Mille lacs assessment

Just seen Dean posted this on their fb page about the meeting last night with the Lake Erie biologist, the DNR, and MLFLAC. Doesn’t sound like much was answered by this Dr. Vandergoot, who was supposed to be a neutral party, sure doesn’t seem like it me with how little he did out of 9 pages the MLFLAC had drawn up… Sorry for the guys that don’t have fb to be able to watch the video, if someone can figure it out how to put it on here that would be awesome.
https://www.facebook.com/AgateBaymillelacs/

I saw that and can’t help but shake my head. If the DNR sets up an Advisory Council, but then ignores all of their advice AND questions, what is the point?

The DNR, is like your wife from time to time. They hear what they wanna hear, translate that info into what they want to hear, and convince you you are wrong for doubting their thinking.

I really have a hard time with all these experts who have never set foot in the state or fished the lake or talked to the fisherman and residents. They all just regurgitate the same old information and figures the DNR feeds them.

Why does the DNR waste any time, energy, or tax dollars trying to change something they don’t have total control over? I’ve heard enough BS about the Bands negotiations, Powerless Advisory Boards, and whatever experts are going to conduct more studies or give meaningless presentations.

The DNR has about as much control over Mille Lacs as someone in a car with hands on the steering wheel, while a completely different group holds the keys and runs the accelerator.

The DNR isn’t going to beat the netting, warming water temps, invasive species, or angry anglers who think they “deserve to keep walleyes”. It isn’t going to end well for most anglers or resorts, and people need to quit kidding themselves that it is. Spend time and resources in different lakes and rivers, while letting Mille Lacs become the bass pond that it’s racing towards. Resorts will adapt to survive. People who want to fish walleyes should head elsewhere if they aren’t happy with regulations or fish populations (myself included)

BigWerm wrote:

I saw that and can’t help but shake my head. If the DNR sets up an Advisory Council, but then ignores all of their advice AND questions, what is the point?

Well then that is yet just another question they could add to the list of the questions that are left unanswered. It just goes round and round…

Dutchboy wrote:

The DNR, is like your wife from time to time. They hear what they wanna hear, translate that info into what they want to hear, and convince you you are wrong for doubting their thinking.

I really have a hard time with all these experts who have never set foot in the state or fished the lake or talked to the fisherman and residents. They all just regurgitate the same old information and figures the DNR feeds them.

Yes Dutchboy, that sums up what we have been “spun” for the last 10 years. We’ll see how this next year plays out. There now appears to be an abundant perch hatch so there should be no shortage of forage.
The mid summer walleye closure last year created an almost unbelievable sight. Looking out across the lake on a beautiful summer weekend and not seeing any fishing boats.

buckybadger wrote:

Why does the DNR waste any time, energy, or tax dollars trying to change something they don’t have total control over? I’ve heard enough BS about the Bands negotiations, Advisory Boards, and whatever experts are going to conduct more studies or give meaningless presentations.

The DNR has about as much control over Mille Lacs as someone in a car with hands on the steering wheel, while a completely different group runs the accelerator.

The DNR isn’t going to beat the netting, warming water temps, invasive species, or angry anglers who think they “deserve to keep walleyes”. It isn’t going to end well for most anglers or resorts, and people need to quit kidding themselves that it is. Spend time and resources in different lakes and rivers, while letting Mille Lacs become the bass pond that it’s racing towards. Resorts will adapt to survive. People who want to fish walleyes should head elsewhere (myself included)

Well?…okay, sure we won’t miss you then!

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I attended the meeting last Monday and prior to getting into his findings, Dr. Vandergoot said he had met with the dnr commissioner who advised him to only reply to four questions, which the commissioner gave him, and to limit his response to only the scientific aspect. He was not to add his opinion on how the data should be dealt with my the state because that would fall under policy. He was not to comment on state policy. Dr. Vandergoot would comment on what they did on Lake Erie but would not say what he thought should be done on Mille Lacs. Dr.Vandergoot said that Minnesota collects data by creel surveys, gill netting, and takes hooking mortality into consideration when deciding harvest limits, which is also done on several large lakes. It was not that Dr. Vandergoot didn’t have ideas on what should be done, but he was told not to discuss them with us. What I believe happened was another dog and pony show so that the dnr could say that they aren doing similar things to what other states are doing with their fisheries. What the dnr does with the data falls under policy and they don’t care what others think about the policy because they know what’s best. It’s really to bad that the dnr wasted the time and effort of Dr. Vandergoot and the people on his committee. He obviously could have offered us some valuable insist on how to address Mille Lacs problems.

Whats the next step?

