Thank you Eric! I wish our DNR was that straightforward with a reply.
Do the DNR and Bands do forage base assessments as well as prey?
As a fisheries biologist is there a preferred age ratio to individual fish species, so the age classes are more broadly represented?
Thank you Eric
We do a forage assessment every year. Forage is more difficult to sample, so it’s probably just used as an index to compare to other years. I’m not involved in it, but I can pull that info Monday.
For preferred age ratio generally speaking in Fisheries we’d like to see a bell-curve, but walleye populations don’t really act like that regardless of any human management action. @tuffguy asked about proportions by year class. I’m gonna calculate that asap, cause know I’m curious to break it down right to the %.
Eric when they look at the harvestable surplus do they take into account all of the other predator species that consume the baitfish population?
Is there ever going to be a point where the decisions need to start addressing the growing smallmouth population?
Or is this just Walleye?
Yes, the pike population is considered because the diet overlap between pike and walleye is significant. This is the reason for the current pike regulations. Harvest the smaller pike and push the average size pike larger. A population of less large pike consume less than a population of many small pike. Also those huge pike eat different prey than most walleye.
I don’t think there is any real concern about the effect smallmouth have on walleye. I’m sure they eat some juveniles, I’m not sure how many, or if there is realistically anything to be done about it. A lot of the system wide changes that disadvantage walleye are great for bass. #eatbass!
Oh you know what I could use, water temp reports.
It got hot again yesterday. I’m curious how much the lake warmed up. Cooler temps = less hooking mortality = open the fishery Aug. 16th = happy state anglers = easier job 
Eric very good information thank you.
Thanks Eric!!
Eric very good information thank you.
X2, very informational
Speaking of hooking mortality…
Mille Lacs is really the only lake where I hear about “hooking mortality”. People talk about hooking mortality with regards to higher water temp. If it’s really about lake temperatures, why do we not hear about it on other water bodies, like Red Lake? Or is it more of a case of the fish typically being deeper as the water is warm, thus causing barotrauma?
There are 4 reasons hooking mortality is such a topic at Mille Lacs:
1) High temps, I’ll try to confirm this but my guess is for the large MN lakes Mille Lacs is the warmest. Temps above 68 degrees have been shown to stress walleye. LOTW probably sees 68 degrees pretty late in the summer?
2) Lack of stratification. Mille Lacs is shallow and wind driven. It’s often similar temps top to bottom. No deep cold water for a stressed fish to recover in.
3) Pressure. again Id have to confirm this, but Mille Lacs location close to the metro puts it in a highly pressure per square mile category. A poop load of fish get caught and released. Making hooking mortality more of a concern.
4) Management strategy, Mille Lacs is unique with the tribal harvest system requiring a quota based management system. Hooking mortality probably entered the conversation back when angling tournaments were more prevalent.
?I wonder the temp/stratification dynamics at Red Lake, similar lake type.
I’ll get the hooking mortality estimates for May in three weeks. I’ll take a look at temps and make a post. My hunch is ~ 1%. Which for May hooking mortality is probably under estimated. Not to a point of concern however.
Tuffyguy, good questions.
The tribal harvest demographics are documented. I made a video harvest report back in December. It’s on YouTube. https://youtu.be/VAYFUOzRQHQ?si=6VollsONpdJkifzk
Myself, and the creel team measure, sex, and age ~25% of the harvested walleye. The rest we just count and weight. These are those results.
I can calculate the proportion per year class and report it as a percentage tomorrow. Cause now I’m curious…
Watch the video but I’d rather it dosnt get shared all over the internet. Or I’ll never be allowed to make another.
2000 fingerlings wouldn’t do a thing in a lake that size. They would likely all get eaten by pike.
Hit me up with any questions, I’m all about transparency and I’m happy to try to answer them.
Appreciate you posting, I have a few questions I hope you will share your perspective on.
Do you have any idea why the tribe is opposed to transparency in the co-management process? MLFAC and different media members have asked to have a silent observer in the negotiations and have been told that is a non-starter for the tribe.
How much does a tote, like the totes used by tribal members while netting, of walleye weigh?
In your video your graph shows participation this year of 94 permits. How many tribal members does that translate to actually participating in the netting process?
How is harvest monitored when creel teams aren’t at the landings or tribal members take their 10 fish limit by hook and line?
I’ve got those answers, but only for our Band. Buckle up, this will get long….
#1 The short awnser the FTC meetings are long, technical, occasionally tense and stressful. In my opinion there are too many people there already and we could have better conversations with less. Every year politians are invited, but I always oppose any more people attending. Not what you wanted to hear, but in this case I believe less people would = smoother discussion. I don’t trust outside media to fairly report, I could give many examples of this. Even the person I trust the most, Steve J. regularily gives incorrect, information in his videos. I believe inadvertingly or even subconciously but always skewed. Outdoor News regularily publishs articles with conviently missing information. Hard pass from me.
