Mille Lacs BS

Upnorth85 wrote:

If I thought you were genuinely interested in answers to those questions I’d gladly provide answers.

I am genuinely curious, and I think most average anglers are as well. Don’t misconstrue difficult questions with an argument. These are significant questions most of us have wondered for a long time, and this is the closest someone has come to attempting to answer them, so I am very grateful for the discussion.

2,500 pounds with an average weight of 2 lbs/fish and a 10 fish limits = 125 tribal limits for the entire year. So I think a further explanation of how this is monitored for hook/line and spearing is warranted. So again I would respectfully ask:

1. How are those non-creeled tribal scenario’s (including ghost/non-registered nets as well as H/L and spearing) accounted for in the quota?
2. How does GLIFWC account for tribal hook and line angling as well as spearing? A 10 fish limit, with 3-4 anglers in the boat can add up very quickly, what is the creel process for accounting for them?
3. How many citations for non-compliance have been issued the last 10 years?

I dont really care cause I dont fish there but I cant understand how a treaty from 170 years ago trumps current laws. Guessing back then everyone could use nets didnt need a license for hunting or fishing could shoot or take whatever you want. Fast forward to now and there is rules for everything but they can still go by the no laws from almost two centuries ago. If they want their special amount they should have to get their ass out there and fish for them like everyone else. Pretty sure if anyone else tries to follow the laws of the 1800’s they would be locked up.

Sorry guess I got a little defensive. My bad. I don’t know why people havn’t had more conversations over the past decade.

I’ll take a swing at them.

Tribal angling is accounted for in four ways.
1) 2,500 pounds is set aside at the beginning of the year for angling
2) MN DNR creel clerks also creel tribal anglers this provides a known tribal angling harvest number. This usually results in another ~1,500 pounds being removed from overall tribal quota, this year of course that will be more.
3) A few groups that love to fish, self report their catch to me, it’s not much most years.
4) 2,500 pounds is usually enough, this year with the hot bite it’s not, luckily we are still 10,000 additional pounds under quota. More than enough to cover the difference not accounted for in #1. #2, and #3.

Spearing is documented through the same system as netting. A band member is permitted when they leave the landing. Then myself, creel clerks, or wardens sit there until they get back and we creel their fish and check in their permit.

Ghost nets:
Ghost nets have happened. There was the high profile incident a few years back. A mistake was made somewhere in the documentation. Those Band members were cited, and we made some adjustments to regs to try to never have that happen again. Then of course last year three nets were swept up by the ice. They were recovered. I’m kinda hoping given the extreme amount of angling pressure the lake receives and the fact that almost all nets are set shallowish, and near shore that if there were others out there they would be snagged and recovered.

I don’t know how many citations have been given. I can think of a few off the top of my head. We used to have size limits for spearing. That resulted in a lot of citations and was deemed unreasonable and had to go. For awhile we searched every boat! Also deemed unreasonable and that practice had to stop or I was gonna get beat up.

Is the system perfect, no of course not, no system is. There are still a few holes to fill in. Like last year when our creel clerk wage was still $14/hr and we couldn’t find enough staff. In the end I’ve done this type of thing a long time. I learned how while documenting subsistence harvests along the entire length of the yukon river, makes Mille Lacs seem easy. Then I came down here and worked for the DNR, often did creeling. Of those three I have the most confidence in the mille lacs tribal harvest report.

So in summary, hook and line is documented in those 4 ways. Spearing is the same permit system previously described I just didn’t explain it all to keep posts shorter. Tracking nets is a battle between accurately tracking harvests and being overly intrusive/obstructing opportunity. Currently we are very hands on.
This year we had a stated beforehand minimum staffing requirement or else no spearing opportunity would be offered or openings limited. It seemed to work, I didn’t notice any unstaffed landings issues this year. Harvest was slower this year than last and easier to track.

Thank you Eric for contributing to this thread. I appreciate you answering the questions. I have some questions for you. I am editing on my phone so excuse my poor writing skills.

Upnorth85 wrote:

“First, A 200k shared quota is feasible. Think in terms of exploitation rate. This years spawning stock biomass was 1,219,000 pounds. The quota in 157,500 = 12.9% This a very reasonable exploitation rate. I expect we will see a spawning biomass of ~ 1,400,000 in the next few years, bring that exploitation rate up to around 14%, still very reasonable and you’ve got a 200k pound quota. I’m really hoping for this.”

I still think this number is low considering according to creel surveys in 2019 1.4 lbs was released. That doesn’t include killed. From either side.

