Lead Bullets?

I’m not what I would call a hunter anymore. I’m not what I would call a tree hugger.

However, I’ve been reading and talking to folks that tell me about lead poisoning in raptors without a solution in sight. This is why I came to the hard core hunters. Looking for views and opinions.

It seems there’s an increase in (mostly bald eagles but other scavengers as well) following the spring melt and during deer season. It’s thought the gut piles are the culprit or should I say the fragments of lead in the piles.

I think tungsten is now mostly accepted in the fishing world keeping the loons and other birds from scooping up sand and lead for the digestive crops. But in the hunting world, there doesn’t seem to be an alternative for a lead bullet.

Apparently it doesn’t take much lead to kill a raptor. There is a chemical that if given early enough will save the bird however they are seldom brought in early enough for it to make a difference.

To be clear, I’m not against deer hunting or lead. On the other hand if there was another animal in front of a deer, I wouldn’t take the shot knowing I would be killing something other then the target. Lead bullets or the lead in the gut piles seem to do this in reverse.

Is there an answer out there that I don’t know about?

Sure, there’s an alternative – copper bullets. The first issue is the same as in fishing: cost. Copper ammo is expensive compared to standard lead.

The second issue is that many big game hunters don’t seem to care about raptors/buzzards/scavengers… That I can’t give any insight on.

I’m comfortable buying premium solid copper ammunition and I’m required to use this ammo in one of the wildlife management areas I hunt in Wyoming. It’s a choice if I want to hunt that ground.

I was listening to a podcast that this subject was discussed on, more so for condors but raptors were brought up as well. There was a study done on lead fragmentation of bullets in gut piles and the amounts of lead in said gut piles seemed to be the culprit. One state, the condor advocates were leading a movement for hunters to try non toxic bullets to try and curb the adverse affects of lead, the condor interest groups were or were planning on purchasing the non toxic shot and asking hunters to give it a try to see if it was a viable substitute with hunters being willing to try. It was a good story of both sides of the hunting/environmentalist line coming to an agreement to try something for the greater good. I will see if I can find any link to the studies that are not biased.

Solid copper bullets are the best option for eliminating the lead components but actually there are a lot of non-fragmenting lead/copper jacket bullets on the market that won’t leave lead behind….or lets say they are way less likely to leave lead behind.

Shotgun slugs are one element that can leave a huge amount of lead in deer gut piles. People thinking the big magnum rifles slamming fracturing bullets at 3 times the speed of sound into a deer is needed to drop a deer is yet another problem.

Honestly though, and I have given this a ton of thought, I don’t understand just how so many bullets can be photographed inside these birds that supposedly fed on gut piles when the high percentage of deer having been shot have the bullets passing completely thru the animal.

I guess I don’t always trust someone else’s photography when there is an “anti” agenda in the mix.

Specifically for deer, specifically for muzzleloader…I run 100% copper.
Not for the birds… Because of expansion and no fragments result of which is higher retainer energy
.. Which results in more damage and penetration.

Careful how much you listen to people who’ve never pulled a slug from a deer Brian.

How much tungsten you using for catfish and sturgeon? Got a grand laying around for tungsten?

My brother borrowed my rifle a couple years ago to do a hog hunt in CA. He was obviously forced to use copper ammo. He gave me the leftovers when he returned the gun and I found the Barnes ammo to be incredibly accurate. I now have made the switch in all rifle calibers. I guess I see copper ammo as a good compromise, but it’s still very expensive.

I’m kind of with Tom and FBRM on this one, I’ve only once in my life not had a bullet pass through a deer and it was an SST and it didn’t fragment at all.

The absolute worst bullets in the world for super high fragmentation rates are PowerBelt muzzle loader bullets. They’ll absolutely explode on contact with soft tissue and thin bone. These I could see finding parts of in deer piles but the parts would be tiny.

I use Hornady XTP handgun bullets in all of my muzzle loaders and drive those bullets pretty darned hard. Twice I have found the bullets in the carcass and after careful scrubbing each weighed more than 95% of the factory weight….very little loss. And what was lost in the deer went to the scrap bucket as I butchered. All other deer taken had complete pass thrus and the bullet was nowhere near any gut pile.

There’s the real world stuff and then there’s real world manipulation to achieve a goal. Think about it.

We lose a few wounded pheasants every year (Likely Grouse too) and whatever eats those likely eats shot. Some are steel and some are lead. In the past it was all lead. Most deer I have shot have been pass through because I almost always shoot them through soft tissue (behind shoulder) I have found rounds in deer before. Slug and ought six. They were intact and not splattered all over the meat so I dont have any experience with lead saturated deer carcasses.

FishBlood&RiverMud wrote:

How much tungsten you using for catfish and sturgeon?

