Mille Lacs BS

I asked the question about why comanagement was required and had some time and did some digging and found this article interesting.

https://www.messagemedia.co/millelacs/news/tribal/co-management-who-controls-mille-lacs/article_75554f30-a6a3-11e2-87a8-001a4bcf6878.html

This section from the article was stuck out to me:

‘The decision established protocols for the exchange of fisheries information, for calculating harvestable surplus levels, for coordinating scientific investigations, and for resolving disputes.

The tribes and state agreed to mediate disputes, and if mediation fails, either party can ask the court to resolve the matter.‘

The DNR is clearly coming up with justification that is BS just in order to cooperate with the tribes and the comanagement plan. Maybe it’s time for us to take a different approach and push the dnr to get some stones and push back on the tribes on harvest quotas, harvest data, etc. There is no way they truly believe the info they are providing us. It’s time for them to admit the DNR doesn’t agree with the tribes and if the tribes won’t cooperate take it to mediation.

We aren’t going to get netting stopped. I think we should be focusing on our allowable harvest because netting is going to be what it is.

It is clear the lake is healthy and can handle some harvest and some harvest would probably actually be good to prevent another canabilism situation from happening. Bitcing about netting, hooking mortality, the dnr’s bs justifications, etc etc isn’t going to get any changes. That’s been tried and tried. Might be time to call them on their bull and tell them to man up to the tribes and get a fair shake at the comanagement harvest allotments or just get it back in court and work to get the comanagement dropped completely.

It’s been 10 years of co-management. It clearly is not working.

FinnyDinDin wrote:

We aren’t going to get netting stopped. I think we should be focusing on our allowable harvest because netting is going to be what it is.

It is clear the lake is healthy and can handle some harvest and some harvest would probably actually be good to prevent another canabilism situation from happening. Bitcing about netting, hooking mortality, the dnr’s bs justifications, etc etc isn’t going to get any changes. That’s been tried and tried. Might be time to call them on their bull and tell them to man up to the tribes and get a fair shake at the comanagement harvest allotments or just get it back in court and work to get the comanagement dropped completely.

I’m all for it. Honest question though do you really think anyone at the DNR or state level for that matter really cares at this point and just how would we go about this. Again I actually agree with you just not sure what it would look like.

There is no way they truly believe the info they are providing us. It’s time for them to admit the DNR doesn’t agree with the tribes and if the tribes won’t cooperate take it to mediation.

I think the only problem with this is the DNR is run by the commissioner, who is appointed by a Governor who is bought and paid for by the tribes and the teacher’s union.

John I think it’s worth a shot.

If they really can’t do anything and/or don’t care they should stop wasting our tax payor money on it. The dnr sends people to these meetings, nets the lake for walleye assessments, pays for third party assessments, pays for creel surveyors…the list goes on and on and all of that costs time and money and that money comes from tax payers.

If their hands are tied and they don’t want to stir up the tribe just come out and be honest. Tell us the comanagement with the tribes restricts them so much that they really don’t have a say. Just make the lake catch and release only and say it will stay that way until the tribes want to come to a fair negotiation on harvest.

Maybe that would bring some attention and progress to the situation. Seems like a better solution than blowing smoke up our azz and spending tons of tax payor dollars in the process when the end result seems to pretty much stay them same.

FinnyDinDin wrote:

Maybe it’s time for us to take a different approach and push the dnr to get some stones and push back on the tribes on harvest quotas, harvest data, etc. There is no way they truly believe the info they are providing us. It’s time for them to admit the DNR doesn’t agree with the tribes and if the tribes won’t cooperate take it to mediation.

We aren’t going to get netting stopped. I think we should be focusing on our allowable harvest because netting is going to be what it is.

While I agree with you, that will never happen without some significant whistleblower or something of the sort that blows up the DNR’s BS loudly and publicly. Commissioner Strommen is a woke and weak leader, appointed by a woke and weak Governor whose Lieutenant Governor pledges allegiance to the tribe over the state she is supposed to represent. All of that to say, good luck but it ain’t happening even though it is right.

Tom schmitt wrote:

I think the only problem with this is the DNR is run by the commissioner, who is appointed by a Governor who is bought and paid for by the tribes and the teacher’s union.

I could let this one go, but I can’t…leave the teachers out of this one. He’s handily screwing us right now, too, and has been for awhile. Most are plenty unhappy with him and would be happy for a change. But this is BS for Mille Lacs. One of my favorite places to fish.