#2 The totes vary from 0 to 120 pounds. The rule for netting is one net per tote. That statistic is important for my reports. The avg. pounds per net in 2024 was 44.4 pounds per net. More on that system for #3
#3 Your question seems a bit confused so I’ll just explain the permit process.
in 2023 94 different Band members were issued 155 permits and set 240 nets. A new permit is issued each night. The process:
– Each day at noon I send out a notification declaring which landing will be open to our Band. Band members call and get signed up for the night. I do this in case there is a permit limit for the night.
– We staff the landing with myself, 2 game wardens, and a invasive species boat washer. Each Band member is issued a permit for the night, this allows them to set 2 nets. I take the carbon copied permit and tag each net.
– The next morning I have a stack of the carbon copied permit. Nets are pulled and I check them back in by checking off the net tags. Then the carbon copy goes to the creel team.
– Each Band member must get their fish checked at the creel trailer before they leave the landing. I know we’ve creeled everyone once we’ve entered the info on every carbon copied permit. Then I compile that data that afternoon.
#4 I know why your asking this and I expect is due to the misconception that band members are not getting their fish counted. It is very rare that a landing is open but unstaffed. I think it happened a few times last year, we were having a hard time hiring creel clerks becuase of the low wage we offered. I don’t think it happened at all this year. But we have the carbon copied permit and if a landing was used but unstaffed that band member would be required to stop at a staffed landing and get creeled. If not, they are non-complaint and subject to citations. Mille Lacs during tribal harvest is the most heavily patroled fishing season in existance.
I have an example: I monitor the mille lacs facebook pages during harvest to watch out for potential incidents. We have had some serious violent threating calls etc. Last year I saw a post while I was sitting at Cedar Creek that read something like “I was at Cedar Creek and the netters are driving away totes full of fish that arn’t being checked!”
I was like huh? I’m here right now checking permits. Our staff dosn’t wear beige shirts like DNR nerds. I say I look more like a pirate than a biologist on the landings.
Again, I was very impressed with the tribal system when I started this job. It provides shockingly accurate harvest data. The MN DNR and various politians have sent staff to observe our process. They finally stopped when their observation data matched 100% with our report. I would no longer allow outside folks into our creel trailer, I take pride in our harvest reporting system and would be offended if they felt the need to double check us again. Any extra funding or energy would be better spent with more rigorous state angler creeling estimates.
Currently the tribal angling harvest only is registered by the DNR creel clerks and a few band memebers that self report. The Bands are usually 10,000+ pounds under quota and band member angling is pretty minimal. One year we tracked it best we could and it was like 1,500 pounds. So we reallocated our staff efforts.
Tuffyguy, I got some of the numbers you asked for. Percentage of total MATURE biomass broken down by year class. Just a screen shot of my computer, hopefully its readable.
As far as avg size 2013 yc fish, I’ll have to find that later.
Screenshot-2024-05-20-123619.jpg
Upnorth,
Thanks for the info. I have some questions.
1. Prior to the court case over treaty rights the lake had normal walleye regulations when compared to other big walleye fisheries and the lake was fine. When comanagement became a thing due to the court case and the tribe was awarded control of the ‘comanagement’ that all changed and we are now on several years where the dnr has had catch and release regs or restrictions so tight it may as well be catch and release. What changed to make super tight restrictions needed? I know the dnr is quick to name invasives and climate change as the reason but keep in mind most of the big walleye fisheries in the state have those factors as well and regulations have remained mostly unchanged.
2. How are the population estimates done and how do they compare to how it is done in the rest of the state?
3. How many fish is the 1.2M lbs of biomass of spawners? Like 500,000ish? Seems extremely low based on observations and some basic math.
4. Does the state allow a certain percentage of harvest of spawners on other lakes in the state the way mille lacs does?
5. What is more important for the fishery, survival of YOY fish or biomass of spawners?
6. Did the tribes struggle to get their desired catch by nets before the courts awarded them the power to control the comanagement of the lake?
#1 A few things have changed: first and most impactful. Mille Lacs has gone through an entire system change. The productivity changed first from the septic tanks being cleaned up which where basically fertilizing the lake with Nitrogen. Then zebra mussels finished filtering that lake to gin clear, add spiny water flea and higher water temps and you’ve have reduced YOY recruitment capacity no matter what management does. That lake would never support the large harvests of the 80’s and 90’s Also look into the 1988 year class, that unusual boom yc drove that fishery for a decade. Other large MN lakes have not experienced these changes to the same degree. They just havn’t, Mille Lacs gets urine warm, and I’ve never seen zebra mussel densities like this, it’s bananas.
Second there is a large tribal fishery on Mille Lacs, the tribes are rightfully exercising their treaty rights. That 60,000 pounds needs to be considered. If the state had say a two fish limit and took 250,000 pounds + the tribes 60,000 pounds that is not sustainable. Lastly I’d like to point out that the state hasn’t even come close to their quota in the last two years. Both years the regs could have been more relaxed. That has nothing to do with the tribes. Figure out a better creel system and regulation scheme. I’d like to see mandatory reporting by guides and launches. Track the angler harvest closer and adjust regulations accordingly.