No one’s talking about large sinkers or large jig heads here. If it can’t be swallowed there isn’t any harm to fowl that scoop up gravel for their crop.

As far as photos of large sinkers and/bullets in birds… I’m with you Tom. Totally.

When dressing out a deer, I’m wondering how many of us have taken the flesh around the wound and used a microscope or have done a spectroanalysis on the flesh to see just how much lead is going into the food we eat.

How do the copper bullets mushroom compared to copper plated lead?
Muzzle velocity? Since they are out there (thank you) I should use my friend google.

The whole issue of raptors and predators ingesting lead from hunting bullet fragments is just another attempt to bleed hunting to death through hyper-regulation.

First of all, nobody wants to see birds die. But it is not possible to avoid ALL man-caused bird deaths. Eagles are no longer endangered, so we have to ask the question since no one seems to be concerned about raccoons, skunks, and rats that eat all this allegedly contaminated meat, why are considering outlawing lead use because of eagles?

So now we move on to the question of how SIGNIFICANT is this problem in terms of overall bird mortality? Only a few studies have addressed this question, but the issue of bias is fully on display here. In looking at studies of overall mortality of scavengers and birds of prey, the #1 cause of early death in every credible study has been vehicle strikes. So outlaw cars then?

I want a science-based approach as was used in determining lead’s overall effect on waterfowl populations in the 1960s and 70s. Science determined that it was a significant cause of mortality and that the banning of lead shot would lead to population increases. Fine. But with eagles, condors, etc that cause/effect relationship has not been proved to be there when it comes to lead bullets.

Grouse

I’ve definitely had most of my shots pass through deer. Elk are a different matter – I’ve found my bullets/fragments almost every year. I do doubt the significance of bird mortality, but I don’t want to unduly affect the world.

Brian Klawitter wrote:

How do the copper bullets mushroom compared to copper plated lead?
Muzzle velocity? Since they are out there (thank you) I should use my friend google.

I primarily elk hunt and I now use the Barnes Vor-tex in 7mm Rem Mag. The bullet is designed to retain 98+% of its weight and almost immediately peels back and petals out. You can look them up. They are a bit spendy… but I believe they are one of the best options for relatively long-range hunters.

why are considering outlawing lead use because of eagles?

Hold on Grouski! This post isn’t about outlawing anything. I was asking for alternatives.

But you did bring up some good points…I’ll have to start looking a little deeper myself.

Thanks Sean…that’s all new to me.

I concur with Grouse. How big of an issue can it actually be when I see more raptors today than in my entire life? They are plentiful and seem to ebb and flow with their prey animals. Like they always have….

I can speak for copper pistol bullets, especially Barnes. They have minimum velocity thresholds for expansion to start. Barnes has done extensive testing on all of their bullets including girls bullets and ammo. As for plated bullets, I’ll assume that they behave much like a non-jacketed lead bullet….there’s no control on expansion other than velocity. Most all jacketed bullets designed for hunting have parameters that the hunter should follow per what’s being hunted.

The shooting and hunting industries have gone to the earths end making bullets more eco and environmentally friendly, but there are those entities out there that have “anti anything hunting or shooting” that will resort to all kinds of propaganda to further their cause. Due to this people need to be very diligent in what they read and how they interpret what they read.

Our deer camp in Alma, WI requires the use of copper. Tiny lead particles can transfer into the meat if bones are struck by a lead bullet. We are thinking of children eating the venison along with the birds eating gut piles/carcasses.

Sound like common sense HappyCampin.

Tom Sawvell wrote:

The shooting and hunting industries have gone to the earths end making bullets more eco and environmentally friendly,

Brian Klawitter wrote:

However, I’ve been reading and talking to folks that tell me about lead poisoning in raptors without a solution in sight. This is why I came to the hard core hunters. Looking for views and opinions.

It sounds like there might be a solution out there. Be a good enough shot to always have a soft tissue shot…
or
Use the more expensive copper bullets.

That’s what I was looking for!
There is a solution out there. Just if you want to pay the price for eco friendly until the price comes down and production goes up.

Yeah I know there are more bald eagles then there are blackbirds now a day. Pheasants are up 19% but still at a low. Jackrabbits, are they still in MN?

Still, more wildlife than I’ve ever seen in my lifetime.

Since I’ve learned that barn owls are dying because of the poison blocks used for mice, I’ve switched to traps/glue boards. Do I care about barn owls? Not anymore then I care about a skunk, coon or…snake.

For your enjoyment.

Lead base bullets

The article can be argued too Brian. Several references to bone is in this study and nobody I am aware of consumed the bone and studies using pigs that give “supposed” results in human consumption are statistically empty since humans were not used in any way to gather data or fed the food the pigs were.

