Livescope/FF sonar ban from tournaments

Michael I agree with you that in a tournament it is different. This thread has gone off the rails with a lot of posts about general fishing and that’s what I was addressing. Apologies if that wasn’t clear.

I think one of my first posts in this topic said I understand limiting the locator tech in local club tournaments. I think it makes a lot of sense for events like the Gil Hamm or Frank Schneider. But not on a tournament trail starting with the word “Pro” and that markets itself as being the best musky anglers in the world. And especially not making that change in the middle of the trail season.

tswoboda wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>grubson wrote:</div>
Let me know when you have an actual response to my comments or leave it alone.

Sure… The idea that anglers catching fish using LI somehow makes them worse anglers is laughable. But I get it, gotta protect that ego!

If you don’t wanna use it, then don’t use it – no one’s forcing you to do it. And I’m in that camp, I don’t have it on my boat and have no plan to add it. I don’t even have side/down imaging. And it’s not because of cost – I could go buy the 8 unit setup today but like you, it’s just not how I want to fish. But I do realize and accept that LI will make some anglers better than me who might not be without it. And as it gets more and more main stream I’ll be further behind the curve – just like these PMTT anglers who aren’t utilizing it. And I’m perfectly ok with that. I don’t feel the need to scrutinize anglers who do use it insinuating they are cheating or less skilled than myself.

Technology is more and more engrained into fishing every year – that’s just a fact and it’s not stopping. But the beauty is no one is forced to use it. So rather than tear down the guys who are using it, just watch your own bobber. I’m like a lot of others here and don’t like to fish staring at a screen. That’s why every year I spend more and more time in my waders and less time in my boat. No one is forcing you to keep up with new technology so quit pi$$ing on the anglers who do.

I see the FF sonar guys doing one thing, staring at their screen while spot locked and casting towards the fish. Anyone coming up and learning the sport with this tech will potentially not learn boat control techniques, drifting techniques, trolling techniques, etc. Will they catch fish? Sure.
They will not be as well rounded as someone who learned to fish the hard way though.

Im not pissing on anyone, just stating my opinion. Last I checked we’re all still allowed to have one. Technology is advancing everywhere and fishing pressure is off the charts in the last couple years. Without some sort of limit to it all I can see our future as fisherman changing drastically.
I think being proactive and educating people about the risks is better than sitting back and watching our fishing success decline.

I appreciate the response and respect your opinion much more than a smart aleck picture.

I’ll let this thread get back to rough fish (musky) and stay out of it from now on.

grubson wrote:

I’ll let this thread get back to rough fish (musky) and stay out of it from now on.

🤝

I looked up PMTT on YouTube
150 subscribers.

Instead of banning technology why don’t they embrace it and figure out how to grow?

If you have the best professional musky anglers in the upper Midwest take advantage of it.

30” fish who cares. Who wants to watch that? If I could watch the best musky anglers on the best lakes, with the best gear and technology catch giant fish and learn something from it. I’d subscribe and follow it. Get creative.

You need a following which brings sponsors to make money.

Tons of free publicity going on right now take advantage of it.

Hey wrote:

I looked up PMTT on YouTube
150 subscribers.

Instead of banning technology why don’t they embrace it and figure out how to grow?

If you have the best professional musky anglers in the upper Midwest take advantage of it.

30” fish who cares. Who wants to watch that? If I could watch the best musky anglers on the best lakes, with the best gear and technology catch giant fish and learn something from it. I’d subscribe and follow it. Get creative.

You need a following which brings sponsors to make money.

Tons of free publicity going on right now take advantage of it.

This guy gets it.

The good ole boys on the trail are fading away. Taking away FF sonar cuts the trail off at the knees for the next generation.

PMTT won’t be around much longer if they do things like this…

I ran into a college buddy today who is a huge Muskie and bass guy. He has one heck of a job and throws tons of money at his hobbies. This specific topic came up and he said in early June he added a 3rd livescope to his rig. I asked if he fished before seeing anything and he said “sometimes, if it’s a spot I’ve had success in before but more often than not I’m seeking out fish first and foremost.”

I didn’t get into any debates or ask him specifics about the half dozen tournaments he does a year, but he felt that having x3 units definitely has upped his success rate. He had no issues for it being a 100% C and R guy, and had even helped another angler set up the same thing. He did have some reservations about it regarding sustainability for walleye or other fish targeted for the table.

The PMTT has decided to ban the use of all live sonar/FFS for this upcoming season. They can be used pre-fishing. Here is the message from the director.