The biomass is collected by the state side using 52 test nets in the fall. The test also have a margin of error admittedly of 10-30%. So if a biomass dips 10 percent one year or increases one it may be that the lake is up or down 10 percent or it fits into the acceptable margin of error. When talking millions of lbs and a set number that can be harvested this number is kind of critical.
Is this how the tribal side come to their conclusion as well on the biomass?

“As far as quota, quick facts, the state has gone over several times. The split is legally suppose to be 50:50. The tribes voluntarily give a significant percentage to the state every year in good faith. “

Last time was 2019. I can not remember another time, but maybe there was. Not sure I would classify that as several however.
In 2019 the state went over by 5k lbs
Since then the state has “given back” or not harvested 127k lbs. The tribe has also given lbs back or not harvested according to the numbers.
Would it not make more sense to negotiate a 3 year number to allow harvest ebbs and flows through that time vs an absolute by year?

“I would love to see a two fish harvest for state anglers. 2 fish 19 – 23″ slot. This year this is not feasible. With the bite the way it is the angler harvest alone would exceed 250,000 pounds. Include the tribal harvest ~60,000 pounds, and you’re at 26% exploitation rate, not sustainable. I have nothing to do with the catch and release reg, not my call.

Hooking mortality: Hooking mortality estimates are actually very low for Mille Lacs. I just finished up checking some DNR data from last year, last May it was only 1.5% It peaked around 11% in early august. Overall it’s only ~5%. When I first saw the hooking mortality numbers I was also skeptical, it wasn’t until I did the math and saw these percentages that it seemed correct. This has been a cool May, I expect the hooking mortality correction to be less than 1%.”

Ahh my favorite subject.
Can you explain how this is calculated during the year please. Not that interested in what the studies have shown the percentage to be but more so how the number is calculated on a monthly basis.

Lastly with all the above said how did we arrive at the conclusion and go backwards that the safe allowable harvest would be 20K less this year vs 2023 when the state gave back 40k last year, the tribe gave back 15k, and we probably had a record low harvest or at least anglers fishing this winter.
Makes sense for the tribal side to want lowered harvest of 65k on their side as they have never reached that number in the first place.

Upnorth85 wrote:

I don’t know why people havn’t had more conversations over the past decade.

It’s my understanding that many people have asked questions that could have resulted in “conversations”, but they never got real answers to their questions from either side of the fence…. which I think goes to the lack of true transparency. Dutch summed it up pretty well on the trust issue. Jeremy just added some serious thought here too.

Personally, I think that here and now in the 21st century it’s time for the tribes to join the rest of the tax-paying, license bearing people of this country. What the tribes enjoy today is nothing but the purest form of discrimination that’s thrust on every other color or race of people in the US.

There is never going to be any “fix” to anything at Mille Lacs until the tribes are on the same plane as the rest of us.

I also think the 1,219,000 pounds estimate is on the low side as well. We reestimate previous years, every year, the assumption is that with another years added information we have a more accurate model. I expect that 1,219,000 will be increased between 1 – 4%. Not much but yes I think it’s on the low side. It results from the poor gill net results this year.

Using the reestimation method 2019 spawning stock biomass was actually updated to 1.5 million pounds. That was probably the 2013 year classes peak abundance and health year. Recruitment in 2019 and 2020 was poor if I remember correctly. So as 2013 yc has been harvested or died naturally new yc have not done well to replace those fish, not yet anyways. I’m optimistic.

The biomass is estimated using many more methods than just one years gill net results. Juvenile assessments, plumpness, catchability, probably others, I’m not a modeler. Those numbers over the last 15 years are all included. That way one years gill net assessment dosn’t have too much model influence. Because as you said gill net assessments vary.
We run our own models as well, but that MN DNR model seems to be the most accurate and we use that one for quota setting.

As far as giving back, or going over. It’s worth considering, but it’s not super straightforward. When quota is “given back” it dosn’t necessarily survive to the next year. Fish die naturally, and since we deal in terms of biomass, they loose, or gain weight. I do expect we will move towards some sort of going over/giving back plan. I’d like to see it happen the very next year, as ecosystems change year to year.
This type of plan could cause problems for our intertribal allotments, but thats our problem and we can deal with it.

Hooking mortality. I don’t know as much as I’d like to, I don’t calculate those. It’s pretty basic now that only temperature and released fish are the only parameters. Here’s my understanding, It’s assumed that X% of released fish die at certain temperatures. So in May water temps will range from 55 – 62 degrees, I think that will be about a 1% mortality rate. 300,000 pounds of fish could get caught this May (wild guess) 300,000 x 1% = 3000 pounds hooking mortality. It don’t know if this is calculated daily or what. When I get a chance I’ll get specifics and pass them on.