With reference to the commercial packers that handled the processing of the game animals collected….how many hunters chose to process their own collected game animals? I know a ton of hunters who cut what they shoot simply because many of the processors won’t keep animals/meat and meat products separate.

But as this involves raptors as much as it does pigs, why haven’t these x-ray studies included un-gutted wild deer and or gut piles to show conclusively how much lead is remaining and creating a “biohazard”?

Some science-based information: https://www.raptor.umn.edu/our-research/lead-poisoning

I never heard of this before this thread. I don’t deer hunt but I did switch using bismuth shot for all of my bird hunting, even where lead is allowed. It makes sense to me that spreading lead pellets all over the place is a bad idea.

I’ve switched to Barnes Vortex also. Entirely by choice. At $2 a shell they are still the cheapest part of hunting! And since my family eats the venison too, I care about the lead fragments in the meat too.

I’m quite interested in the fishing tackle side. I’m probably very ignorant about it, but I can’t seem to find non lead jigs. Where do I find them? Or am I buying them and it doesn’t say? Does Northland make a non-lead 3/8oz fireball?

fishingchallenged wrote:

I’m quite interested in the fishing tackle side. I’m probably very ignorant about it, but I can’t seem to find non lead jigs. Where do I find them? Or am I buying them and it doesn’t say? Does Northland make a non-lead 3/8oz fireball?

You will usually know if it’s a non lead piece of tackle by the price.
DT

I do think the change in deer hunting culture should be considered as the laws of the future start to be thought about. When I started 20 some years the orange army, deer drives and buying boxes of 12 ga slugs @5 for a dollar to last one day was hunting. No one gun hunted from tree stands or even sat more than 1 hour opening day. I swear the whole season was constant shooting. Some drives would have one deer hit multiple time with poor shoots from all angles. Now it seems due to numerous factors the deer season is more like bow hunting and precise shoots at more or less manageable distance is the norm. I have nothing to back this up but it seems to be the bullets per deer are way down per deer killed. I guess my point is i have no doubt raptors die from lead and maybe hunters could afford copper bullets, as I personally haven’t shot more than a box in the field in the last 5-10 years, but also that it is a huge change for likely a questionable impact.

deertracker wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>fishingchallenged wrote:</div>
I’m quite interested in the fishing tackle side. I’m probably very ignorant about it, but I can’t seem to find non lead jigs. Where do I find them? Or am I buying them and it doesn’t say? Does Northland make a non-lead 3/8oz fireball?

You will usually know if it’s a non lead piece of tackle by the price.
DT

That’s what I thought. I can’t say that I have seen lead alternatives for jigs in a store such as Cabelas, BPS, Fleet Farm, etc. But I can walk into those same stores and buy a box of Barnes Vortex non lead shells. I’ve lost more jigs fishing than I have shot shells deer hunting.

I made the move to non lead for hunting, would probably do so for fishing if I had options readily available.

I won’t drive a Prius for the same reason I won’t use an alternative to lead…….a butt (tree) hugger I am not. I like my gas guzzler like I like my cheap
Lead crackalackabangboom slugs in the woods. I just don’t believe there is such a threat to either the environment or the animals. Have you seen the eagle population in MN ? There is no problem, it’s on the rise. It was an absolute rarity to ever see an eagle as a kid, now they are everywhere. How many of us pour lead sinkers? Shouldn’t we all be dead by now if we listened to all this nonsense?

I love that we can agree to disagree in this country and still have a beer without a tear. If we all believed the same thing, life would be pretty boring. I’m right most of the times anyways so just nod in agreement.

The spirit of this thread is for me to learn from you folks that hunt to the extreme (and some not so much).

Tom, I don’t think the fragments that show up on an x-ray is that big of a problem. Like when I was duck hunting and would spit out a pellet now and then. It’s the unseen fragments. The 5% loss of your weighed bullet(?)

I reached out to a friend that brought this up to me (by the way her hubby loves fishing and hunting and is very likely to be reading this thread now although I don’t think he’s a member), she passed my questions on to a person that has been studying the effects of lead for decades.

The amount of lead “experimentally” that would kill an eagle is amazing even if it was 4 times as much!

Here’s the response to my questions.

Are there any papers that show the effects of lead in gut piles?

There are papers and other sources documenting the presence of lead fragments in gut piles (Grund et al 2010 plus others).
There are trail cam data (and scientific papers) documenting many species of birds and mammals consuming gut piles.