Forward Facing “Live” Sonar

As many of you know, we have been researching the Forward Facing Sonar – Live Sonar and other like technology’s use during PMTT tournaments going forward. We not only requested feedback from the PMTT Trail Team members to give their opinions and views but gathered data and information, from across the fishing industry and beyond. We explored other tournaments, tournament circuits, other species and consulted with people throughout the fishing industry.

Everyone at the PMTT is always striving for what’s best for the PMTT, its anglers and the resource, even if the decisions made are not the popular one or the favored opinion and methods. After we compiled all of this information, we then viewed it from several different angles. It was weighed out as to the positives and negatives, its impact either way on the tournaments and playing devil’s advocate with the scenarios, cause and effects with each of these and how they could play out.

While we were equally concerned with what the PMTT anglers wanted, this was also weighed out heavily as to if we are hearing from the vocal minority or the masses with these thoughts and opinions. Through this, we have concluded that going forward, the Forward Facing Sonar – Live Sonar and all other like technology, will not be allowed for use during PMTT tournaments. These will be banned from two hours before the start of the first day of the tournament, until the end of the last day of the tournament.

This decision is for the 2023 PMTT season and not a permanent fixture in the PMTT as it will be re-evaluated throughout each season.

We hope everyone is well and we look forward to seeing everyone on the water!.

Sincerely,

Tim Widlacki

Tournament Director

IMO if you’re willing to step up and fish a tournament, you need to accept that the playing field will not be level. Some guys are going to have FF sonar while some are not…just like some will have 125k boats with 400 hp motors hanging off of the back while some will not. Just because you have FF sonar does not mean that you will catch the fish… You’ve still got to make them bite. I’ve been just as sucessful pitching jigs using SI than the next guy using FF…and…I’ve gotten my butt handed to me by guys using FF sonar. My $.02

Good for them for taking a stance. I don’t really care one way or another but at least it is up-front, and they admit they will reevaluate each year.

If an angler doesn’t like it, they have every right to NOT participate in tournaments that ban these technologies. For every tournament that bans them, there will be twice as many others that do not. Find the format and rules that you like and fish those tournaments.

This is a interesting one. To be honest I’m a little shocked. Like Browndog said, there always been and will always be some that have equipment advantages over others. The other problem is the enforcement of it. I assume they are not going to require that fishermen remove the equipment from the boats. Just not use them. I’m not saying its not a good decision, I’m just saying where do they draw the line on Technology. It will be interesting to see how this effects some of those who were signed up to fish these events. I would guess this makes some fishermen happy and others unhappy. Either way their tourneys, their rules.

fishthumper wrote:

I assume they are not going to require that fishermen remove the equipment from the boats. Just not use them.

I think they have to be removed. That would be like having live bait on board, but just not using it.

The PMTT is really the only muskie game in town I think. Its not like walleye or bass or crappie tournament circuits where you could just participate in another if you don’t like it. This really is the only one.

Still can’t believe they did it middle of the season last summer after 1 team that figured out how to use it dominated 1 tournament. Great that they’re doing it before the season starts and willing to reconsider in the future, now just change the name to AMTT

Their first event is in a month at Cave Run in Kentucky so I guess we’ll find out if they can actually keep the units on the boat and just not use them, or if they have to actually remove them. I’m guessing they have to be removed. I wouldn’t trust 100 teams/boats to not use them when $25 grand is on the line.

I’m sure the head units can stay to be used for GPS/2D/SI but no chance they’ll allow FF transducers to be on/in boats.

I might be in the minority here, but I think this is a good move by them. Curious to see if it affects angler participation.

tswoboda wrote:

I’m sure the head units can stay to be used for GPS/2D/SI but no chance they’ll allow FF transducers to be on/in boats.

I’m not sure how much work goes into mounting and removing those transducers, but I have to think its not something tourney fishermen are going to be happy about mounting and removing a fair amount of times each tourney season.

mnfisherman18 wrote:

I might be in the minority here, but I think this is a good move by them. Curious to see if it affects angler participation.

I’m not sure you are in the Minority or not. It will be Curious to see the response from the tourney fishermen. I guess only time will tell.

At last weeks Bassmaster classic I believe every fishermen their had a Forward facing unit on their boat, Some at many as 4 of them. Only 1 fishermen ( the winner ) figured out a way for it to help him to win. For me the time to take a stance and limit technology in tourney fishing was long ago. Just find itg odd that this is the point they decide to do so.

A good way to shoot yourself in the foot for any sponsorship opportunities IMO. The tech companies are in the driver seat for the tournament world.

mnfisherman18 wrote:

Curious to see if it affects angler participation.

