long range, Jeff Hegg I think is our resident expert. That is who I turn to when I need help

 

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I would not use such a light bullet on a moose. I am thinking a 160 grain (minimum) Swift A-Frame. I prefer the 175 grain Swift A-Frame for your hunt. Maybe the Speer Grand Slam 175 grain.

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My read of the OP’s situation is that he’s confined to factory ammo. Are A-Frame bullets available in any factory loadings right now?

One of the problems with the 7 MM is that there is so much focus on deer-sized bullets in the 140 to 150 class. Heavier bullet loads are much harder to find, especially on the store shelves as factory loads.

Grouse

Yes, looks like Remington offers A-Frame in factory.
http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/centerfire/premier-a-frame/premier-a-frame.aspx

140 barnes triple shocks pushed fast and dont look back. They flat out kill and perform consistently every time.

i say 140’s because with barnes or other monolithic bullets speed is your friend for proper expansion, and their exceptional weight retention. Example – you shoot a 160 grain cup and core lead bullet, you could expect to end up with 100-120 grains after its done its thing on an animal. Shoot a monolithic bullet of 140 grains and you end up with 138-140 grain bullet.

I ended up going with the nosler partitions.. found a few boxes at cabelas in the 175gr. run a box threw at the range and these thing flew great.. 200 yards shooting off the bench with bags i was nearly punching threw the same holes.. group of 5 all touching each other.. slightly better than my silver tips..

anyway results were amazing.. I shot my moose at 405 yards he was quartering slightly twards me. I punched him threw his front shoulder compleatly shatering his front shoulder. and had a small tennisball sized exit just behind his opiste shoulder.. when we gutted him his heart and lungs were compleate mush..

thanx for all you feed back on this! I shot every round threw my gun mentioned here before my hunt. I spent a lot of time at the range finding what my gun liked best!

Corey

Great follow up.

Time and money spent on the range is never time/money wasted. You did the prep, you paid the price, you got the result.
The Nosler Partition is a great design. There might be newer, but few hit harder.

I jumped on the Nosler Partition bandwagon when they first came out, but what I found out was that for deer, they were too much of a good thing. They certainly delivered in the knockdown department! I shot 1 buck in particular that I recall fell as if he were a wooden silhouette. He just tipped over sideways.

The problem was that anything but a straight through rib shot on deer was that the meat damage was horrific. The shot I just mentioned was quartering away and I got him in the right ribs, but the bullet passed forward and hit the back of the left shoulder. Inside the deer it looked like I had shot him with a cannon. I might have hit a rib on the way in and it just exploded. The bullet was intact but the shock and bone frags ruined 30% of the deer.

For elk and moose they would be terrific though. I might try some of the newer designs that I’ve come to like as well, but the Partition is still on the list.

Grouse

I’d load up some 160 grain Nosler Partitions and not worry about it. You could go with 175s as well, but my 7mm likes 160 grain bullets. Try out the Barne’s bullets as well.