There is a paper (Hunt et al 2003) documenting that pigs (surrogate for humans) fed lead-harvested venison (meat, not gut pile – harvested under normal hunting conditions) – had elevated blood lead levels

There are untold scientific resources documenting the impact of elevated blood lead levels in various animals, particularly humans

The seasonal pattern of lead toxicity in eagles is closely correlated with deer hunting season (Cruz et al 2010)

If the question is whether there is documentation of an eagle eating a gut pile in the wild and dying subsequently of lead poisoning, I am unfamiliar with one

Pass through shots – not quite sure what this question is, but think it refers to documentation of lead fragments being left behind when a lead bullet hits only soft tissue (ie – no bone)? This is shown nicely with ballistic gel. I believe there are are studies demonstrating this in carcasses, but do not have citations off the top of my head.The Grund study used thoracic shots, controlled to NOT strike the scapula, but did not control for rib strikes.

How much lead does it take to kill an eagle? Experimentally, 19-40mg of lead has been shown to be lethal to a bald eagle. One #6 shot contains 150mg lead (Fry 2003)

Sources:

Grund, M. D., Cornicelli, L., Carlson, L. T., & Butler, E. A. (2010). Bullet fragmentation and lead deposition in white-tailed deer and domestic sheep. Human-wildlife interactions, 4(2), 257-265.
Hunt, W. G.; Watson, R. T.; Oaks, J. L.; Parish, C. N.; Burnham, K. K.; Tucker, R. L.; Belthoff, J. R.; & Hart, G. (2009). Lead bullet fragments in venison from rifle-killed deer: Potential for human dietary exposure. PLoS One, 4(4), e5330.
Cruz-Martinez, L., Redig, P. T., & Deen, J. (2012). Lead from spent ammunition: a source of exposure and poisoning in bald eagles. Human–Wildlife Interactions, 6(1), 11.
Fry M. Assessment of lead contamination sources exposing California Condors. Species Conservation and Recovery Program Reports, 2003–02. Sacramento: California Department of Fish and Game, Habitat Conservation Planning Branch; 2003
Juli

Julia Ponder, DVM MPH

Executive Director, The Raptor Center

Partners for Wildlife │ Building excellence in wildlife rehabilitation

College of Veterinary Medicine, University of Minnesota

1920 Fitch Ave, St Paul, MN 55108

tel 612.624.3431

I will though myself under fire here as well. I was prairie dog hunting twice this year. Mostly using a .17 HMR. The doggies were left knowing they wouldn’t go to waste. Yotes, bald eagles, ground owls and even other dogs took care of the carcasses. Should I be using copper? Hell, I don’t even know if they make a copper .17 HMR! <<< and that was part of my original post.

How much lead does it take to kill an eagle? Experimentally, 19-40mg of lead has been shown to be lethal to a bald eagle. One #6 shot contains 150mg lead (Fry 2003)

I gave up reloading some years ago. Does anyone have a scale that they can weigh out 40mgs of lead a post a photo of it?

Deleted wrote:

How many of us pour lead sinkers? Shouldn’t we all be dead by now if we listened to all this nonsense?

I love pouring 4 oz no roll sinkers…well, to a certain extent.

I believe touching the lead isn’t a big deal. I’m not so sure that inhaling lead vapor is that big of a deal (when pouring). It’s more about ingesting lead and it traveling to a persons brain via the bloodstream…BUT Thomas, you have a very good point. Why aren’t there more people with lead poisoning?

Brian Klawitter wrote:

I will though myself under fire here as well. I was prairie dog hunting twice this year. Mostly using a .17 HMR. The doggies were left knowing they wouldn’t go to waste. Yotes, bald eagles, ground owls and even other dogs took care of the carcasses.

Good for you!!!

I did 11 days of dog hunting this year and went through 2,500 rounds of 223.

Not uncommon for an eagle or ground owl to be on a dead dog instantly.

Alternative… Fill the buggers with poison and let every predator die with them.

The ranch i hunt, they demolished an area with poison this spring. I made it my goal to reduce the population on the rest of their property so they don’t have to do it again. Fingers crossed.

FishBlood&RiverMud wrote:

Alternative… Fill the buggers with poison and let every predator die with them.

10-4 sigh…

….As Pete Gober, who heads the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service’s effort to save the black-footed ferret, America’s most endangered mammal, put it recently: “The incredibly dumb things we did 40 years ago are coming full circle.” Had I heard of a biocide called Rozol? I had not.

Rozol makes creatures that ingest it bleed from every orifice and stagger around for the week or two or three it takes them to die, attracting predators and scavengers. Whatever eats the anticoagulant-laced victim dies, too.

Brian Klawitter wrote:

It’s more about ingesting lead and it traveling to a persons brain via the bloodstream…BUT Thomas, you have a very good point. Why aren’t there more people with lead poisoning?

Because of changes made over the decades, a small sampling;
no lead used in drinking water plumbing
no lead in solder used with copper plumbing
no lead in paint,,,,,,, children were/are extremely susceptible to chewing and ingesting paint.