Next step to to stop traffic on 35w.

Not joking.

Protest outside DNR headquarters in St. Paul. Protest on 169 in onamia before the next big event at the casino.

Again, not joking. No one is listening.

While nobody is listening nobody will protest either. You can organize it, publicize it and you might get 50 people , depending on the weather. The nicer the weather the fewer the people. I suppose a person could recruit the “professional protesters” to add numbers. But then if somebody asked them about Mille Lacs the response might be…..”What? Where is that?” Be a gamble for sure.

The best chance might be for one of us to win the Powerball and donate a million bucks for a ad campaign.

When the DNR got caught negotiating backroom deals is when the heat should have been turned up on them with public embarrassment. But it wasn’t……another lost opportunity I guess.

Remember……they don’t fear public opinion, they fear TRANSPARENCY.

Thanks for that. You’re right. I got what I expected. I guess nobody’s listening because nobody up there, and here, really cares.

Protest for transparency. Protest for answers. Protest for a dialogue with the commish.

Some lawmakers are now showing interest, but it’s a far cry from what is needed.

biggill wrote:

Thanks for that. You’re right. I got what I expected. I guess nobody’s listening because nobody up there, and here, really cares.

That’s where your dead wrong biggill. Pretty much everybody “up there” cares, and more so than anyone here including you and me.

I was being facetious because I knew the response I’d get. But it rings with truth.

It seems they’ve done everything possible to this point. The question I see here and hear on the radio, over and over and over and over, WHATS NEXT?

Well, what’s next?

Whats next is more of the same. Legally the state hamstrung itself so court battles have just proved expensive and futile.The Federal government has no appetite right now to get involved, they are to involved with a wall and something called dreamers.

So that leaves the sportsman to combat it alone. A drive up HWY 169 will show you a billboard promoting Walleye fishing on Leech Lake. It’s says something to the effect of “come here and catch & keep a Walleye”. Like I mentioned, something short of a big ad campaign forcibly dragging the public into seeing whats happening won’t get them involved. I’m talking at least 10 billboards leading up to Mille Lacs from every hi-way that leads there, both Mille Lacs & Hinkley. Those billboards need to speak of wanton waste, addictions to gambling, meetings behind closed doors by elected and appointed officials, amount of lands taken off the tax roles, amount of dollars spent by the counties providing services to sovereign nations. We need to make it uncomfortable for people to drive up the hi-ways to get to the place. All the while we will need to battle these actions in court. So you can see that it takes major dollars to fight the fight. And then the second thing would be to do the same to the Wisconsin Bands, hit them economically until their people tell them to stay home.

I have another question……….lets say these tactics were successful in getting the gill nets out or at the very least not during spawn, would you have the stomach to see the other lakes in the treaty netted? Right now they don’t mess with the other lakes much. However they certainly would step up and net their allowable quota out of each and every lake. You OK with that? Or is this just a “Mille Lacs” thing?

Lots of things going on here. Lots of money to be spent. Lots of boats filling the Casino parking lots, lots of tribal laughing going on as this is discussed year after year.

biggill wrote:

I was being facetious because I knew the response I’d get. But it rings with truth.

It seems they’ve done everything possible to this point. The question I see here and hear on the radio, over and over and over and over, WHATS NEXT?

Well, what’s next?

Quite honestly people get tired… banging your head against the wall for so long, starts to hurt. Heck, nobody had done more for exposure than Steve Fellegy and he used to post his ideas here and he was run off this site by a supposed fisherman ??? It’s hard to fight the battle when you find your fellow soldiers and government representation can turn out to be the enemy. Dog and pony show pretty much sums up Landwehrs gag.

big_g wrote:

Heck, nobody had done more for exposure than Steve Fellegy and he used to post his ideas here and he was run off this site by a supposed fisherman ???

He was not run off this site. When people opposed his views he couldn’t handle it.

He was a very passionate guy highly motivated to make a positive difference. The problem was that he could not work with people of differing views. The goal might be the same but how you get there was not agreed upon by all.

big_g wrote:

Quite honestly people get tired… banging your head against the wall for so long, starts to hurt.

Yep, that now has become a notable response. And it is true. Furthermore, I think there is a growing contingent (myself included) that somehow thinks the DNR is inaccurate in their population estimates. Each year waiting/hoping that they will come out and admit “oh…we were wrong, there are more walleyes in there than we thought”. I think this is the main stickler with Dean Hanson (from the story link above) among other’s that question the placement of the DNR survey nets.

And then of course there are those (myself included) that are waiting/hoping that the population rebounds if in fact it has dwindled, back to a level that can support some catch and harvest, rather than C&R or midsummer closures.