I’m guessing that any significant change in co-management would have to end up in a higher federal court again, which seems pretty much impossible given the decision already made by the Supreme Court.

FinnyDinDin wrote:

John I think it’s worth a shot.

If they really can’t do anything and/or don’t care they should stop wasting our tax payor money on it. The dnr sends people to these meetings, nets the lake for walleye assessments, pays for third party assessments, pays for creel surveyors…the list goes on and on and all of that costs time and money and that money comes from tax payers.

If their hands are tied and they don’t want to stir up the tribe just come out and be honest. Tell us the comanagement with the tribes restricts them so much that they really don’t have a say. Just make the lake catch and release only and say it will stay that way until the tribes want to come to a fair negotiation on harvest.

Maybe that would bring some attention and progress to the situation. Seems like a better solution than blowing smoke up our azz and spending tons of tax payor dollars in the process when the end result seems to pretty much stay them same.

You nailed it – essentially control the narrative instead of being the tribes’ puppet.

Let everyone know their ways are faulty, stop doing constant surveys paying for their scapegoats and whatnot. Publicly label Mille Lacs as a catch and release fishery for any non-tribal member…with the tribes as the sole reason.

gim wrote:

I’m guessing that any significant change in co-management would have to end up in a higher federal court again, which seems pretty much impossible given the decision already made by the Supreme Court.

Not necessarily, the DNR still is supposed to have last say, and could/should shut down the netting for conservation purposes, and a decade without basically any MN Angler harvest would certainly qualify as a conservation issue imo.

The Governor could say, we need everyone following our DNR management of the lake, if you don’t want to, that’s fine we will end every road project leading up to, and in your reservation and start building toll boths on those nice 4 lane highways we have pouring into your Casinos. Make a bigger stink and we will do it to every Casino, and see how the big fish (TI and Mystic Lake) react to the ML band.

Or the President could say the entire history of treaty management has been a disaster, I’m cancelling all treaties possible (like this one). All reservations will be up to the tribes to distribute their lands and assets as they see fit, but they are no longer in tax free trusts, and we expect a 30% cut of Casino profits, or we will open up those gambling licenses to every bookie, Vegas Casino or billionaire in the US.

There’s plenty of ways to achieve a goal that is right imo, without depending on the courts. But courts also reverse decisions regularly, even the Supreme Court.

Well lets do the dam thing then. Someone lead the way and lets go!

Riverrat wrote:

So there is a good population of walleye, and a good year class coming up, and a shortage of baitfish and food for the baitfish. Sounds like more <strong class=”ido-tag-strong”>walleyes need to be harvested to give the baitfish a chance to catch up to the next year class of fish from 2021.

Yep, this is what normally happens outside of Minnesota. Some states raise the limit in this predator to prey relationship scenario and others decrease stocking if stocking is a normal process.

I have wondered this for awhile, when can they start netting? Is it specific to the lake being declared ice out, or is it as simple as whenever there is access to open water in the spring its a go? Also is there a set date it has to stop at?

Mike wrote:

Also is there a set date it has to stop at?

My understanding is that they have to be done prior to the state opener. This year that is on May 11.

I could be wrong. Maybe Werm, Rip, or Jon can confirm that. They seem to know more about it than others.

From what I have seen over the years is that they start whenever there is enough open water. Some years there was still ice on parts of the lake. I agree with Gim that they have to be done by the fishing opener or once they hit their quota.

FinnyDinDin wrote:

How exactly did we get in the situation where co-management was required? I’d be interested to know the history of what landed us here.

There is obviously zero science behind any of it anymore.

How did we get here?

The State and the tribes had agreed to a reasonable allotment for the tribes but PERM sued in Federal court. Ultimately the case went to the US Supreme Court and they ruled the 1837 treaty was in effect and the bands had exclusive fishing rights to the lake. The bands have total control and whatever fishing we are allowed to do is due to their choice. We may not like it. But there is really nothing the DNR can do.

They have put nets in and lost them under the ice, so there is that. The lake is co-managed by GLWFIC and Walz. Period. The DNR missions narrative does not fit what has been happening at Mille Lacs for almost 20 years.

The mission of the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources (DNR) is to work with Minnesotans to conserve and manage the state’s natural resources, to provide outdoor recreation opportunities, and to provide for commercial uses of natural resources in a way that creates a sustainable quality of life.

WRONG !!!!

Technically nets don’t have to be off by opener. They choose to not have nets out there then which is probably a wise choice.