#2 We do population estimates two ways, one is a model that incorporates age class structure, gill-net assesment data, electroshocking juvenile assesment data, catchability, body condition, and probably a number of other things. We also do a huge mark recapture tagging study every five years to “proof” the model with more hands on real world data. I don’t know how other lakes do it.
#3 Yeah it’s right around 500,000 fish. It includes some pretty small males if that is what is throwing you off. There’s probably another 300,000 immature fish 13 – 15″.
#4 Not sure what you mean
#5 in my opinion in Mille Lacs its YOY survival since that seems to be the bottleneck. Of course they are connected at least to some degree, and really connected if the spawning biomass get low. Not everyone would agree with me on that.
#6 It’s my understanding that netting was illegal before the court case? Of course it was happening, but under the table. Now we celebrate exercising treaty rights. A seat at the management table is important to the tribes especially on a lake that a significant portion is adjacent to the Mille Lacs Reservation. The history of the 1837 and 1854 Treaties and their importance to the Ojibwe people should not be understated. Remember they gave up 5+ million acres, but retained the right to hunt, fish, and gather, and to manage those activities for themselves. I am grateful to be a part of it. I run an elder ride program and a youth harvest in the fall. It’s the most important thing I do professionally.
100 years from now they will still be arguing about Mille Lacs. As long as neither side trusts the other nothing is changing. FWIW, the Mn DNR likely trusts the bands DNR, but Mn anglers don’t trust either one.
I’ve got questions for you guys.
What kinda water temp/water levels are you seeing?
There has been a fair bit of windy and rainy weather is the water clarity more cloudy?
How does this mayfly hatch compare to other years?
Did the bite shut off? Fish feeding on mayflys?
I’ll be down tuesday to do the spring juvenile assessment (1 and 2 year olds). I’ll let you know how it goes. The 2022 yc (2yr old) should be a good showing.
100 years from now they will still be arguing about Mille Lacs. As long as neither side trusts the other nothing is changing. FWIW, the Mn DNR likely trusts the bands DNR, but Mn anglers don’t trust either one.
But if the Minniesota DNR was as straight forward and forth coming as Eric has been much of this distrust might be abated.
But the DNR seems to think we’re all a bunch of hicks that couldn’t possibley understand this subject.
I was out there last Fri/Sat and observed 57 degree water temps and 58.5 when I left on Sat. East side of the lake.
There was a bug hatch but it wasn’t mayflies. They were those really small white ones. Maybe they are called midges? I don’t know.
The mayfly and lake fly hatches are coming. Sometimes they are biblical. Downright disgusting.
The mayfly and lake fly hatches are coming. Sometimes they are biblical. Downright disgusting.
Decades ago I remember them getting snowplows out to clear off the roads.
Decades ago I remember them getting snowplows out to clear off the roads.
They still do that along the west side of the lake on hwy 169! Its so gross
due to the misconception that band members are not getting their fish counted. It is very rare that a landing is open but unstaffed. I think it happened a few times last year, we were having a hard time hiring creel clerks becuase of the low wage we offered. I don’t think it happened at all this year. But we have the carbon copied permit and if a landing was used but unstaffed that band member would be required to stop at a staffed landing and get creeled. If not, they are non-complaint and subject to citations.
It has been documented, and I’ve personally been to unstaffed landings in years past. And there’s been cases of undocumented “ghost” nets swept away by the ice, which means they were operating outside of your carbon copy/registered process.
1. How are those non-creeled scenario’s accounted for in the quota? H
2. How does GLIFWC account for tribal hook and line angling as well as spearing? A 10 fish limit, with 3-4 anglers in the boat can add up very quickly, what is the creel process for accounting for them?
3. How many citations for non-compliance have been issued the last 10 years?
If I thought you were genuinely interested in answers to those questions I’d gladly provide answers. But I’m guessing, and I expect most would agree with me that you’re not looking for answers to questions but an argument, something I don’t have the time nor energy for.
Here’s one anyways: Tribal angling is accounted for in four ways.
1) 2,500 pounds is set aside at the beginning of the year for angling
2) MN DNR creel clerks also creel tribal anglers this provides a known tribal angling harvest number
3) A few groups that love to fish, self report their catch to me, it’s not much most years.
4) 2,500 pounds is usually enough, this year with the hot bite probably not, luckily we are still 10,000 additional pounds under quota. More than enough to cover the difference not accounted for in #1. #2, and #3.
What more can you ask for, this is significantly more rigorous than the avg. state angler?
Note: the error bars on the state angler creel estimates are so large any of this scrutiny would be better redirected there if the worry was truly accurately documenting harvest.
So helpful until the hard questions come out.
As far as the mayfly/bug hatches I don’t know much about them at all?
I’m hoping they provide some food for these hungry fish.
I’m also wondering if they will provide an alternative food source to cannibalism this year coinciding well with juvenile walleye development.
I’m curious if this years; rate of water temp warming + bug hatches + lower water clarity could result in higher juvenile success than last year.
I would think, and hope so.
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