The one thing the DNR has trumpeted was this huge 2013 year class.

Dutchboy wrote:

lets say these tactics were successful in getting the gill nets out or at the very least not during spawn, would you have the stomach to see the other lakes in the treaty netted? Right now they don’t mess with the other lakes much. However they certainly would step up and net their allowable quota out of each and every lake. You OK with that? Or is this just a “Mille Lacs” thing?

This is a very good point. They have already started pressing the issue by netting Gull Lake. Havent heard a thing about what came of that since. I believe they were issued tickets, but doubt they were enforced fearing the outcome of a court battle.

biggill wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>big_g wrote:</div>
Heck, nobody had done more for exposure than Steve Fellegy and he used to post his ideas here and he was run off this site by a supposed fisherman ???

He was not run off this site. When people opposed his views he couldn’t handle it.

He was a very passionate guy highly motivated to make a positive difference. The problem was that he could not work with people of differing views. The goal might be the same but how you get there was not agreed upon by all.

He was run off when he was positively promoting the 1st Championship Invitational 2016 BASS tourney… you should go back and look at that thread, then tell me why he left again ?

Steve’s final post.

Look–I will respond only ONE more time here–then I am DONE with this and every other site that “users” hide behind phony names–PERIOD!!–DONE!!!:
1. In this day of multi media/social media, are you really that dependent on a fishing report from a resort? IDO Mille Lacs page isn’t enough of a place to ask or a simple call to a resort to find out?

2. Resort fishing reports?–the resort reports come from people who fish–NOT the resort owners/managers who don’t go on the water much if any at all. Do you know in the past few weeks how many anglers have been coming through resorts and stopping to report their catches and details etc.? Almost ZERO!!!!!! (public accesses are full) But you expect an up to date DETAILED report from the resorts?

3. Lake Mille Lacs can NOT be a bass lake and walleye lake at the highest level at the same time. It can not work. Simple biology proves that….as biologists have PREACHED for the 50 plus years I have been on the lake to NOT do any thing to help the bass numbers improve–IF you want the walleye numbers to hold up.

4. No matter how much any resort or the like promotes the bass thing, in the Upper Midwest, there is no way to change a walleye fishing culture at Lake Mille Lacs much bigger than it is or has been in a short time to help save their businesses. The muskie thing is NOT a big deal at Lake Mille Lacs anymore as it was 10 years ago or more. If it was, the boats would still be out in rafts as they used to be-thus you can not market a fish that is almost impossible to find these days.

5. Before you blame anyone from up here for anything…know the FACTS and know the reality of being in the resort business in this “political” climate etc. Hind sight is always 20/20. It simply is NOT what you think it is or could be…or should have been.

Now– I am DONE with all you nameless gutless posters…..NEVER again. Like on most sites over the years …good ( expert) people quit posting since all they got back was to get ripped or at the very least–disrespected. My name is now added to the list of the people that got smart and stopped helping the nameless “users”.

“John23”??? “obnoxious” enough for you?? LOL No worry “john23’s of the word” –this “obnoxious” poster will never be heard from on here again.

I in no way blame him for a response like that, however it doe prove my point.

He was not targeted specifically but he took it upon himself to leave. I don’t even blame him for leaving.

However if you can’t even take the time to YRY to understand a different perspective, regardless of how offensive it might be, then you’re not going to last long.

Criticism no matter how destructive it is can be beneficial.

biggill wrote:

Protest for transparency. Protest for answers. Protest for a dialogue with the commish.

Some lawmakers are now showing interest, but it’s a far cry from what is needed.

You’re absolutely right, but there’s a problem.

The only organized group/voice (and we all know who I’m talking about here) that had (past tense) a seat at the table has burnt their bridges. They have burnt bridges with both the DNR, the Governor, and due to their tactics which to their own detriment have been well covered by the media, they have also, I believe, lost much of the support of even local lawmakers.

You’re right, there needs to be a protest movement. However, to have any voice, there needs to be a newly organized group that clearly distances itself and is SEEN by those outside of angling to represent different people with different values and interests.

If the goal is increased transparency and a real voice or even a seat at the table eventually, there needs to be a new voice that has a broad base of members backing it. The people that you need support from are NOT just “up here” local residents, you need to support from a broad swath of elected representatives in St. Paul and you need to convince them that ML is an ALL STATE issue, not just a concern of locals “up there”.

Also, this group needs to have the control and discipline to pursue goals constructively. This group needs to accept from the get-go that you are NOT going to be able to strongarm the Bands and tear up treaty rights that the courts have upheld. Any progress is going to only be made by a group that can constructively engage with the Bands.