No start or end date specifically.

Nets can go in at anytime, most pack up and head back to Wisconsin before opener to avoid potential conflict with state anglers, they also can net in the fall, but I believe the ones that do are mostly the mille lacs band.

If they reach any quota for any species before walleye they have to be done, but that has never happened in all the years. I believe it would happen if the netting was actually regulated and had an official in each boat when nets are pulled.

Alright last question/questions… Can they go out of any access or do they use specific areas? I assume resorts dont let them use their launches?

ptc wrote:

The bands have total control and whatever fishing we are allowed to do is due to their choice. We may not like it. But there is really nothing the DNR can do.

It looks like you skipped over a bunch of posts before posting this response.
See posts from Bucky and me above.

If the DNR has no control stop wasting so much money, time and resources on it. Make it catch and release and be honest with us that they have no room to negotiate with the tribe. Make the tribes the sole reason the entire lake is catch and release for walleyes.

Mike wrote:

Alright last question/questions… Can they go out of any access or do they use specific areas? I assume resorts dont let them use their launches?

Any public access will work. But they concentrate on the north half of the lake for the most part in the spring.

Anybody else identify as Native American?? I mean all the same people making the decisions for common folks are the ones supporting co gender and those who identify themselves as animals in public schools and work places. Just identify yourself as Native American and keep whatever you want. Then this can go full circle to how ridiculous all this is with lack of common sense now days. How could they discriminate against one in the court of law?

The State and the tribes had agreed to a reasonable allotment for the tribes but PERM sued in Federal court. Ultimately the case went to the US Supreme Court and they ruled the 1837 treaty was in effect and the bands had exclusive fishing rights to the lake. The bands have total control and whatever fishing we are allowed to do is due to their choice. We may not like it. But there is really nothing the DNR can do.
[/quote]

I don’t think you read the court opinion correctly. As I read it the court didn’t declare that the bands have “EXCLUSIVE rights” to the lake
They declared that the bands can hunt, fish and gather completely outside of State regulation.
Meaning the bands could do whatever they wanted.
Then they came up with this comanagement feasco.

Good article in the Messenger about the questionable winter data being used for the modeling of Mille Lacs.

https://www.messagemedia.co/millelacs/something-is-fishy-with-dnr-s-winter-creel-data/article_f03562ac-018d-11ef-aeef-1bfb9325b612.html

Cliff notes version.

This year the state allocation is 91,550 pounds, only 8,750 pounds less than last years 100,300, yet it’s catch and release for the first three months? Last year there was a harvest the entire year, yet anglers only harvested 59,051 pounds of it (and 21,370 of it was post mortality – mythical fish).

I just don’t get it. This season should have again been a harvest the entire season – there’s still plenty of allocation. But this is where the catch rate multiplier comes in. The DNR raised the multiplier 50%, and that substantially increased the projected number of pounds of fish that they think anglers are going to catch this summer, and in doing so, put last year’s regs out of reach. One has to ask – why??

To me, having a harvest last year for the entire season was one of the biggest steps forward for Mille Lacs since the shutdowns began in 2015. I foolishly thought it was the beginning of a new era on the big lake – finally digging out like up on Red Lake many years ago. But now it appears it’s back to catch and release for the first time since 2020 and another big step backward as the DNR ups the catch rate multiplier – based on some very questionable data.

Ripjiggen wrote:

based on some very questionable data.

This sums up the ML situation in a nutshell. Everything is based on questionable data.

The Regs this year are really disgusting. I rarely keep fish anyway but this whole situation is just wrong.

….and a well written ending:

When dissecting all of this, I can’t help but think that if this particular set of data appears to be that flawed – how are anglers supposed to believe any of it? But as usual, there’s no choice but to accept the subsequent walleye regulations that come from it, and of course – the impact to the local economy – that also hangs on this data as well.

-J.

The local economy around Mille Lacs has my full sympathy, but due to the complete mismanagement by the state I decided many years ago I just won’t fish it.

I interned with MN DNR in college, stationed on Mille Lacs. I met some of the nicest locals ever; I also saw the horrors inside MN DNR bureaucracy, and it was very informative in my career choice to stay in the private sector rather than pursuing a state job.

When they say “biologists”, do they actually mean it in the plural or is it still one guy out of Brainerd office who studies mille lacs when he’s able? Because that’s how it worked when I was there. The number of biologists at DNR is very small. It’s a law enforcement agency first and foremost.