As of today, they have 63 teams registered for Cave Run in a month. I am not sure how that compares to last season as it only shows the results w/ fish caught, not the total number of teams.

PMTT Anglers: I got 2k in rods, 5k in electronics, 10k in $100 lures, and a $20-100k boat. And I take a week off to fish/prefish all the events in Kentucky, Wisconsin and northern MN.
Also PMTT Anglers: You can’t use those new 2k electronics, it’s cheatin’ and prices us regular joes out!

If you enjoy following these touneys cool, but for me alot would have to be done to make it a more pure sport, and tech is a part of that-I will watch the Twins today, a batter today can’t just decide to use an aluminum bat, a pitcher cannot just use whatever ball they want, this levels the playing field so we can see skill and not gimmicks. I get that baseball is not pure but it is much closer than fishing.

tim hurley wrote:

If you enjoy following these touneys cool, but for me alot would have to be done to make it a more pure sport, and tech is a part of that-I will watch the Twins today, a batter today can’t just decide to use an aluminum bat, a pitcher cannot just use whatever ball they want, this levels the playing field so we can see skill and not gimmicks. I get that baseball is not pure but it is much closer than fishing.

In July PMTT YouTube channel had 150 or so subscribers. I looked today and they have 176.

Baseball, is a billion dollar business. Since 1908 there have been many many changes that made it the billion dollar business it is today.

What is the goal of the PMTT? To grow the tournament, increase prize pay outs, gain more sponsorship’s, make it into one the most prestigious money making tournaments out there? Run it as a business model.

Or is it a small group of die hard musky anglers (30-40) who want to keep it like a club and not operate like a business? Run it like a club model.

A club or a business? There is not a right or wrong answer just an observation.

I heard about this decision last year by the PMTT. I followed it briefly, but it didn’t affect me personally.
I fish in a small multi-species league here in the metro. My partner and I have fished it together for 14 years. We’ve pretty much dominated the league since then, winning team of the year 7 times, 3 2nds, and 3 3rds. We fish all the same lakes on all the same weeks consistently each year. My partner and son do a LOT of pre-fishing. That’s our big advantage. Did we have FFS? Not until last year. Did it make a difference? Nope. We used it some in 4 out of 13 events. We troll a lot for walleyes and pike, and fish a lot of shallow slop for bass where the technology doesn’t work.
This year our league director banned it. I think there’s only 2 or 3 out of 14 teams that have it on their boats. We were pretty peeved at first, but after cooling off, decided it hasn’t made a difference in the past, and probably won’t in the future.
Just my $.02

guys are roaming the big basins in early summer, locating suspended fish, and making targeted casts to them. any pressure they received used to be limited to zombie trolling, and now those fish don’t have a refuge as casts are literally landing next to them while out over 80′ of water.

and here’s a good example of how it helps trigger strikes, even while trolling. they spot a fish following and then start to work the lure according to how the fish responds.

more and more, i’m starting to understand fly fishermen. it’s not the catching of the fish that matters, it’s how you catch it.

Michael C. Winther wrote:

more and more, i’m starting to understand fly fishermen. it’s not the catching of the fish that matters, it’s how you catch it.

Funny you say this. I’ve spent more and more time fishing in my waders or paddle-powered watercraft the last 5 years and significantly less time in my boat and that’s 100% due to the advancing technology becoming the norm on lakes.

Michael C. Winther wrote:

guys are roaming the big basins in early summer, locating suspended fish, and making targeted casts to them. any pressure they received used to be limited to zombie trolling, and now those fish don’t have a refuge as casts are literally landing next to them while out over 80′ of water.

and here’s a good example of how it helps trigger strikes, even while trolling. they spot a fish following and then start to work the lure according to how the fish responds.

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more and more, i’m starting to understand fly fishermen. it’s not the catching of the fish that matters, it’s how you catch it.

It’s disgusting and unsportsmanlike, ESPECIALLY in Muskie fishing. Nothing will change my mind on this, and I totally agree with you.

The results from the first PMTT at Cave Run in Kentucky are posted. They’ve banned the use of live sonar this season during events (they can be used during practice/pre-fishing days).

There seemed to be some question as to whether this live sonar ban would affect participation. I see that over 200 teams participated in the event, which is very similar to year’s past. So the answer to that is NO, it has not affected participation (at least yet).

A total of 25 fish were caught and released, 12 one day and 13 the next. I don’t know what kind of fishery Cave Run is, but that is not very many fish given that over 200 teams participated in the event.