That’s what needs to happen, otherwise, expect more of the same.

Grouse

Lawmakers don’t want this battle. Their future revolves around getting votes while at the same time trying to please the masses.

People are tired of this dialogue. I think most anglers are waving the white flag.

There are somewhere around 5.6 million people living in MN with 1.1 million licenses sold per year. So essentially, 1 out of every 5 people in the state of MN is an adult angler (I doubt many children are attached to Mille Lacs issues). What percentage of that 1/5th buy a license only to go out once in a great while or on a few weekends per year? Then, what amount of that remaining percentage actively fishes walleye specifically on Lake Mille Lacs and cares enough to exert the energy to repeatedly complain, campaign, and protest about what is going on? By the time you start crunching the numbers,
it’s obvious that far less that 10% of Minnesotans have ever fished Mille Lacs targeting walleyes with a passion.

To change something like a federal treaty, it is going to take more than a small fraction of a population or a handful of local representatives. At some point, the DNR and anglers have to team-up and decide whether this is something that will be actively fought, or whether they should “pull the plug” and quit wasting tax dollars on Mille Lacs. Anglers are too busy blaming the DNR (when they have minimal control)or arguing with one-another to ever change this. This in the middle BS helps nobody except the Bands. There are thousands of other lakes and rivers worth fishing.

I agree Grouse. Newly organized group is critical. It also needs a leader with excellent negotiating and speaking skills dedicated to this effort. I wish I could say I’m even remotely qualified. He/she would also need to unite all the different views for the same cause. The cause is simple, but too often people get too wrapped into the details to unite.

The other question I would have is what are you/we willing to sacrifice for this cause?

Will you protest in St. Paul on fishing opener? Will you forego buying a fishing license this year?

The state thinks it’s a pretty small issue in the grand scheme of things and we have shown very little to suggest otherwise.

If people like this idea we should talk about it more.

Go back over 20 years.. do a little research, tact and being nice were tried and ignored. The capital steps were sat on, the rigs were towed around the capital, the boat landings were occupied peacefully, it was all just ignored.

(the end of Steve’s post is your hint)

big_g wrote:

Go back over 20 years.. do a little research, tact and being nice were tried and ignored. The capital steps were sat on, the rigs were towed around the capital, the boat landings were occupied peacefully, it was all just ignored.

(the end of Steve’s post is your hint)

OK I won’t argue with you. I wasn’t there and the research isn’t as simple as you suggest. The research I’ve done doesn’t paint a clear picture of what has actually has happened. There’s no one timeline that paints a non biased picture. The media wants to paint our side of the story as the biased side.

I’m just curious where you stand.

What’s next?

I know no problems are ever going to be solved on a fishing forum but I’m just curious. I get the impression that you feel there’s no hope and no use in fighting.

There is no hope of battling in the courts. If you have a idea for a economic hit against the Mille Lacs Band then you might have something to discuss. PERM fought ’em, Fellegy fought ’em and now where are we? I think what G is saying is we have beaten our heads against the brick wall to many times to do that again. Having talked to G I can say for certain he is against whats happening now, but he also needs to see a different approach.

I say fight the dnr. I know they’re the pawn, but what else is there?

I’d hate to do it but if there was a fishing license boycott, I guarantee someone WILL listen.

Unfortunately we’re only a couple weeeks from buying a new license so it may not be really effective.

I’m willing to take a day off work or not but a license to attend something meaningful but it needs to make sense. I’m not the sharpest bulb on the tree so I’m open to ideas.

Maybe the best thing is to give it to the band, it’s already theirs in reality. Let them manage it as they see fit. I’m done with the tired argument. It’s defines the law of diminishing returns. There’s to many other great lake’s to fish to worry about a singular body of water that’s a black hole. I’ll still fish it, hold nothing against the band, dnr or state. It is what it is, and that’s not going to change.

Maybe I’m just hardheaded or not a quitter, I dunno. I’ve supported the other efforts and if something new comes along I’ll support that also. Living in the area I see many of the effects of whats happening up there. Fair or justified or not I don’t like alot of it.

Just as traditions of our past tend to dwindle down with each new generation, I’m actually wondering if the nets, spearing, etc will also disappear after some time. Have a uncle on the rez talk with more than rest of fam and he says all the youngins are soft nowadays, city-fied. Still are groups of older gents hanging on to it surely, but I wouldn’t be suprised that these traditions start disappearing on their own eventually. Might take a couple more generations, but it’s more possible than any of us here online posting the same thing over and over and over and over….