The reason we went backwards from last year was the total biomass estimate decreased ~10%. 120,000 pounds of fish were harvested, some died naturally, and the fish are probably slightly lighter than last year. But the 2023 year class was a bust, the juveniles were small and skinny in Oct. Their chances of survival is low. Nothing replaced those harvested fish. I don’t expect to see biomass increase for one more year when the 2021 and 2022 year classes start putting on weight and influencing the population.

Hooking mortality. I don’t know as much as I’d like to, I don’t calculate those. It’s pretty basic now that only temperature and released fish are the only parameters. Here’s my understanding, It’s assumed that X% of released fish die at certain temperatures. So in May water temps will range from 55 – 62 degrees, I think that will be about a 1% mortality rate. 300,000 pounds of fish could get caught this May (wild guess) 300,000 x 1% = 3000 pounds hooking mortality. It don’t know if this is calculated daily or what. When I get a chance I’ll get specifics and pass them on.

Thank you I am looking more for how it is calculated monthly.

The reason we went backwards from last year was the total biomass estimate decreased ~10%. 120,000 pounds of fish were harvested, some died naturally, and the fish are probably slightly lighter than last year. But the 2023 year class was a bust, the juveniles were small and skinny in Oct. Their chances of survival is low. Nothing replaced those harvested fish. I don’t expect to see biomass increase for one more year when the 2021 and 2022 year classes start putting on weight and influencing the population.

120k was harvested 50k less than what was allowed in 2023.
Those 2023 class would not be part of the spawning biomass correct?
So 2019 biomass was 300k larger than now but we had less allowable harvest in 2019 than today, but actually more because we could harvest vs this year where the state is not allowed because the bite may or may not to be to good this year.
See why we may be skeptical?
Since more accurate data comes out the following year after reassessments happen would a 3 year deal make more sense to allow harvest to happen during that course.

Jimmy Jones wrote:

<blockquote

Personally, I think that here and now in the 21st century it’s time for the tribes to join the rest of the tax-paying, license bearing people of this country. What the tribes enjoy today is nothing but the purest form of discrimination that’s thrust on every other color or race of people in the US.

There is never going to be any “fix” to anything at Mille Lacs until the tribes are on the same plane as the rest of us.

This^

Hmmm your right the 2023 yc wouldn’t be part of the spawning biomass. But the 2019 and 2020 yc would, both poor recruitment. No matter what the harvest level was in 2023 the 2013 and 2017 year classes were going to decline, both from harvest and natural causes. Those large adult fish havn’t been replaced as they’ve died. If you watch my youtube video you’ll see the population is skewed towards older fish, the fishery is still waiting on those 2021 and 2022 fish to mature. I made that video in Dec. before the model estimates were done. The minor spawning stock biomass decline was projected due to year class breakdown. This would have happened regardless of a 120k harvest, a 50k harvest or a 200k harvest. Though the magnitude of the decline would change with harvest level. I am probably overly optimistic that the 2021 and 2022 yc will provide us good SSB over the next 5 years.

“So 2019 biomass was 300k larger than now but we had less allowable harvest in 2019 than today, but actually more because we could harvest vs this year where the state is not allowed.”

I wasn’t around in 2019, but they didn’t know the biomass was 1.5 million. They made the decision based on 1.2 million pounds. The quota decision is made based on a bunch of different parameters other than just spawning biomass. mostly recruitment trends, but 2017 was a good year, so I don’t really know why. Looking back at a few years the quota makes perfect sense to me, certain years not at all.
We have loosened up a bit since 2019 and are applying higher exploitation rates to the biomass estimates, resulting in higher quota. The state has a higher quota this year than 2019. Had they known the biomass was 1.5 mil in 2019 I hope they’d have increased the quota accordingly.

Upnorth85 wrote:

Sorry guess I got a little defensive. My bad.

Upnorth85 wrote:

So in summary, hook and line is documented in those 4 ways. Spearing is the same permit system previously described I just didn’t explain it all to keep posts shorter. Tracking nets is a battle between accurately tracking harvests and being overly intrusive/obstructing opportunity.

No worries at all, I really appreciate your input. Just stating my opinion, but I think there is a pretty big discrepancy between the awesome and thorough job you/the tribe does creel surveying officially, and what is actually happening in practice. Particularly since most of the tribal harvest happens when no MN DNR is patrolling the lake or landings, and few if any cabin owners are there to witness either.

Any netting or spearing done outside your official process, which sounds pretty easily accomplished, does not get recorded. A few tickets have been given, which would indicate it does happen and there likely isn’t a good estimate of how often. And there is no recording of any hook and line harvest, just hoping that 2500 pounds of fish aren’t exceeded. Which if I lived by the lake with a couple good fishing buddies, could be exceeded before the fishing opener even started.